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2012/02/24 09:38:53
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
broodstar wrote:1. I've been evolved in gang activity, I've dealt drugs to get by.
So you know how society without the rule of law works. And did you stay in that society, or endeavour to get a place in lawful society?
2. You know what it that doesn't deserve an answer.
Well it was a fairly silly point all around, lol I've got me a gun so I don't have to worry about no stinking bandits.
3. OMG, freemarket is not anarchy! The government still exists, there is still an army.
Good, now we've gotten that far, you'll note that some people in that system make more money than others. And now that you've recognised that the 'freemarket' system has army, police, and other measures to enforce the laws that do exist, it should become immediately obvious that some people benefit more from having that system around (ie the ones making more money are benefitting more).
At which point, complaining that the ones benefitting the most from having the system are the ones expected to pay the most to maintain the system becomes very, very silly. At which point we can move on from this thread, and pretend it never happened.
freemarket just mean that whenever you try to do something there isn't some bureaucrat breathing down your neck.
No, it does not. It's actually a gibberish term invented by people who like to pretend capitalism doesn't have government laws underpinning it. Those people play that pretend game in order to lobby to have only the laws they want as part of the system.
Though I've never seen freemarket as just one word before. That's new.
4. And when those social laws are ignored, you call the law.
That's right. So you need a government to enforce your system. At which point you have to stop pretending that an individual is self-made, and in fact bases his income on his interaction with the system.
Dude you're starting to annoy me.
I really don't care. I do care that you're saying very silly things.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
broodstar wrote:it will regulate itself. because everyone is greed and well let's face it capitalism is about screwing each other. I'll sell you that overpriced piece of crap if you sell me that overpriced piece of crap. And how it regulates itself is the consumer, when they feel they're being ripped off they go to another guy. The business either changes it's way or it goes broke, that simple.
You're approaching this from a position of priviledge, that assumes there is another competitor down the road who will sell you the product. So would you support regulation to stop one company being the only electricity supplier in town?
And do you deal with people being duped into signing dodgy contracts? Just expect everyone to read every single 1,000 page contract to make sure they're not accidentally signing themselves into sex slavery everytime they renew their phone contract?
And what about once we get to serious matters, like employment law? Should an employee who is sexually harrassed just be expected to put up with it or quit?
Whenever I think of regulation and bureaucracy, I think of the scene from "Andy Griffith" where Barney Fief is measuring the tire to make sure it is no more than x inches from the curb.
So... fiction.
Now the only way they can get you to buy a hybrid is if they're subsidized, ie, buy a $5000 car and get a $5000 tax credit.
You need to look up the tragedy of the commons, and consider how that relates to externalities, and why society might do well as a group to agree to policies to reduce those externalities.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
d-usa wrote:Evolutionary speaking, if morals place the good of society above your own good then they are not natural.
There's been arguments made that humans would adapt instincts to act in the best interests of the tribe, as it would give that tribe an evolutionary advantage over others. I mean, that's an argument from evolutionary biology, so it's on the more speculative end of science, but it makes some kind of sense.
OK, it's time to play your little game.
So are you saying that mankind can not possible live without big brother looking over their shoulder?
The government has to be involved in everything you do, so a bureaucrat follows you around telling of a federal regulation that says that he must stay with you every day to enure that you are breathing properly, what would your response to him be?
Can the government do anything better for you, than you can do for yourself?
Have you ever lived in a world without laws?
Have you struggled to make ends meet while others have played the system?
Have you ever considered that in this system you are a pawn, not of those of a higher income, but of a lower income?
And have you ever considered a system where you can live your whole life hunting and living off your land with the only government interaction is the sheriff coming up once a month just to check up on you?
Tyranids 3000 points
Dark Angels 500 points
2012/02/24 09:39:41
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
ShumaGorath wrote:An embargo on rare earth metals alone would make it virtually impossible to prosecute any sort of long term war engagement. We're also severely lacking in any sort of electronics manufacturing base and we don't have the trained personnel to have one. It's not something we could really do as a country. The united states has a lot of mineral wealth, but we're really not particularly close to being capable of sustaining ourselves by ourselves. We're not geared that way as an economy anymore and it would take decades of concerted effort to get back to being capable of such.
And a quick Google search will actually net you several American electronics factories. The reason we trade and have lost a lot of manufacturing jobs is because places like China have a comparative advantage towards that industry. What we lack to a greater extent is consumer electronics manufacturing, but we have lots of medical and other vital electronics firms.
Now don't get me wrong, it would still be problematic, but that's not the point. If America went into total war and lost all of it's allies somehow, it can sustain itself
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
2012/02/24 09:45:06
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
broodstar wrote:3. OMG, freemarket is not anarchy! The government still exists, there is still an army. freemarket just mean that whenever you try to do something there isn't some bureaucrat breathing down your neck.
I can only conclude that you must eat everything fresh, be it meat, fruit or veg, nothing prepackaged and preprocessed, because in a free market you would have to do just that if you wanted any sort of quality.
Want to know why?
Because the 'big government' you hate so much regulates what goes in that prepackaged and preprocessed food, 50ish + years ago you could never truly know if that tinned tuna you were eating really was tuna and not cat food, you had to take it in good faith that the manufacturer was actually selling you tuna, you may find this surprising, but the introducing of labelling laws in many countries by 'big governments' did 1 thing, that thing was increase the quality of all products (not just food) by alot.
Well have you seen McDonald's milkshakes, I know that's not a milkshake, I've seen a real milkshake and I've tasted a real milkshake but that chemical is delicious,
Tyranids 3000 points
Dark Angels 500 points
2012/02/24 10:11:44
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
broodstar wrote:
Have you struggled to make ends meet while others have played the system?
Then play the system.
You can't argue that people should adapt to the market, if you won't adapt to the market.
Well, you can, it just doesn't ring quite as true.
broodstar wrote:
Have you ever considered that in this system you are a pawn, not of those of a higher income, but of a lower income?
As someone who tells people of higher income how to manipulate people of lower income, I assure you that, if you're middle class, you should be looking up, not down.
broodstar wrote:
And have you ever considered a system where you can live your whole life hunting and living off your land with the only government interaction is the sheriff coming up once a month just to check up on you?
We had that back in the day (sort of), and apparently enough people preferred the alternative in order to advance us to the present.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/02/24 10:31:14
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
Maybe I just don't belong society at this time. They say if a thousand people are crazy maybe it's you. But, it's something I feel in my heart to be true. Maybe I'm just too wild for modern society. Maybe go up to Alaska, hunt and fish be with a sense of honor. Honor I know so many people that don't even know what that word truly means anymore.
Tyranids 3000 points
Dark Angels 500 points
2012/02/24 11:01:34
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
broodstar wrote:Maybe I just don't belong society at this time. They say if a thousand people are crazy maybe it's you. But, it's something I feel in my heart to be true. Maybe I'm just too wild for modern society. Maybe go up to Alaska, hunt and fish be with a sense of honor. Honor I know so many people that don't even know what that word truly means anymore.
Or you could grow up, pay your taxes, and contribute to to society. If you're in a position to pay tax, it means you have a job and can support yourself (and your family?).
Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION
2012/02/24 11:20:50
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
broodstar wrote:Maybe I just don't belong society at this time. They say if a thousand people are crazy maybe it's you. But, it's something I feel in my heart to be true. Maybe I'm just too wild for modern society. Maybe go up to Alaska, hunt and fish be with a sense of honor. Honor I know so many people that don't even know what that word truly means anymore.
Or you could grow up, pay your taxes, and contribute to to society. If you're in a position to pay tax, it means you have a job and can support yourself (and your family?).
Yeah that will happen, grow up to a life of subjugation ok. We were meant to live for so much more. Hey, let's all go to the same old drudge even while the Obama's go to Italy, because hell it's for the good of society.
Tyranids 3000 points
Dark Angels 500 points
2012/02/24 11:24:01
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
broodstar wrote:Maybe I just don't belong society at this time. They say if a thousand people are crazy maybe it's you. But, it's something I feel in my heart to be true. Maybe I'm just too wild for modern society. Maybe go up to Alaska, hunt and fish be with a sense of honor. Honor I know so many people that don't even know what that word truly means anymore.
Or you could grow up, pay your taxes, and contribute to to society. If you're in a position to pay tax, it means you have a job and can support yourself (and your family?).
Yeah that will happen, grow up to a life of subjugation ok. We were meant to live for so much more. Hey, let's all go to the same old drudge even while the Obama's go to Italy, because hell it's for the good of society.
Your military is responsible for you having the freedom to whine about your government. Your roads are maintained to allow you to go to work. If your house catches fire it will be extinguished by people on the public payroll. If your house gets burgled the police will catch the perpetrator (okay that's a bit far-fetched).
By all means feel free to move to a country that has no state at all, I hear Somalia's nice. Oh no wait, it's a gak hole.
Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION
2012/02/24 11:32:08
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
broodstar wrote:The military I give all my heart for, I'll give you that but the roads maintained bwahahaha.
If the roads had not been maintained at all civilisation as you know it would not be possible. Badly maintained ! = no maintainace at all. Especially when you consider the sheer size of the USA and how many roads it has, it's not like dense little England.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/24 11:34:04
Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION
2012/02/24 11:37:23
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
Well the problem is that we are already being taxed for those repairs. The Interstate Tax which is 52 cent for every gallon of gas. The Interstate Tax was instituted when Eisenhower built the Interstate to pay for it and it's maintenance, the problem is that that money is going into general funds and well, being spent on welfare.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And that is my primary problem with paying my taxes, I find it vary wrong to pay my taxes when it isn't being used properly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/24 12:17:59
Tyranids 3000 points
Dark Angels 500 points
2012/02/24 12:57:16
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
http://www.ourdime.us/102/budgetinfo/how-much-do-we-spend-on-welfare/ USA spends 5.5% of its budget on helping the poor. That, frankly, is pitiful.
The USA's tax burden as a whole is simply too low. There's no way Mitt Romney should be paying so little of his income in tax.
You need more taxation so you can repair those roads.
Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION
2012/02/24 13:09:14
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
Joey wrote:http://www.ourdime.us/102/budgetinfo/how-much-do-we-spend-on-welfare/
USA spends 5.5% of its budget on helping the poor. That, frankly, is pitiful.
The USA's tax burden as a whole is simply too low. There's no way Mitt Romney should be paying so little of his income in tax.
You need more taxation so you can repair those roads.
Frankly, you're about it being pitiful but absolutely horribly awfully wrong about all the reasons. 5.5% is too high, not even 5.5% too high 10 or 15% too high! There is no way that those getting the MOST out of government to being with (not even assistance just things like schools and public transport) should get EVEN MORE and pay EVEN LESS. This is THEFT of the most basic kind.
Imagine this. You're a kid and you get GOOD GRADES with your own hard work and your EFFORT is REWARDED when your grandma sends you a check for $100 because you're a GOOD KID who WORKS HARD and EARNS THINGS. Then your insane Uncle Sam (who frankly your parents only let stay at the house, because he's the only one in the family who owns enough to guns to keep your even more bat-gak insane neighbors from coming in trashing your house) KICKS YOU IN THE NUTS and takes FIFTEEN of your YOUR HARD EARNED DOLLARS gives them to your fething lazy older cousin who does nothing but sit around SMOKE POT and JERK IT all day long and was already EXPELLED from school for having sex with another dude in class. Then he tells your cousin "needs" it because he spends whatever money he gets (when he is only being 99% lazy) on drugs and lube.
2012/02/24 13:14:37
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
Joey wrote:http://www.ourdime.us/102/budgetinfo/how-much-do-we-spend-on-welfare/
USA spends 5.5% of its budget on helping the poor. That, frankly, is pitiful.
The USA's tax burden as a whole is simply too low. There's no way Mitt Romney should be paying so little of his income in tax.
You need more taxation so you can repair those roads.
Foreigners should not be telling me the amount of taxes my countrymen should be paying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/24 13:25:30
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/02/24 13:22:16
Subject: Re:A new way to look at taxation and spending.
Chongara wrote:One should always PAY for what one GETS
Yeah, society doesn't work that way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:Foreigners should not be telling me the amount of taxes my countrymen should be paying.
Right, we're not Greece, we're at least halfway competent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/24 13:22:55
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/02/24 13:26:30
Subject: Re:A new way to look at taxation and spending.
Chongara wrote:One should always PAY for what one GETS
Yeah, society doesn't work that way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:Foreigners should not be telling me the amount of taxes my countrymen should be paying.
Right, we're not Greece, we're at least halfway competent.
I wouldn't go THAT far. How about 25% competent?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/02/24 13:27:47
Subject: Re:A new way to look at taxation and spending.
Frazzled wrote:I wouldn't go THAT far. How about 25% competent?
No no no, the EU is about 25% competent, and we're doing better than them.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/02/24 13:30:52
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/02/24 13:33:12
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
Joey wrote:http://www.ourdime.us/102/budgetinfo/how-much-do-we-spend-on-welfare/
USA spends 5.5% of its budget on helping the poor. That, frankly, is pitiful.
The USA's tax burden as a whole is simply too low. There's no way Mitt Romney should be paying so little of his income in tax.
You need more taxation so you can repair those roads.
Frankly, you're about it being pitiful but absolutely horribly awfully wrong about all the reasons. 5.5% is too high, not even 5.5% too high 10 or 15% too high! There is no way that those getting the MOST out of government to being with (not even assistance just things like schools and public transport) should get EVEN MORE and pay EVEN LESS. This is THEFT of the most basic kind.
Imagine this. You're a kid and you get GOOD GRADES with your own hard work and your EFFORT is REWARDED when your grandma sends you a check for $100 because you're a GOOD KID who WORKS HARD and EARNS THINGS. Then your insane Uncle Sam (who frankly your parents only let stay at the house, because he's the only one in the family who owns enough to guns to keep your even more bat-gak insane neighbors from coming in trashing your house) KICKS YOU IN THE NUTS and takes FIFTEEN of your YOUR HARD EARNED DOLLARS gives them to your fething lazy older cousin who does nothing but sit around SMOKE POT and JERK IT all day long and was already EXPELLED from school for having sex with another dude in class. Then he tells your cousin "needs" it because he spends whatever money he gets (when he is only being 99% lazy) on drugs and lube.
You are not The Sun. Putting random words in capital letters does not make a point.
Also in your example the money is not "hard earned" it's been given to you. And I assume gifts are not taxed in the USA so it's moot anyway.
You define being forced to help others as theft. I would define a refusal to help others as barbaric. Anyway most people are pretty happy to pay their taxes, as I said above, I assume you use public roads, you are reliant on the help of the police, the fire service, the military, bridges, the government itself (visiting foreign dignitaries, protecting the higher up politicians).
But no. You're bothered that 5% of what you are taxed is spent on helping the less well off. The best figures I could find say the average American worker pays $4030.36 in tax, 5% of that is 201, or $3.80 a week. $3.80 a week to ensure that your fellow citizens don't starve to death. I honestly don't see how any human being with a conscience could object to that.
Frazzled wrote:
Joey wrote:http://www.ourdime.us/102/budgetinfo/how-much-do-we-spend-on-welfare/
USA spends 5.5% of its budget on helping the poor. That, frankly, is pitiful.
The USA's tax burden as a whole is simply too low. There's no way Mitt Romney should be paying so little of his income in tax.
You need more taxation so you can repair those roads.
Foreigners should not be telling me the amount of taxes my countrymen should be paying.
I missed the bit in the OP that said "Non-US citizens' opinions are not welcome". You are a nation like any others, why shouldn't you compare yourself to other nations?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:
Frazzled wrote:I wouldn't go THAT far. How about 25% competent?
No no no, the EU is about 25% competent, and we're doing better than them.
It amuses me to see Americans knock the EU when our economy is already larger than America's and will outpace it more and more during the 21st century.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/24 13:35:24
Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION
2012/02/24 13:37:43
Subject: Re:A new way to look at taxation and spending.
We can do without the mahoosive quote pyramids please.
ta.
Foreigners should not be telling me the amount of taxes my countrymen should be paying.
And we can do without comments like this too.
thanks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/24 13:37:57
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2012/02/24 13:50:38
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
I missed the bit in the OP that said "Non-US citizens' opinions are not welcome". You are a nation like any others, why shouldn't you compare yourself to other nations?
***Other the part where you’re either ignorant or intentionally lying about basic information? While I think Sebster is just this side of Marx (groucho that is) he argues with somewhat reliable figures. Don't you have a mountain lion's neck to break with your bare hands somewhere?
It amuses me to see Americans knock the EU when our economy is already larger than America's and will outpace it more and more during the 21st century. ****Congrats. That’s like grandpa smacking the baby because the baby hasn’t built a house yet. How old is Europe?
Of course is this before or after Greece implodes taking down Italy, Portugal, and the Euro with it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/24 13:51:20
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/02/24 13:51:24
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
Joey wrote:It amuses me to see Americans knock the EU when our economy is already larger than America's and will outpace it more and more during the 21st century.
At the rate the EU is going, they'll be lucky if half their member states don't default.
Oh and yes, a group of nations with a population of 500 million has a slightly bigger economy than one which has 300 million in it. The shocker is that you're just barely competing with the US in terms of total GDP (less than a five percent difference, and the US is actually ahead of Europe in terms of GDP per capita, with the EU having 25% less nominal GDP per capita) despite having twice the population. Good job EU.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/02/24 13:55:26
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/02/24 13:56:54
Subject: A new way to look at taxation and spending.
Are we including the UK in the EU here? Because, thats just wrong. Haggis walks alone.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/02/24 14:02:04
Subject: Re:A new way to look at taxation and spending.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
it that doesn't deserve an answer.
