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So a d6 is equal to a 1d6, but a 1d6 is not part of a 2d6?

-Yad

Except the BRB states the differenc e between D6 and 2d6 rolls. D6s are to wound, to hit, vehicle pen, vehicle damage, armor saves, invuln saves, any save, and falling back, i.e. any roll that only uses a single d6 in its roll. Anything else is an Xd6 roll, and is not allowed by the Chronometron.

Yad wrote:So a d6 is equal to a 1d6, but a 1d6 is not part of a 2d6?

-Yad

No, according to page 2 in the BRB, a 2d6 roll is explicitly different from a 1d6 roll, and to re-roll a 2d6 roll you must be able to re-roll both dice.

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:So a d6 is equal to a 1d6, but a 1d6 is not part of a 2d6?

-Yad

No, according to page 2 in the BRB, a 2d6 roll is explicitly different from a 1d6 roll, and to re-roll a 2d6 roll you must be able to re-roll both dice.

...unless a rule specifically allows you to do so.

Just to clarify, why is d6 synonymous with 1d6? Again, I don't have my BRB with me at the moment, but if that text is not there you've got a problem when you start treating 1d6, 2d6, & 3d6 as discreet entities.

If you're treating the 2d6 as inviolate, meaning that there is no way a reference to d6 can refer to one of the d6 dice that comprises a 2d6 roll then I would not find fault with your argument. I think though that the Chrono rule should have read, ...re-roll one of his 1d6 rolls for each phase (this assumes that d6 and 1d6 are not synonymous)

-Yad

"Almost all of the dice rolls in Warhammer 40,000 use standard six-sided dice (usually referred to as 'd6')."

Edit: It's possible we're being too broad in our reading of the last sentence in re-rolls on p2. I could also interpret that as saying "when called upon to re-roll Xd6, you must re-roll all X dice" Chronometron is not calling for an Xd6 re-roll. It calls for the re-roll of a single die.

Yad wrote:Just to clarify, why is d6 synonymous with 1d6?

Math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yad wrote:If you throw any kind of Xd6 you get to reroll one of them. This would fall under the, later part of the following rule

This can not work. xD6 is a roll of xD6, not x rolls of D6, so you cannot re-roll part of it - you never rolled the D6, you rolled xD6.

(The obvious exception to this should be obvious; where x=1)

kirsanth wrote:

Yad wrote:Just to clarify, why is d6 synonymous with 1d6?

Math.

Obviously I meant within the context of the rules. If you're treating 2d6, 1d6 as 'things' you need to show, in the rules, that d6 is the same as 1d6.

kirsanth wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yad wrote:If you throw any kind of Xd6 you get to reroll one of them. This would fall under the, later part of the following rule

This can not work. xD6 is a roll of xD6, not x rolls of D6, so you cannot re-roll part of it - you never rolled the D6, you rolled xD6.

(The obvious exception to this should be obvious; where x=1)

Hmm, you can't say d6 is synonymous with 1d6 and then say that two 1d6's are not synonymous with 2d6 (Math )

-Yad

Yad wrote:

Hmm, you can't say d6 is synonymous with 1d6 and then say that two 1d6's are not synonymous with 2d6 (Math )

-Yad

In this specific case you can, because Xd6 is used as a jargon term in the 40k ruleset. It literally means something different than it does in other contexts; the 40k ruleset tells you that a roll of 2d6, or a roll of 3d6, is not multiple individual d6 rolls but one BIG roll, and all the dice which are part of it are 'joined at the hip', so to speak. You can't pick one up and re-roll it without picking up all the others and re-rolling them, too.

That is, there is a distinction made between rolling 1d6 twice, and rolling 2d6, which doesn't exist in the real world but does in Warhammer 40k.

BeRzErKeR wrote:That is, there is a distinction made between rolling 1d6 twice, and rolling 2d6, which doesn't exist in the real world but does in Warhammer 40k.

It exists there too.

It is impossible to get 1 on 2d6, but not when rolling 1 d6 twice. Doing that can get you two ones.

2d6 is (1d6+1d6 for a result of 2-12). 2 1d6's is (1d6,1d6 for a result of 1-6, 1-6).

kirsanth wrote:

It is impossible to get 1 on 2d6, but not when rolling 1 d6 twice. Doing that can get you two ones.

But the mechanic used for most rolls in 40k seems to indicate that you consider the dice independently as well as adding the total; that's why this argument crops up in the first place, and it has to be clarified that in 40k they're different things, even though in most cases they are treated identically. You can certainly roll a 1 with, for instance, a Bloodfeeder, even though it's a 2d6 roll.

I wonder if there is any rules language in the psycic tests section that would be helpful here. Doesn't perils of the warp say something about double sixs and double ones? If GW wanted there to be a distinction why didn't they say 12 or 2?

Edit: found it - page 50 BRB (5th) - "a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened"

Because you can be forced to take psychic checks on more than 2D6 (Farseers and SitW come to mind) and you perils on *any* double-1 or double-6, not just on a result of 2 or 12

It does not say may re-roll a(ny) D6.

It says may re-roll a D6 roll.

A 2D6 roll is a not a D6 roll.

kirsanth wrote:It does not say may re-roll a(ny) D6.

It says may re-roll a D6 roll.

A 2D6 roll is a not a D6 roll.

Thissomuch.

kirsanth, we agree too much.

kirsanth wrote:It does not say may re-roll a(ny) D6.

It says may re-roll a D6 roll.

A 2D6 roll is a not a D6 roll.

Right. I'm not disagreeing with you; I was attempting to present an explanation for why that was true to Yad.

kirsanth wrote:It does not say may re-roll a(ny) D6.

It says may re-roll a D6 roll.

A 2D6 roll is a not a D6 roll.

You may reroll one D6 roll.

A 2D6 roll is two D6 rolls.

A 1D6 roll is one D6 roll.

If you're going to this extreme then anywhere you find a roll of 1D6, it can't be rerolled because it is not a "D6" it is a 1D6. If you're demanding this precision in the language, you can't pick and choose where you apply it.

If you're going to say a D6 = 1D6, then 2D6 is D6 + D6 of which one may be rerolled and the rule works in all cases, 1D6, 2D, xD6.

No. A d6 is the same thing as 1d6, but a 2d6 roll is different. You accomplish a 2d6 roll by rolling 2 d6's, but it is not the same thing as a d6 plus a d6.

Not that this is spelled out in the rule-- oh wait, Nevermind.

rigeld2 wrote:

page 2 wrote:Almost all of the dice rolls in Warhammer 40,000 use standard six-sided dice (usually referred to as ‘D6’).

You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on. Roll the indicated number of dice and add the scores together, so a 2D6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for a score of between 2-12. Another method is to multiply the score of a dice by a certain amount, such as D6x5 for a total between 5 and 30. Finally, a combination of methods may be used, such as 3D6-3 giving a total of 0-15.

If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise.

There is nothing in the Chrono rule that explicitly specifies that it can be used to re-roll one die out of the 2d6 roll.

pretre wrote:A very similar ruling was made on the wolf standard which allows you to reroll all rolls of '1' on a D6.

Space Wolf FAQ. wrote: Does a Wolf Standard allow Leadership test results to be re-rolled? (p62)
A. No, as it is impossible to roll a ‘1’ on 2D6 – when making a 2D6 result you must count both dice as a single roll, not address them individually.

The rules here are clear, if counter-intuitive to some. A 2d6 roll or 3d6 roll is considered, within the context of the 40k rules, to be a separate and distinct thing from a 1d6 roll or a pair of 1d6 rolls. Chronometron only allows re-rolling single d6s.

Mannahnin said it better

Im a huge necron player and i would love to re-roll one d6 with the chronometron, but the simple fact is you cant.

It lets you reroll a SINGLE d6 roll per phase.... Ie reanimation protocol, a shot, dangerous terrain check, etc.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

You may reroll one D6 roll.

A 2D6 roll is two D6 rolls.

A 1D6 roll is one D6 roll.

If you're going to this extreme then anywhere you find a roll of 1D6, it can't be rerolled because it is not a "D6" it is a 1D6. If you're demanding this precision in the language, you can't pick and choose where you apply it.

If you're going to say a D6 = 1D6, then 2D6 is D6 + D6 of which one may be rerolled and the rule works in all cases, 1D6, 2D, xD6.

In general, that is in the real world, you're basically correct. The act of rolling 2d6 is the same as the act of rolling two d6's; that's just definitional.

But within the 40k ruleset, there exists a different definition of '2d6 roll', or '3d6 roll', or 'Anynumberthatisn't1d6 roll'; what I'm calling Xd6, for short. In 40k, rolling Xd6 is not, for the purposes of applying the rules of the game, the same as rolling enough d6's to add up to Xd6. You can't treat them the same.

In shooting, you roll a number of d6s depending on the size of the unit and what weapons they are using, BUT each roll is individual. If I'm shooting with, say, 30 Shoota Boyz, I do NOT roll 60d6; rather I roll d6 60 separate times. In 40k, those two are different. Since a Chronometron allows you to reroll a d6, if my Orks somehow had a Chronometron, I could reroll one of those dice.

If I'm Deep Striking some Stormboyz with Zagstruck, I do NOT roll a d6 two separate times; rather I roll 2d6. Again, in the context of 40k, those aren't the same thing. Since a Chronometron allows you to roll a d6, not 2d6, I could not use it to reroll Scatter. Why? Because Scatter is a single roll; the fact that it happens to use two individual dice is immaterial, for the purposes of the rules of the game.

Cryage wrote:Im a huge necron player and i would love to re-roll one d6 with the chronometron, but the simple fact is you cant.

It lets you reroll a SINGLE d6 roll per phase.... Ie reanimation protocol, a shot, dangerous terrain check, etc.

I'm also a Blood Angels player and I think a Necron player should be able to play it as able to reroll a 1 D6 out of 2 D6 when playing against me. It really doesn't change how I read these rules.

Necron Codex.
"A model with a chronometron can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase."

BRB
"If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."

The BRB sentence says you can't re-roll less that the full number of dice unless the rule states you can re-roll a lower number than the total dice. Meaning, if the rule doesn't specify SOME or ALL then re-roll ALL.

The Necron codex specifies re-roll ONE.

Leadership roll, rolling a 2D6, how many D6's are you rolling? You're making TWO D6 rolls. Re-roll ONE of them.

RAW, re-rolling one dice of the two dice you roll for a leadership test makes perfect sense. Is there any other example of a rule where any other interpretation would be more clear? Any precedent to think otherwise?

Nemesor Dave wrote:Leadership roll, rolling a 2D6, how many D6's are you rolling?

This is your error.

Editing for redundancy:
The rules care about the roll itself.

How many [1]D6 [= 1 to 6] rolls are you making? 0
You are making a single 2D6 [= 2 to 12] roll.

kirsanth wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Leadership roll, rolling a 2D6, how many D6's are you rolling?

This is your error.

Notice the rule does not say you can re-roll one of your 1D6 rolls.

Explain. Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".

Nemesor Dave wrote:Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".

Other than page 2 of the main rules?

Editing to add:
I somewhat apologize for someone misreading because this has been posted - in this thread.

kirsanth wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".

Other than page 2 of the main rules?

Editing to add:
I somewhat apologize for someone misreading because this has be posted - in this thread.

Yes, other than page 2 which only clarifies that if the rule only gives an unspecified number of dice - a "reroll" then you must reroll all dice and not pick and choose which ones to reroll. It is not saying the other way around, that a rule must specify "1 of 2 dice" or "2 of 3 dice". Its saying when the number of dice to re-roll isn't specified, reroll all.

If this is a matter of "40k" rules convention, surely there are plenty of other examples of rules that work the same way you're saying they should work.

DOes the Chrono specify you can reroll one of the dice in a 2D6+ roll? No.
That means it HASNT specified that it can, so it cant

Again, this is an error in understanding of what "specific" means, same with SA vs EL

nosferatu1001 wrote:DOes the Chrono specify you can reroll one of the dice in a 2D6+ roll? No.
That means it HASNT specified that it can, so it cant

Again, this is an error in understanding of what "specific" means, same with SA vs EL

Edit: bad example.

Chronometron and a leadership 2D6 roll, you can only reroll one dice. Because it specifies you may re-roll ONE.

This is what this means by "specific".

Nemesor Dave wrote:Explain. Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".

The Space Wolf FAQ ruling on Wolf Standard, which has been quoted twice now. It tells us clearly that a 2d6 roll is NOT two rolls a single d6. It's a different thing. This is a clarification, bear in mind, not an eratta, so it applies equally to the Chronometron or anything else which allows re-rolling a d6.