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SickSix wrote:And as much fun as I have had calling Finecast what it is (Failcast, Failcost, etc) The guys in here are making a valid argument NOT to use those terms in thread titles, and serious posts in general.

I agree with thread titles, and the first reference or two in a post, but if you were to say something like "Citadel Finecast (referred to hereafter as Finecost/Failcast/Failcost/whatever)" I think you'd be OK from an SEO perspective. There is such a thing as too much keyword density, after all.

Another point to mention and that has been gradually reported in the 70+ page epic thread amongst others, is that GW seem to be slowly adjusting their returns policy, at least when it comes to Finecast. Previously, it used to be more or less a no-quibble returns policy; your model was borked, you called them, they replaced it, no questions asked. A few people have now reported that Customer Services are asking for both proof of purchase and proof of the damage/miscast of the product in the form of pictures and what-not. A further few people have actually reported being asked to return dodgy models, which certainly wasn't GW policy before.

This may be GW trying to audit where all the dodgy models are coming from (batch numbers, shipments, stores etc), it might be them trying to audit which models themselves seem to be more prone to error, it might just be them tightening up the returns policy or it might be a response to a growing number of people taking advantage and getting 'free' models. Who knows.

filbert wrote:Another point to mention and that has been gradually reported in the 70+ page epic thread amongst others, is that GW seem to be slowly adjusting their returns policy, at least when it comes to Finecast. Previously, it used to be more or less a no-quibble returns policy; your model was borked, you called them, they replaced it, no questions asked. A few people have now reported that Customer Services are asking for both proof of purchase and proof of the damage/miscast of the product in the form of pictures and what-not. A further few people have actually reported being asked to return dodgy models, which certainly wasn't GW policy before.

This may be GW trying to audit where all the dodgy models are coming from (batch numbers, shipments, stores etc), it might be them trying to audit which models themselves seem to be more prone to error, it might just be them tightening up the returns policy or it might be a response to a growing number of people taking advantage and getting 'free' models. Who knows.

They have always been known to ask people to send stuff back or send pics from time to time. I susppect, from what i know about customer service from my past working for a large manufacturer, that the CS manager/s may be getting fed up with the number of complaints and are building a file of problems to take to upper management, who may be in denial about the loverly new product that is their baby and was sold to them by a salesman who prommised them the world. Just a suggestion of why they may be doing this, and imho letting them see e c**p they are selling needs to be done. How many kids will accept it, and when someone in the shop says "you should fix it" will walk away and not argue.

Electro wrote:

filbert wrote:Another point to mention and that has been gradually reported in the 70+ page epic thread amongst others, is that GW seem to be slowly adjusting their returns policy, at least when it comes to Finecast. Previously, it used to be more or less a no-quibble returns policy; your model was borked, you called them, they replaced it, no questions asked. A few people have now reported that Customer Services are asking for both proof of purchase and proof of the damage/miscast of the product in the form of pictures and what-not. A further few people have actually reported being asked to return dodgy models, which certainly wasn't GW policy before.

This may be GW trying to audit where all the dodgy models are coming from (batch numbers, shipments, stores etc), it might be them trying to audit which models themselves seem to be more prone to error, it might just be them tightening up the returns policy or it might be a response to a growing number of people taking advantage and getting 'free' models. Who knows.

They have always been known to ask people to send stuff back or send pics from time to time. I susppect, from what i know about customer service from my past working for a large manufacturer, that the CS manager/s may be getting fed up with the number of complaints and are building a file of problems to take to upper management, who may be in denial about the loverly new product that is their baby and was sold to them by a salesman who prommised them the world. Just a suggestion of why they may be doing this, and imho letting them see e c**p they are selling needs to be done. How many kids will accept it, and when someone in the shop says "you should fix it" will walk away and not argue.

I have heard from numerous places that GW are attempting to lower the expected quality of their product - in essence making it 'normal' to have to fix it, or at least making it more hassle to demand a product that's fault free. Quite how legal (never mind morally dubious) this is I don't know. We saw in that recent interview that GW are aware that 'fixing' the models is common (not a 'sometimes' thing).
I for one, won't be accepting this. I'm used to a certain level of quality in the miniatures I buy, and though I *want* a lot of GW's products, I've got the patience to wait for each one to be done right.

That is so much bs. To think that they charge as much as they do, and they're purposely trying to get away with selling shoddy garbage for it as well?

Please don't assume I'm defending Finecast here, I'm just passing on some information from my friend Simon who used to work in consumer law. Also please be aware that I'm not arguing that GW should not have to replace Finecast with small holes, bent weapons, etc, merely saying that the law may well not require them to do so.

For the record, I've bought nine Finecast models and they've all been fine. It seems to me from the forums that the US experience is very different to the UK one both in terms of Finecast quality and returns policy.

Quite how legal (never mind morally dubious) this is I don't know

M'learned friend informs me that in the UK it's rather subjective (as with quite a lot of consumer law apparently).

'Fit for purpose' is a good general test. If it's sold mainly to play games (ie as a toy) then you could argue only really bad defects would count (EDIT: even then, Airfix used to sell boxes of 1/72 scale plastic soldiers that had loads of defects and folk just accepted them). if, however, it is being sold expressly to paint then minor defects could qualify. But if it's being sold to 'model' then straightening bent weapons and filling minor holes would likely be seen as akin to removing flash etc and so not really a returns issue.

Hi all,

Thanks for the responses. It sounds as if my bro got a rogue redshirt, rather than a complete change in policy. That said, I do wonder if GW have been telling staff to push the "have you tried xyz" before accepting a return, and this guy has got the wrong end of the stick.

I also wonder if GW will go down the routes suggested by some above - arguing that Finecast is a specialist product, and hence requires some "effort" to construct - much as Wayland state on their site:

"Note: If you wish to purchase any Finecast products please accept that this is a product for experienced modellers only and that some remedial effort is required due to the nature of the material and manufacturing techniques. If in doubt please do not purchase."

Maybe the current message is to check on the returns policy when buying, and to have a very good look at the model before accepting it.

Will follow further comments with interest.

SickSix wrote:The impression I am getting from the OP and a couple other posts is that the fantastic customer service that HAS been experienced with Finecast returns, may have recently changed. The OP tells of an in-store experience and another poster says that he got the same run-around over the phone.

I can only speak to my own experiences. James at the Seattle Battle Bunker has ALWAYS made good on correcting problems with Finecast models. I've also recently delt with GW Customer Service and had five "25th Anniversary" models replaced. They issued a RMA via Fed Ex and I was not asked to spend a dime. My only complaint is that it took a while but then I really don't know what their workload is like so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

doctorludo wrote:I do wonder if GW have been telling staff to push the "have you tried xyz" before accepting a return, and this guy has got the wrong end of the stick....

Possibly. As with Forge World, the Finecast stuff can be warped or bent and that should be the customer's obligation to correct as it is easily done with hot water. "Thin" bits of resin such as the base of the 25th Anniversary model are also likely not viewed as a defect by GW since the whole thing is supposed to be glued to a 60mm base anyway. I don't know anyone who has had GW Customer Service refuse them or give them a hard time when detail is obliterated or there is some other honest production defect and it isn't a super easy fix.

This was just a guy at a GW store who has no idea what he is talking about other than the BS lines his regional manager has told him to say.


Phone Customer Support and tell them about your problems.

More than likely, they will simply send you a new model. At least that is what my experience has been with all my FineCast blob models.

The actual GW Store employee knows about 1% of the facts when it comes to Finecast returns.

My last finecast purchase was Isabella as a preorder, and she arrived with a missing ear and most of a missing chin. I obviously do not have the green stuff skills to repair such damage and rang for a replacement.

Basically had to return it to Lenton so they could 'Inspect' the damage. They had a freepost address but it took an average of 8days to get back to them. So I said feth it and sent it next day, wanted it resolved asap.
A week later a new figure turned up. No explanation, no info, just sent a replacement.

Will be interested to see what happens on my next faulty finecast, but that won't happen to at least the DA or Chaos releases.

I'm sick of pre-orders, personally. This is one area where GW is spectacularly sub-par. They don't even mail you your stuff until the day it is released which means you get it a week late. Why the heck should I pre-order when I can just go to the store and buy it? The only exceptions would be limited edition type stuff.

Interesting points there Blood and Slaughter.

Please don't assume I'm defending Finecast here, I'm just passing on some information from my friend Simon who used to work in consumer law. Also please be aware that I'm not arguing that GW should not have to replace Finecast with small holes, bent weapons, etc, merely saying that the law may well not require them to do so.

The Law may not require them to do so, and as often said GW's customer service record has always been excellent. However, market forces may force them to do so - specifically, other manufacturers are able to produce miniatures at a lower price and with higher QC standards. The poor levels of QC with Finecast and the affect it causes on sales might take a while to trickle through, but right not anyone not familiar with wargaming and looking to get into it, and doing research accordingly, will place a big minus next to GW's games because of these issues.

It's interesting that you mention Airfix, and to an extent it's possible to draw parallels with that industry - for a long time Airfix sold kits that were absolutely appalling - sometimes cm gaps in plastic, very aged looking box art and style. Even leaving fans waiting for years for new kits to turn up (I think the Nimrod kit took 5 years or so, sound familiar?) Up until the last decade their were still kits from the 70's that were being used. Then, pressure in the market place from competitors, chiefly the Japanese invaders (Tamiya, Dragon, Hasegawa - producing far better kits at only a slightly higher price) and even a reinvigorated Revell (who always had a better reputation than Airfix anyway) forced Airfix to get their act together.
In fact the company did go bust at one point, and since the take over by Hornby they have been moving in the right direction - new kits, better box art, better advertising. Certainly now from my experience they can sit well alongside a lot of the other Manufacturers, whereas previously having worked in an independent that sold the kits, so many purchasers were just doing so because Airfix were British and they felt it was the right thing to do. Unfortunately for Airfix though, a far larger percentage of customers (from a dwindling customer base) looked past the 'made in' badge and at the quality of the product inside. Although it is a much larger topic, you could also draw parallels with the British car industry and how it self-destructed following the manufacturers becoming lazy and resting on their laurels.

So, if Winterdyne is correct about his assertion, that GW have seen the QC level and have deemed it to be acceptable, there are many historical examples showing that they are going down an extremely dangerous route. Other companies in other industries have had similar levels of dominance in the market place before, and lost it, and that was without the various new aggressive marketing strategies made possible by the internet. The GW miniature line has to be able to stand on its own merits - they can't make the mistake of assuming that their competitors are irrelevant, and continue to release sub-standard product at comparable (or more expensive) prices.

Basically had to return it to Lenton so they could 'Inspect' the damage

This is allowed for in the law and quite common with certain retail products when a defect is alleged. they should refund any reasonable costs you incur, however (if the item is deemed faulty).

It's interesting that you mention Airfix

Yeah, I'm not saying that following what are likely the legal standards is wise.

But the argument should probably be about what a reasonable level of customer service is with regard to Finecast faults rather than 'the law says I should get a replacement/refund' (because it probably doesn't).

In my limited experience of it, GW customer service has always been excellent.

EDIT: I should add that unlike the car industry, Airfix, etc, GW do (in the UK) control every element of the supply chain with regard to their miniatures (manufacture, distribution, retail) and so are in a rather different position to almost every other company. I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes in the end but it may have some bearing. Obviously they don't have sole control of retail, but they have far far more presence than any other single shop/chain that sells their figures.

I just had to call GW customer care on Monday of this week to get a replacement.

I had the typical excellent customer service, and they sent out my replacement without hassle or question.

Maybe its a region thing or a rep just having a bad day and letting it show to a customer?

P.S. No i am not a fan boy, just giving credit where it is due in my personal experience with GW this time.

Must say I have had only good experiences with GW customer support I got some messed up fire dragons from an online store went to my local GW showed the manager he threw them in the bin and got me a new box with no fuss at all, didn't need receipt or anything like that, also the customer support by phone is useful too. The staff member is from my experience a minority.

Gymnogyps wrote:That whole fit for use or "defect" thing? These are not defects. You and me and all of us that are displeased have unreasonable expectations. These are toys intended to be used on a tabletop. Can you recognize it from 3 feet away? Yes? Then it is perfectly fine. "Fine".

Anyone wanting more than that has unreasonable expectations above and beyond the intended use of the product. GW is training us to re-set our expectations of quality. Either you accept that this is the new standard, or go somewhere else. GW HHHobbiests are perfectly fine with this as the "best". If you are not, then you are not a part of the GW HHHobby.

If I'm paying $25 for a model whose manufacturer claims that it makes "The best model soldiers in the world!" it better be damn near perfect. Also, you are assuming that everyone collects Warhammer for the gameplay aspect, whereas many collect them for the modelling and artistic points.

I fail to see how expecting to get what you more than paid for is unreasonable.

If they want to keep producing the garbage they have been, they can drop the price and quit the false advertising.

Breotan wrote:I'm sick of pre-orders, personally. This is one area where GW is spectacularly sub-par. They don't even mail you your stuff until the day it is released which means you get it a week late. Why the heck should I pre-order when I can just go to the store and buy it? The only exceptions would be limited edition type stuff.

Their advance order system works that if you order to have it delivered to a GW then it arrives ready for day of release- if you order to have it sent home then you get it later. It's designed to get people into GW stores on release days.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:

Basically had to return it to Lenton so they could 'Inspect' the damage

This is allowed for in the law and quite common with certain retail products when a defect is alleged. they should refund any reasonable costs you incur, however (if the item is deemed faulty).
.

Aye I know, my family owns a succesful store.

The thread is about a shift by GW in their way when dealing with faulty issues, they didn't use to do this, hence my reply. It possibly speaks volumes about the ammount of returns they are getting regarding Finecast however, would love to see data on it.

Lorizael wrote:

Breotan wrote:I'm sick of pre-orders, personally. This is one area where GW is spectacularly sub-par. They don't even mail you your stuff until the day it is released which means you get it a week late. Why the heck should I pre-order when I can just go to the store and buy it? The only exceptions would be limited edition type stuff.

Their advance order system works that if you order to have it delivered to a GW then it arrives ready for day of release- if you order to have it sent home then you get it later. It's designed to get people into GW stores on release days.

Still a poor idea, when every man and his dog are trying to embrace Internet sales, GW throws a wedge between retail and online, because , what, some folks might show pics of the items they have paid for online a day before release??

Awful business call.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

Lorizael wrote:

Breotan wrote:I'm sick of pre-orders, personally. This is one area where GW is spectacularly sub-par. They don't even mail you your stuff until the day it is released which means you get it a week late. Why the heck should I pre-order when I can just go to the store and buy it? The only exceptions would be limited edition type stuff.

Their advance order system works that if you order to have it delivered to a GW then it arrives ready for day of release- if you order to have it sent home then you get it later. It's designed to get people into GW stores on release days.

Still a poor idea, when every man and his dog are trying to embrace Internet sales, GW throws a wedge between retail and online, because , what, some folks might show pics of the items they have paid for online a day before release??

Awful business call.

Not sure what you're getting at: i don't think early pics have anything to do with it, seeing as if you've advance ordered then the pics are already up in WD and on the website.
It's a way of driving people into stores so staff can talk to them- pure and simple.

Lorizael wrote:

Breotan wrote:I'm sick of pre-orders, personally. This is one area where GW is spectacularly sub-par. They don't even mail you your stuff until the day it is released which means you get it a week late. Why the heck should I pre-order when I can just go to the store and buy it? The only exceptions would be limited edition type stuff.

Their advance order system works that if you order to have it delivered to a GW then it arrives ready for day of release- if you order to have it sent home then you get it later. It's designed to get people into GW stores on release days.

Yep, and that's why I'll never pre-order from GW again.

They used to ship them out so it would arrive near or on release date, often times meaning you'd get things up to a week earlier than the release.

Nocturn wrote:

Gymnogyps wrote:That whole fit for use or "defect" thing? These are not defects. You and me and all of us that are displeased have unreasonable expectations. These are toys intended to be used on a tabletop. Can you recognize it from 3 feet away? Yes? Then it is perfectly fine. "Fine".

Anyone wanting more than that has unreasonable expectations above and beyond the intended use of the product. GW is training us to re-set our expectations of quality. Either you accept that this is the new standard, or go somewhere else. GW HHHobbiests are perfectly fine with this as the "best". If you are not, then you are not a part of the GW HHHobby.

If I'm paying $25 for a model whose manufacturer claims that it makes "The best model soldiers in the world!" it better be damn near perfect. Also, you are assuming that everyone collects Warhammer for the gameplay aspect, whereas many collect them for the modelling and artistic points.

I fail to see how expecting to get what you more than paid for is unreasonable.

If they want to keep producing the garbage they have been, they can drop the price and quit the false advertising.

This. I don't play, I paint. GW itself has said the game is a vehicle to drive model sales, which is their main business. Painting competitions have always been part of their culture, and so has painting up armies to a pretty high standard. So, in other words Gymnogyps, your argument in my humble opinion is flawed beyond belief. They encourage a culture of model painting and quality with one hand and then ask you to accept busted up models with the other. Worse, they ask you spend hours fixing individual models with GS etc. That is by any standard a big step down from the previous commitment levels from the same company. Sure, you had to pin big metal models from time to time, file mold lines and fill seams... That is ok by me. Sculpting hands back on that arent there at all, fixing pock marks on the face that obliterate an eye, not cool, or dealing with 2 halfs of a single piece of models that are 2mm off from each other is unrepairable and unacceptable.

They encourage a culture of model painting and quality with one hand and then ask you to accept busted up models with the other. Worse, they ask you spend hours fixing individual models with GS etc. That is by any standard a big step down from the previous commitment levels from the same company. Sure, you had to pin big metal models from time to time, file mold lines and fill seams... That is ok by me.

And because that sort of thing has always been part of modelling things like filling small holes in Finecast or straightening weapons is probably going to have to be taken as acceptable.

Sculpting hands back on that arent there at all, fixing pock marks on the face that obliterate an eye, not cool, or dealing with 2 halfs of a single piece of models that are 2mm off from each other is unrepairable and unacceptable.

And these would be defects that should certainly be replaced by a cmpany with decent customer service (though whether there would be a legal requirement to do so could be arguable).

There is of course a grey area in the middle where one man's 'too difficult/time consuming to fix' is another's 'straighforward'. Personally I'd like to see GW err on the generous side as I certainly don't want to piss about straightening weapons, but then I'd rather not be cleaning flash or mould lines either...

Lorizael wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

Lorizael wrote:

Breotan wrote:I'm sick of pre-orders, personally. This is one area where GW is spectacularly sub-par. They don't even mail you your stuff until the day it is released which means you get it a week late. Why the heck should I pre-order when I can just go to the store and buy it? The only exceptions would be limited edition type stuff.

Their advance order system works that if you order to have it delivered to a GW then it arrives ready for day of release- if you order to have it sent home then you get it later. It's designed to get people into GW stores on release days.

Still a poor idea, when every man and his dog are trying to embrace Internet sales, GW throws a wedge between retail and online, because , what, some folks might show pics of the items they have paid for online a day before release??

Awful business call.

Not sure what you're getting at: i don't think early pics have anything to do with it, seeing as if you've advance ordered then the pics are already up in WD and on the website.
It's a way of driving people into stores so staff can talk to them- pure and simple.

Platuan4th answered for me before I could. I'm of the same view, Isabella will be the last figure I preorder unless its a limited edition, GW only thing. Why rush to get it early at full price if I don't even get it on release day, from now on all my pre-orders will go to Maelstrom. If I have to wait, I might as well get a discount.

The new GW slogan?


"Citadel Finecast: The best new casting method in wargaming miniatures to date. The hobby of wargaming models has never been this satisfying!*"

*Just don't expect them to be perfect. I mean c'mon, you're paying more than ever before, and we are billing them as the best thing ever but jeez, guys....what's your issue?

--------------------

As an aside, I'm not surprised at all that it's getting to the point that the Customer Service guys are starting to harass and belittle the guys who want exchanges on faulty product, by saying that they are being "unreasonable", and that "they should just make the effort to fix the model they have".

I've always gotten the feeling from GW that anything that kills their profit margin in the least will make them angry against the players who are making them their money in the first place. And at least nowadays, they are the type of company who will push back by making it out to be the customer's fault, not theirs.

They want you to buy their stuff with your disposable income and then go the hell away, and only come back to buy more stuff.

Here's something I'd like to know, because everyone keeps saying that we are unreasonable:

How many of you out there have had issues with the casting on the old metal models? And I mean issues that are bad enough that you had to call customer service to get a replacement, not bent spears?

I have somewhere in the region of 30,000 points worth of models scattered across eleven different fantasy and 40k armies, and only once have I needed to replace a damaged model. I have yet to buy a single finecast model, however.

I did have kits where there were bits missing, which were replaced instantly and often off the shelf, but again that was back before the newer policies came into effect.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:In the us its by state, so we have 50 different sets of consumer law for most things.

Marginally correct.

Each state does have its individual rules, but most states have adopted the Uniform Commercial Code.

UCC 2-314 wrote:Goods to be merchantable must be at least such as

(a) pass without objection in the trade under the contract description; and
(b) in the case of fungible goods, are of fair average quality within the description; and
(c) are fit for the ordinary purposes for which such goods are used; and
(d) run, within the variations permitted by the agreement, of even kind, quality and quantity within each unit and among all units involved; and
(e) are adequately contained, packaged, and labeled as the agreement may require; and
(f) conform to the promise or affirmations of fact made on the container or label if any.

My suggestion - don't buy finecast. If you do buy finecast, buy it in a store from a real person. Inspect every part before you even cut it from the sprue. If the product doesn't meet with your expectations, return it to the store and ask for a replacement or a refund.

Actually I over heard a black shirt talking about this the other day, apparently they have the right to refuse minor airbubble returns and must attempt to up sell liquid green stuff (including a demo!) to anyone that has a problem....

Thus far hasnt happened to me, but when/if it does, its going to be world war 3.

Ravenous D wrote:Actually I over heard a black shirt talking about this the other day, apparently they have the right to refuse minor airbubble returns and must attempt to up sell liquid green stuff (including a demo!) to anyone that has a problem....

They have the "right" to refuse minor airbubble returns only insofar as they are referring to the fact that they won't be internally reprimanded within the company. However as to his "right" as a merchant to refuse a return, he is dead wrong. I can't speak for Ontario, but this is what BC has:

Business Practices and Consumer Protection Act
[SBC 2004] CHAPTER 2
Part 2 — Unfair Practices
Division 1 — Deceptive Acts or Practices

Deceptive acts or practices
4 (1) In this Division:
"deceptive act or practice" means, in relation to a consumer transaction,
(a) an oral, written, visual, descriptive or other representation by a supplier, or
(b) any conduct by a supplier
that has the capability, tendency or effect of deceiving or misleading a consumer or guarantor;
"representation" includes any term or form of a contract, notice or other document used or relied on by a supplier in connection with a consumer transaction.
(2) A deceptive act or practice by a supplier may occur before, during or after the consumer transaction.
(3) Without limiting subsection (1), one or more of the following constitutes a deceptive act or practice:
(a) a representation by a supplier that goods or services
(i) have sponsorship, approval, performance characteristics, accessories, ingredients, quantities, components, uses or benefits that they do not have,
(ii) are of a particular standard, quality, grade, style or model if they are not,
(iii) have a particular prior history or usage that they do not have, including a representation that they are new if they are not,
(iv) are available for a reason that differs from the fact,
(v) are available if they are not available as represented,
(vi) were available in accordance with a previous representation if they were not,
(vii) are available in quantities greater than is the fact, or
(viii) will be supplied within a stated period if the supplier knows or ought to know that they will not;

I'll skip the part about compensation, etc. Generally, if someone were to take a vendor to court over this, said vendor can be liable for up to a $10k fine to the government, a $1k fine to the consumer advancement fund, and then standard damages paid to the complainant. Anyway, GW has made numerous publications about how Finecast is the greatest quality evar!!!!1 and such. And they include pictures. So basically, if the model you buy is not comparable to the model in the pictures, then you are protected as a consumer, and it is in the store's best interest to give you your money back, or store credit, or something to make you happy, because you will win in court.

Here, here! We have pretty strong consumer protection in Australia too.

I for one, will not be accepting any sub-par models. I haven't bought any finecast yet, but I'm keen on getting an Arjack Rockfist, who is only availiable in finecast.

I have been buying up all the metal I can get for mt chosen armies. And I've made it pretty clear to my local GW store that I am avoiding finecast. They have been pretty cool about it. If they're cool fellas, and you use tact (and keep your voice down), they will admit to it's faults.

SickSix wrote:The impression I am getting from the OP and a couple other posts is that the fantastic customer service that HAS been experienced with Finecast returns, may have recently changed. The OP tells of an in-store experience and another poster says that he got the same run-around over the phone.

Also, in the US it is state by state. I know in FL we have the 'Better Business Bureau'. If I run into a similar problem with GW I will just call them.

And as much fun as I have had calling Finecast what it is (Failcast, Failcost, etc) The guys in here are making a valid argument NOT to use those terms in thread titles, and serious posts in general.

I wouldn't trust in the BBB at all.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/business-bureau-probe-12138262