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Mannahnin wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Explain. Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".

The Space Wolf FAQ ruling on Wolf Standard, which has been quoted twice now. It tells us clearly that a 2d6 roll is NOT two rolls a single d6. It's a different thing. This is a clarification, bear in mind, not an eratta, so it applies equally to the Chronometron or anything else which allows re-rolling a d6.

Wolf standard:
"For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1"

Q. Does a Wolf Standard allow Leadership test results
to be re-rolled? (p62)
A. No, as it is impossible to roll a ‘1’ on 2D6 – when
making a 2D6 result you must count both dice as a
single roll, not address them individually.

Yes, when evaluating the result of a 2D6 roll, this clarifies that you can't consider the dice separately as 1 + 1. The roll is a roll of 2 and will never be less than 2.

The cronometron is worded differently. It is allowing you to reroll one D6. It is quite possible to reroll a single D6 of two D6's rolled.

This example is regarding the result of the roll, not the numbers of dice involved. A better example would help this debate.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The cronometron is worded differently. It is allowing you to reroll one D6.

You are wrong.

Editing to repeat:
It allows you to re-roll a d6 roll.
Not a[any] single d6 from a[ny] roll [that may or may not have been a d6 roll].

kirsanth wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:The cronometron is worded differently. It is allowing you to reroll one D6.

You are wrong.

Editing to repeat:
It allows you to re-roll a d6 roll.
Not a[any] single d6 from a[ny] roll [that may or may not have been a d6 roll].

Again from the FAQ emphasis on this part: "when making a 2D6 result"

What must you do?

"you must count both dice as a
single roll, not address them individually. "

We are not considering the 2D6 result. We are considering how many dice we can reroll. 2D6 is by definition two dice. Chronometron lets you re-roll one of them.

Nemesor Dave wrote: Chronometron lets you re-roll one of them.

No. It lets you re-roll a [single] d6 roll. A 2d6 roll is not a [single] d6 roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:We are not considering the 2D6 result.

We are, however, considering a 2d6 roll.

Editing out the part where I said you were considering a 2d6 roll because you are not.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:The cronometron is worded differently. It is allowing you to reroll one D6.

You are wrong.

Editing to repeat:
It allows you to re-roll a d6 roll.
Not a[any] single d6 from a[ny] roll [that may or may not have been a d6 roll].

Again from the FAQ emphasis on this part: "when making a 2D6 result"

What must you do?

"you must count both dice as a single roll, not address them individually. "

We are not considering the 2D6 result.

Yes, we most certainly are. On a Leadership roll or Scatter distance roll, we roll two dice and sum them to get a result between two and twelve. Page 2 clarifies that this is called a "2d6 roll", and that you may not re-roll one of the component dice unless you have a rule explicitly saying otherwise. The Wolf Standard ruling reiterates and reinforces the point. You may not look at those two component die rolls individually and re-roll either of them if it happens to be a 1. Just as you may not use a rule which allows you to re-roll "a d6 roll" to re-roll one of the component dice.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

We are not considering the 2D6 result. We are considering how many dice we can reroll. 2D6 is by definition two dice. Chronometron lets you re-roll one of them.

This is where you go wrong. That's not necessarily true in the 40k ruleset.

In 40k, 2d6 is by definition 2-12. You are not allowed to split 2-12 into 1-6 + 1-6, which is what you're trying to do here, except in a few specifically defined circumstances (determining PotW, for instance).

A d6 roll is by definition different from a 2d6 roll. The Chrono allows you to re-roll a d6 - meaning you made a d6 roll in the first place.

I see both sides of this debate.

Quote are mine for emphasis:
1. Rolling 2D6 is a "2D6 roll". Chronometron lets you re-roll one "D6 roll". If the roll contains more than one dice, it is not a "D6 roll".

2. Rolling 2D6 is two D6 rolls. Chronometron lets you reroll one "D6" roll.

The Spacewolf FAQ would clarify this except it is regarding the result of the roll, not the number of dice. A better example would help clear this up if there is one.

The Warptime Chaos FAQ doesn't contradict #2, but it doesn't confirm it either.

BRB page 2 is simply stating that if a rule doesn't specify the number of dice to re-roll, you must re-roll all. If you interpret this as meaning you must specify 2d6 to reroll 2d6, or specify 3d6 to reroll 3d6, then it leaves wide open the option to reroll fewer than the full number of dice when you're allowed to reroll and doesn't fit the context either.. In this case, if I was allowed to re-roll leadership I could just reroll 1D6 if I chose and there would be no rule against it.

Any other examples of a multi dice roll being counted as a single "roll" and not multiple dice being rolled?

The Spacewolf FAQ is directly applicable. Both Leadership tests and Scatter distance rolls use 2d6 rolls. Both give a result which is a sum of two dice, and a result between two and twelve. Both page 2 and the FAQ answer make clear that you can't pick out one die from a 2d6 roll.

BRB page 2 is simply stating that if a rule doesn't specify the number of dice to re-roll, you must re-roll all.

That's not what it says at all. It says that you can't re-roll one die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, unless you have a rule specifically stating otherwise.

Any other examples of a multi dice roll being counted as a single "roll" and not multiple dice being rolled?

Scatter. You have to re-roll all the dice or none.

Mannahnin wrote:The Spacewolf FAQ is directly applicable. Both Leadership tests and Scatter distance rolls use 2d6 rolls. Both give a result which is a sum of two dice, and a result between two and twelve. Both page 2 and the FAQ answer make clear that you can't pick out one die from a 2d6 roll.

BRB page 2 is simply stating that if a rule doesn't specify the number of dice to re-roll, you must re-roll all.

That's not what it says at all. It says that you can't re-roll one die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, unless you have a rule specifically stating otherwise.

I've seen this rule as quoted to mean what I am saying it means. If it means what you are saying then what stops someone from using Brother Corbulo's Far Seeing Eye from the Blood Angels Codex and just rerolling 1D6 of a leadership roll?

(I would start my own thread, but I am asking in regards specifically to the subject of this thread)

Corbulo has a totally different rule. All-seeing Eye allows you to re-roll any one roll you have just made. It doesn't specify d6 or 2d6 or any number. And it gives examples both of 1d6 rolls and 2d6 rolls.

So he can choose a Leadership test just as easily as a Dangerous Terrain test.

But he still has to re-roll all the dice if he's picking a leadership test. Per the rules on page 2.

BRB page 2, sidebar titled "Re-rolls & Roll-offs wrote:If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise

Quoted here for clarity.

So, if you choose to reroll a roll of 2d6 or 3d6, you cannot reroll fewer than the maximum number, unless the rule tells you explicitly that you can, which I interpret to mean that the rule must include "You may reroll part of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll" or equivalent language.

Mannahnin wrote:The Spacewolf FAQ is directly applicable. Both Leadership tests and Scatter distance rolls use 2d6 rolls. Both give a result which is a sum of two dice, and a result between two and twelve. Both page 2 and the FAQ answer make clear that you can't pick out one die from a 2d6 roll.

BRB page 2 is simply stating that if a rule doesn't specify the number of dice to re-roll, you must re-roll all.

That's not what it says at all. It says that you can't re-roll one die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, unless you have a rule specifically stating otherwise.

So you must re-roll both leadership dice, unless explicitly specified otherwise. In this case that the chronometron specifies one D6 is otherwise. I believe stating that its one D6 satisfies this requirement of it being specified as a number different from the number of dice rolled.

The Space Wolf FAQ says the wolf standard doesn't apply because it's :"When making a 2D result" then "not address them individually." Its not a universal statement. I find this in many RAW arguments, taking a single phrase out of a sentence and applying it alone as a rule. This is only regarding how you make the result of 2D6. Chronometron doesn't care about the result, but only the number of dice.

I agree the Brother Corubulo ability works just fine with this rule.

I agree that it's implied you should only be allowed to re-roll a roll that consists of a single D6, but so far I don't see it in the RAW.

You have permission to re-roll a d6. You don't have permission to re-roll 2d6. Since the rules state you must re-roll both, and you don't have permission to, you can't.

You have permission to re-roll a d6, not part of a Xd6 roll.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

BRB page 2, sidebar titled "Re-rolls & Roll-offs wrote:If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise

Quoted here for clarity.

So, if you choose to reroll a roll of 2d6 or 3d6, you cannot reroll fewer than the maximum number, unless the rule tells you explicitly that you can, which I interpret to mean that the rule must include "You may reroll part of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll" or equivalent language.

Isn't saying "you may re-roll one" the same as "you may reroll one of any number of dice?" Both are specifying a number of dice different than the 2D6. The second example is more specific, however both a specific about the number being different.

No, it's not. The former says you may re-roll one - and we've established that 1d6 is a specific thing in the rules.
The latter says one of many - which is what would be required.

No. You need a statement that "You may use this re-roll to re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll" or the equivalent.

Page 2 defines that there are multiple distinct types of rolls, and that re-rolls for one do not apply to the others.

A 1d6 roll is one type of roll.
A 2d6 roll is another type of roll.
A 3d6 roll is another type of roll.

Chronometron only allows you to re-roll the first. All-Seeing eye allows you to re-roll any of them. Neither roll allows you to pick out and re-roll one die out of the second or third types.

Hmmm. . . I do actually see one other potential argument, which is that the sidebar only says that you must re-roll all the dice if you are specifically re-rolling "a 2d6 or 3d6 roll". Arguably, that leaves room to say that you're NOT re-rolling a 2d6 or 3d6 roll; you're just re-rolling a single d6. That interpretation would narrow the applicability of the sidebar, but it would still be an important rule because it still prevents people who have a rule that allows to "re-roll a failed Leadership check" or something similar from re-rolling only one of the two dice.

Both strictures apply. You can't pick out a single die, nor are a 1d6 roll and a 2d6 roll interchangeable.

Mannahnin wrote:Both strictures apply. You can't pick out a single die, nor are a 1d6 roll and a 2d6 roll interchangeable.

That's my interpretation, too; just wanted to bring up the other potential argument because I hadn't seen it made.

rigeld2 wrote:No, it's not. The former says you may re-roll one - and we've established that 1d6 is a specific thing in the rules.
The latter says one of many - which is what would be required.

"you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them"

If you roll two dice and I tell you to re-roll one of them:

Did I tell you to roll two? No. Did I "specifically tell you otherwise" by saying "roll one"? Yes.

It doesn't say I must tell you exactly the original number of dice you rolled, just that I have to tell you to roll something different than your original roll. Chronometron rule does that by specifying a number of dice to re-roll.

This rule does not solve this debate.

A rule like the Wolf Standard rule that was about the number of dice rolled, instead of being about the result of those dice would do it. It is stating that you cannot consider the result rolled on each dice separately, not that a 2d6 roll isn't considered two dice rolls.

It does solve this debate. You have no permission to roll part of a Xd6 set. You have permission to roll 1d6 which has a specific meaning in the rules.

Your refusal to understand why it applies doesn't mean it doesn't solve the debate.

rigeld2 wrote:It does solve this debate. You have no permission to roll part of a Xd6 set. You have permission to roll 1d6 which has a specific meaning in the rules.

Your refusal to understand why it applies doesn't mean it doesn't solve the debate.

You have not proven that Xd6 is a set. To say "you may reroll one D6" is less specific than to say "you may reroll one D6 out of 2D6" however it is still specific.

1d6 is a specific thing in the rules.
2d6 is a specific thing in the rules.

You are allowed to re-roll 1d6.
It's that specific. Since there is no permission to do anything with 2d6, you cannot re-roll just one die.

Chronometron gives you permission to re-roll one of your "d6 rolls", not 1d6. Check the entry.

Page 2 defines a "d6 roll" as a different thing from a "2d6 roll".

Mannahnin wrote:No. You need a statement that "You may use this re-roll to re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll" or the equivalent.

Page 2 defines that there are multiple distinct types of rolls, and that re-rolls for one do not apply to the others.

A 1d6 roll is one type of roll.
A 2d6 roll is another type of roll.
A 3d6 roll is another type of roll.

Chronometron only allows you to re-roll the first. All-Seeing eye allows you to re-roll any of them. Neither roll allows you to pick out and re-roll one die out of the second or third types.

I don't see anything on the page defining rolls as a type of roll. Nothing says 2D6 is a single roll, or 2D6 is not two D6 rolls. It just isn't on the page as RAW.

For 2D6 and 3D6 re-rolls "you must reroll all of them" unless specified otherwise.

There are two ways a rule can specify otherwise:

1. A rule says "you are not required to reroll all dice"
2. A rule says "You may reroll one D6."

Both cases are specifying otherwise.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:Chronometron gives you permission to re-roll one of your "d6 rolls", not 1d6. Check the entry.

I completely agree.

Mannahnin wrote:
Page 2 defines a "d6 roll" as a different thing from a "2d6 roll".

Which part? Can you quote it?

Xd6 means "roll x number of dice and add them together." The result of any one of those dice affect the over all roll.
In some cases you might roll multiple d6's simultaneously (such as when shooting). In that case you roll X d6. Each d6 affects only itself. Not the overall total. When you have permission to re-roll a d6 (aka 1d6), it must be used on a 1d6 roll.

Also regarding psychic tests (I know someone mentioned them somewhere), they specify double 1's and 6's because certain wargear/abilities can affect how many dice you roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 2:

Almost all of the dice rolls in Warhammer 40,000 uses standard 6-sided dice (usually referred to as 'D6')

This tells us that a d6 is a standard 6-sided die.

You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go, which is written as 2d6, 3d6, and so on. Roll the indicated number of dice and add the scores together...

This tells us that Xd6 is X number of 6 sided dice added together, to get a result of X to 6x.

Happyjew wrote:
Page 2:

Almost all of the dice rolls in Warhammer 40,000 uses standard 6-sided dice (usually referred to as 'D6')

This tells us that a d6 is a standard 6-sided die.

The chronometron specifically mentions a "D6 roll", not a "1D6 roll". This would mean it is referring to an individual dice, not a "roll". This actually means you can re-roll a part of a 2D6 roll, a D6 of it.

This is definitely a line in favor of allowing one of XD6 to be rerolled.

Except a d6 roll and a 1d6 roll are synonymous in the rules.

Deja Vu.

rigeld2 wrote:Except a d6 roll and a 1d6 roll are synonymous in the rules.

Deja Vu.

I know this was stated, but I don't think it was demonstrated.