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winterdyne wrote:Plus it just makes you sound like an angry, and somewhat unimaginative teenager. Sorry, but it's true. You lose credibility for the gaffe, no matter how much you believe it.

I disagree. If someone was flinging expletives across their post or not using punctuation, I would think they're an unimaginative teenager. When someone uses "failcast", I immediately think of a disgruntled customer. If the rest of their post is well put-together, then I don't feel that that single word discredits everything else they have to say.


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filbert wrote:

This may be GW trying to audit where all the dodgy models are coming from (batch numbers, shipments, stores etc), it might be them trying to audit which models themselves seem to be more prone to error,

Don't suppose GW QC could do that, huh?

Ravenous D wrote:Actually I over heard a black shirt talking about this the other day, apparently they have the right to refuse minor airbubble returns and must attempt to up sell liquid green stuff (including a demo!) to anyone that has a problem....

Thus far hasnt happened to me, but when/if it does, its going to be world war 3.

Sounds reasonable. Modelling is part of the hobby- filling small gaps/bubbles, cleaning moldlines or rebending pieces is acceptable. Same as pinning, rebending, cleaning moldlines and greenstuffing in gaps in metal models has been acceptable for years.

Bubbles across detail or having bits missing or misaligned is where the issue is.

Yeah, I don't even bother going to the local GW store unless I'm searching for something that I know the other three FLGS in the area don't carry. The guy that works at the newly-opened Cincinnati store (only employee btw), doesn't know ANYTHING about the games at all. He probably would have been just like the employee in OP's post, if not worse. Which is why I would just call the customer service number instead of trying to deal with the employee(s).

Well Im kind of confused why I have to buy Liquid Green Stuff.

for the last 20 years of playing GW based games....

I have NEVER had to use Modelling Clay of any sort to FIX a GW Model.

I have owned $1000's of dollars of GW models.

FINECAST comes out.

I OWN 13 FINECAST models.

I have had to fix 6 of the 13 I own.

Thats a HUGE deal to me. Im glad GW accepts Airbubbles as part of the process. I would argue I have never had to deal with it, if GW accepts it, then they can have it back.

I would argue I have never had to deal with it

And they might accept such a return on a goodwill basis. But (in the UK at least) minor cleaning and repair has always been part and parcel of toy soldiers based modelling (and in fact other sorts of modelling too, eg train sets). Your personal experience with metal doesn't change what the law says (though Canadian consumer law may be on your side, it may not).

Detail being obliterated by miscasting would probably be a legal returns issue, though again given that 'fit for purpose' has different meanings depending on whether it's being sold primarily for collecting/painting, modelling, or gaming, standards falling as you go through that small list.

I completely agree (from a personal pov) that airbubbles and so forth should be returnable (though I don't think UK law will agree). But I think one might get further approaching the matter more as a 'reasonable request' than assuming GW is bound to comply and going all guns blazing as some folk in this thread have suggested they would do.


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I realise that the 'good customer service' argument is different from the legal one, and I think GW, controlling the manufacturing process, is uniquely placed to give excellent customer service on returns (and my own limited experience is that their customer service has always been superb over such matters). Also it seems to me to make sense to foster goodwill with a generous returns policy. But stroppy customers demanding something be returned (as opposed to nice polite ones asking) are more likely to see refusal given that the law is almost certainly agin them.

I had the occasion to call GW Customer Service this last week. I had a bunged up Fire Prism (new kit) that had mismolded top turret part.

When I spoke to the CSR guy, I happened to say words to the effect of

"I have a small problem I need to talk to you folks about".

Before I went into the details, he said "Which Finecast model are you calling about".

When I informed him that I had a NON-Finecast molding issue on an Eldar Tank kit, he just about fell all over himself to help me out, and is evidently sending me a replacement sprue.

When he asked if there was anything else he could do for me.. I kinda joking mentioned that I have another Eldar tank that is missing the clear canopies for the crew area, so, (and I am quoting him here)...

"Well, since you don't have a Finecast issue, I have NO problem sending you some extra bits. Need anything else?"

So, I am getting a pack of SM bike bases now, as well.

Interesting experience..

-P

You really have to feel bad for the customer service guys, because their workload must have really went the roof over the last ten months.

I think those who are suggesting defective models are acceptable need to join the real world. No other industry gets away with providing defective goods. A shirt missing a button is grounds for an exchange or a discount at the counter; a fridge that has a dent on the side of it gets a big mark down in price.
There are entire shops devoted to selling seconds where something has gone wrong in the manufacture or later handling of a product yet is still deemed worth selling albeit at a lower price.

How many here would be happy paying top price for clothing which have hems and pockets that needed resewing? Would you sit down at home with a needle and thread or sewing machine and fix the mistakes knowing that someone else was paying the same amount for the product and not having to make these "simple" repairs?
Perhaps Levi's could scrap their QC and sell small packs of needles and thread instead. Got a small tear in the fabric of that new jacket, just ask at the counter and they'll sell you a pack which contains a small patch to cover the damage!
What a joke.
Finecast is being sold as a premium product and has a price that reflects that; it is not a basic gaming aid like dice. I wont include the basic plastic models (for those armies that are lucky to have them) as the plastic in comparison is excellent and does not have these issues despite being the cheaper (and supposedly inferior) product.

Bent resin is one thing, bubbles which leave gaping holes in body parts, equipment and the like are another.

wooo yea anger *shakes fist weakly*

call customer service and be polite but firm

Milisim wrote:Well Im kind of confused why I have to buy Liquid Green Stuff.

for the last 20 years of playing GW based games....

I have NEVER had to use Modelling Clay of any sort to FIX a GW Model.

I have owned $1000's of dollars of GW models.

FINECAST comes out.

I OWN 13 FINECAST models.

I have had to fix 6 of the 13 I own.

Thats a HUGE deal to me. Im glad GW accepts Airbubbles as part of the process. I would argue I have never had to deal with it, if GW accepts it, then they can have it back.

cadbren wrote:I think those who are suggesting defective models are acceptable need to join the real world. No other industry gets away with providing defective goods. A shirt missing a button is grounds for an exchange or a discount at the counter; a fridge that has a dent on the side of it gets a big mark down in price.
There are entire shops devoted to selling seconds where something has gone wrong in the manufacture or later handling of a product yet is still deemed worth selling albeit at a lower price.

How many here would be happy paying top price for clothing which have hems and pockets that needed resewing? Would you sit down at home with a needle and thread or sewing machine and fix the mistakes knowing that someone else was paying the same amount for the product and not having to make these "simple" repairs?
Perhaps Levi's could scrap their QC and sell small packs of needles and thread instead. Got a small tear in the fabric of that new jacket, just ask at the counter and they'll sell you a pack which contains a small patch to cover the damage!
What a joke.
Finecast is being sold as a premium product and has a price that reflects that; it is not a basic gaming aid like dice. I wont include the basic plastic models (for those armies that are lucky to have them) as the plastic in comparison is excellent and does not have these issues despite being the cheaper (and supposedly inferior) product.

Bent resin is one thing, bubbles which leave gaping holes in body parts, equipment and the like are another.

To the first person quoted, you've been very lucky indeed. As stated, it's accepted amongst modellers that you will get the occasional hole or gap to fill. An actual loss of detail has, in the past, been the line and if detail is lost it is acceptable to ask to have the model replaced. For GW products, when I bought them in metal, I literally can only think of ten models I didn't have a problem with. The parts wouldn't fit, the casting was terrible in small parts, and I had to pin every model except the mentioned ten (flayed ones, if interested.) And at one point my metal count was decently high.

To the second, I can't see how any of those industries relate to the Hobby industry in any way, shape, or form. Their policies and the policies in this industry will not match, nor should they. I agree, however, that I should get a premium quality product as advertized.

Now, the laws for replacements have been discussed. Lets discuss advertizing laws. In the US, if you advertize that X does Y, you can get sued when it does not.

porkuslime wrote:*snip*

...the feth, man? So they'll fall over themselves to help you out if you have a problem with anything but Finecast, but if you do in fact have a problem with a known faulty line of products then they get an attitude?

You know, if you're tired of Finecast complaints, then fething fix the product line so there's nothing to complain about. If you keep sending out gakky models and telling people to buy liquid green stuff to resculpt details (not fit for the purpose by the way, liquid green stuff is useless for anything but really, really tiny holes), then be prepared to deal with it.

I know. Guess they are feeling a bit overwhelmed and it was nice to be able to deal with something NOT Finecast related..

I guess I feel bad for them in a way, but it's hard because this is entirely GW's fault, and as far as we know nothing at all is being done about it. In fact everything we keep hearing seems to suggest the opposite, that GW is perfectly happy to keep Finecast the way it is and try to make us lower our standards instead of raising theirs.

Lets discuss advertizing laws. In the US, if you advertize that X does Y, you can get sued when it does not.

Certainly. But when something is a subjective claim (eg 'finest models in the world' or whatever) then there's not really any basis for action as 'finest' is subjective.

If GW said something like 'Finecast has fewer defects than any comparable resin models' then there might be a case because that would be testable. Even then in the UK it's usually the case that the advert in question gets pulled and a fine is imposed on the company rather as such actions are usually brought by the ASA or similar.

I really think people would get further by going along the lines of 'I have bought GW products in plastic and metal in the past and have been very happy but this Finecast item seems to me to fall well below the high standards I've encountered from GW in the past. Can I have a replacement/refund please.' rather than yelling about how Finecast is crap and metal was a wonder-material. I'm sure most folk are polite about things in real life and most of the rage on this thread is just venting frustration. If I encounter a Finecast model that seems to me to be flawed (and let me restate that I've only bought nine so far and they've all been perfect), I'll ask for a replacement. And to be honest I'm pretty sure I'll get one instore. Again, I think there's a distinct difference between the Dakka US experience and the Dakka UK one as regards both flaws and customer service.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:
And they might accept such a return on a goodwill basis. But (in the UK at least) minor cleaning and repair has always been part and parcel of toy soldiers based modelling (and in fact other sorts of modelling too, eg train sets). Your personal experience with metal doesn't change what the law says (though Canadian consumer law may be on your side, it may not).

It is interesting that you bring up the topic of model trains. This is an area that I have a some experience, as I have owned sets by Tyco, Lionel, Kato, Marklin, and Micro Trains, to name just a few. The train sets that I have purchased have not required cleaning or repair. It is necessary to clean the track periodically. However, when you purchase the product it most certainly does not need any repair.

The topic of fraud in relation to finecast has been brought up in other threads. GW is walking a very fine line. If they knowingly sell a defective product, then it is my understanding they are guilty of fraud. Questions about damages arise. If they do not accept returns then there are most certainly damages.

Yes but 'defective' is depends on the context in which it is being sold (certainly one can argue that the product is being sold for modelling, but that then raises the issue of how much 'reasonable cleaning up' is needed and whether minor repair of holes is equivalent to removal of excess material). Low quality is not necessarily the same as defective, neither does high variance in quality mean the lower quality ones are defective.

I'd be chary of crying fraud. While refusing reasonable (but not obligatory) returns seems to me to be an unwise policy for GW if it is being done on a widespread basis, I don't see that they're misleading purchasers in a legal sense.

Again, i do think that GW in the UK are uniquely placed to give outstanding customer service with regard to returns, but it's my experience that the do just that. It really seems abroad, where the retail chain is far less dominant, that the issues lie with regard to that.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Yes but 'defective' is depends on the context in which it is being sold (certainly one can argue that the product is being sold for modelling, but that then raises the issue of how much 'reasonable cleaning up' is needed and whether minor repair of holes is equivalent to removal of excess material). Low quality is not necessarily the same as defective, neither does high variance in quality mean the lower quality ones are defective.

I'd be chary of crying fraud. While refusing reasonable (but not obligatory) returns seems to me to be an unwise policy for GW if it is being done on a widespread basis, I don't see that they're misleading purchasers in a legal sense.

Again, i do think that GW in the UK are uniquely placed to give outstanding customer service with regard to returns, but it's my experience that the do just that. It really seems abroad, where the retail chain is far less dominant, that the issues lie with regard to that.

I do not think that such sophistry will wash with consumers. It reminds me of President Clinton's statement about relations with Monica Lewinsky. It is obvious that a large percentage of Finecast products are defective. They require more repair than other miniatures and also require a much higher degree of skill to fix. In my opinion, insofar as miniatures can be defective, Finecast is defective.

Sidstyler wrote:

porkuslime wrote:*snip*

...the feth, man? So they'll fall over themselves to help you out if you have a problem with anything but Finecast, but if you do in fact have a problem with a known faulty line of products then they get an attitude?

You know, if you're tired of Finecast complaints, then fething fix the product line so there's nothing to complain about. If you keep sending out gakky models and telling people to buy liquid green stuff to resculpt details (not fit for the purpose by the way, liquid green stuff is useless for anything but really, really tiny holes), then be prepared to deal with it.

Exactly

This thread seems to be pointing out that GW are starting to take a harder stance on finecast returns, which means we are killing their numbers, which means its working. So to you my fellow gamers please continue to return your finecast and refuse to be bullied if you want to GW to fix it.

cadbren wrote:I think those who are suggesting defective models are acceptable need to join the real world. No other industry gets away with providing defective goods. A shirt missing a button is grounds for an exchange or a discount at the counter; a fridge that has a dent on the side of it gets a big mark down in price.
There are entire shops devoted to selling seconds where something has gone wrong in the manufacture or later handling of a product yet is still deemed worth selling albeit at a lower price.

How many here would be happy paying top price for clothing which have hems and pockets that needed resewing? Would you sit down at home with a needle and thread or sewing machine and fix the mistakes knowing that someone else was paying the same amount for the product and not having to make these "simple" repairs?
Perhaps Levi's could scrap their QC and sell small packs of needles and thread instead. Got a small tear in the fabric of that new jacket, just ask at the counter and they'll sell you a pack which contains a small patch to cover the damage!
What a joke.
Finecast is being sold as a premium product and has a price that reflects that; it is not a basic gaming aid like dice. I wont include the basic plastic models (for those armies that are lucky to have them) as the plastic in comparison is excellent and does not have these issues despite being the cheaper (and supposedly inferior) product.

Bent resin is one thing, bubbles which leave gaping holes in body parts, equipment and the like are another.

When I worked for the Great Enemy one of the things the higher ups always said was "if someone asks you why we dont have sales ask them why porsche doesnt have sales. We sell a premium product at a premium price and have the best models in the world."

I was about to suggest GW do a 50% off bin for their miscasts but the thing would be overflowing.

The whole idea of having to purchase liquid greenstuff to repair miniatures I buy new is silly to me. I would feel the same way even if they gave free liquid greenstuff away with every finecast purchase. I don't have the skill or inclination to sculpt detail onto a figure. I hate painting my figures, but I do it because most of the people I play with paint theirs, and it makes them look better. I sure as hell do not plan on learning to sculpt with putty.

So if GW's stance is shifting (and I'm not sure it is yet) to the idea that certain flaws such as bubbling and minor loss of detail are acceptable, because we are expected to repair these flaws ourselves, then they will lose people like me as customers. The whole finecast fiasco has already pushed me into looking into other games. Instead of building a third 40k army right now, I'm building a Khador army, mainly because dealing with finecast models for my necrons was a huge bust.

If you're using liquid green stuff to sculpt detail, you're going to notice it's not very good for that.

All it is for is filling in issues like small gaps or air bubbles.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:

Lets discuss advertizing laws. In the US, if you advertize that X does Y, you can get sued when it does not.

Certainly. But when something is a subjective claim (eg 'finest models in the world' or whatever) then there's not really any basis for action as 'finest' is subjective.

I would debate that, at least in context with GW's Finecast.

"Finest" clearly implies a product superior to the average. Finecast, on the other hand, is clearly INferior to the average resin cast miniature. Forgeworld and Avatars of War make resin miniatures without the extreme amount of defects that Finecast seems to be plagued with. I'm not familiar offhand with other resin mini producers, but I've never even heard of another line that comes CLOSE to the failure rate of Finecast.

So, clearly, Finecast can make no claim to 'Finest.'

Ravenous D wrote:
This thread seems to be pointing out that GW are starting to take a harder stance on finecast returns, which means we are killing their numbers, which means its working. So to you my fellow gamers please continue to return your finecast and refuse to be bullied if you want to GW to fix it.

(Emphasis mine).

I most sincerely hope so.

winterdyne wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:
This thread seems to be pointing out that GW are starting to take a harder stance on finecast returns, which means we are killing their numbers, which means its working. So to you my fellow gamers please continue to return your finecast and refuse to be bullied if you want to GW to fix it.

(Emphasis mine).

I most sincerely hope so.

Or there has been an uptick in fraud and abuse of GW's very very forgiving return policy and people who were getting free models on their word alone are now being challenged.

I have yet to experience any of the hyperbole on the internet in real life or met anyone who has. I have bought a dozen at least finecast, all but 1 flawless, and GW exchanged it no questions asked.

I am curious how many people who have bought GW actually bought it from GW. If you didn't buy it FROM GW, your consumer protection many mean nothing, you are only entitled to return it to your distributor you bought it from. If I buy a broken blender from walmart, I don't get to return it to the manufacturer... I return it to Walmart. I suspect people are buying these from online discounters and then walk into GW storefronts with no receipt and want a refund for full price which is not something they are entitled to. Technically you should be returning it to your internet retailer.

filbert wrote:
This may be GW trying to audit where all the dodgy models are coming from (batch numbers, shipments, stores etc), it might be them trying to audit which models themselves seem to be more prone to error, it might just be them tightening up the returns policy or it might be a response to a growing number of people taking advantage and getting 'free' models. Who knows.

I think this is the real reason.

Clearly the Finecast QC isn't up to the level of GW's plastics or metals. GW should, and probably is, trying to figure out if there's a problem with one production unit.

OTOH, I think that with Finecast being well known for being "defective," they're taking a beating in compensatory replacements. I mean, should a person get a free model if it's a relatively simple fix? How many truley minor defects resulted in free stuff?

While it's a mess of their own doing, GW is in a pickle. They dont' want to turn all finecast models into "buy one, get one free," but by all accounts the Quality is truley all over the map. And this isn't FW stuff, where they can say it's optional stuff for advanced modelers. These are codex units, some of them (plague marines) are basic troops for an army!

Not sure if this was mentioned yet, but if GW was smart they'd do what most retailers do and have a returns tracking system. They track each customer's return history individually and flag excessive return transactions for investigation or potentially having them return before replacing.

Fraud? Perhaps, but I'd imagine it's pretty rare. GW keeps track of their customers (at least those who have an account on their website). Every time I've had to deal with an issue, there's been a traceable record. Even when the item was not purchased off of their site. I'm sure they can spot trends, but then again... Finecast is seriously just that bad. :(

Pardon me if this has been brought up, I have only been able to skim this thread. Although I have yet to purchase a finecast model, what intrigues me is the potential for a class action suit here. My logic is that games workshop is marketing a product that is labeled to be of the highest quality, which according to lots of the threads I have read is not entirely the case. Now with their current return policy a class action suit wouldn't get far as they are remedying the issue, however If they do switch over to requiring the advanced sculpting skills necessissary to fix some of the miscastings I see potential. They can not use the "fit for purpose" argument that hey are to function as a tabletop model, because they themselves have stated that they are a model company, not a gaming company. Another issue that I am unfamiliar with is how to determine damages, because in most cases the damage done has been time spent fixing or replacing models.

nkelsch wrote:
Or there has been an uprick in fruad and abuse of GW's very very forgiving return policy and people who were getting free models on their word alone are now being challenged.

I have yet to experience any of the hyperbole on the internet in real life or met anyone who has. I have bought a dozen at least finecast, all but 1 flawless, and GW exchanged it no questions asked.

I am curious how many people who have bought GW actually bought it from GW. If you didn't buy it FROM GW, your consumer protection many mean nothing, you are only entitled to return it to your distributor you bought it from. If I buy a broken blender from walmart, I don't get to return it to the manufacturer... I return it to Walmart. I suspect people are buying these from online discounters and then walk into GW storefronts with no recipet and want a refund for full price which is not something they are entitled to. Technically you should be returning it to your internet retailer.

Possibly. If folks see an exploit, they'll go for it, but this channel has been open for a very long time. The difference now is that there are now many verifiable faults requiring exchange / replacement / refund (as opposed to few and far between) which makes the 'no receipt' policy of exchanges at GW stores a real vulnerability.

I personally only buy from GW, and I keep my receipts (as I write a lot of models off my profit line for tax purposes). In terms of verifying faults, I take high-resolution photos as best as I am able.

I have no problem with tightening up the returns policy to require a receipt from the point of purchase, ensuring that any refund where applicable is of the right amount. That's just fair business, which is all anybody ever asks.

But GW aren't asking for receipts. They're asking you to fix problems that really shouldn't be there.








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pretre wrote:Not sure if this was mentioned yet, but if GW was smart they'd do what most retailers do and have a returns tracking system. They track each customer's return history individually and flag excessive return transactions for investigation or potentially having them return before replacing.

You'd think it'd raise some flags when I ring them up and say I'd like my sixth replacement 25th anniversary marine and by the way I got through 9 Sterns before giving up, am I actually going to get a good one?

Nah, they just say 'the quality's bang on' and send out another piece of crap.

doctorludo wrote:Hi all,

I've followed the Finecast situation from a distance. I think the well-produced models look nice. The main message seems to have been that the fail rate is high, but that GW replace with a minimum of fuss.

A different experience from my brother today, which I thought I'd ask about. Apologies if this is nothing new - I haven't read every post in the 74 page thread.

He received a LOTR monster as a gift, and picked up two problems - the pieces were warped and wouldn't fit, and some of the detail had been lost. He was passing the store and went in to ask about returning it (didn't have the model to hand).

The redshirt told him that they would only replace the model if he had taken all reasonable steps to assemble it, including putting the model in hot water and bending it into shape. He was quite firm about this, even when my brother argued that the model was expensive enough to warrant a perfect fit first time, and it wasn't his job to be making up for their poor product.

In addition, the redshirt suggested he use green stuff to re-sculpt some of the lost detail. My brother was unimpressed, pointing out that if he wanted to build from scratch, he'd do the whole model. Luckily, he is pre-warned as to what he needs to say when he returns it.

Leaving aside the impossibility of proving this, has anyone come across a similar policy?

Ludo

When I had to request replacements via phone with GW they promptly offered to send replacements and told me I could use the original ones to practice my green stuff skills on. So it seems that they know the techniques for correcting some issues but (in my experience, 2-3 times) they have simply replaced my models.

Polonius wrote:

filbert wrote:
This may be GW trying to audit where all the dodgy models are coming from (batch numbers, shipments, stores etc), it might be them trying to audit which models themselves seem to be more prone to error, it might just be them tightening up the returns policy or it might be a response to a growing number of people taking advantage and getting 'free' models. Who knows.

I think this is the real reason.

Clearly the Finecast QC isn't up to the level of GW's plastics or metals. GW should, and probably is, trying to figure out if there's a problem with one production unit.

OTOH, I think that with Finecast being well known for being "defective," they're taking a beating in compensatory replacements. I mean, should a person get a free model if it's a relatively simple fix? How many truley minor defects resulted in free stuff?

While it's a mess of their own doing, GW is in a pickle. They dont' want to turn all finecast models into "buy one, get one free," but by all accounts the Quality is truley all over the map. And this isn't FW stuff, where they can say it's optional stuff for advanced modelers. These are codex units, some of them (plague marines) are basic troops for an army!

People shouldnt be getting free models.

GW stores should be taking the defective models to be sent back. If they are letting you keep them they are violating their own policy, they should be collected and filed under "known loss".