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nkelsch wrote:

winterdyne wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:
This thread seems to be pointing out that GW are starting to take a harder stance on finecast returns, which means we are killing their numbers, which means its working. So to you my fellow gamers please continue to return your finecast and refuse to be bullied if you want to GW to fix it.

(Emphasis mine).

I most sincerely hope so.

Or there has been an uptick in fraud and abuse of GW's very very forgiving return policy and people who were getting free models on their word alone are now being challenged.

I have yet to experience any of the hyperbole on the internet in real life or met anyone who has. I have bought a dozen at least finecast, all but 1 flawless, and GW exchanged it no questions asked.

I am curious how many people who have bought GW actually bought it from GW. If you didn't buy it FROM GW, your consumer protection many mean nothing, you are only entitled to return it to your distributor you bought it from. If I buy a broken blender from walmart, I don't get to return it to the manufacturer... I return it to Walmart. I suspect people are buying these from online discounters and then walk into GW storefronts with no receipt and want a refund for full price which is not something they are entitled to. Technically you should be returning it to your internet retailer.

I agree that GW has every right to confirm that the product is actually defective, and thus prevent fraud. However, that is not the situation that people are describing. People are saying that GW staff are saying that the customer is responsible for fixing bent pieces, gaps etc.

With regard to the last paragraph, it is my understanding in the United States that the manufacturer of an item is responsible for making amends for defective products, even if you purchased them from another source. This is not to say that you cannot return the item to the place of purchase, but that the manufacturer is required by law to handle defective products.

Ravenous D wrote:
People shouldnt be getting free models.

GW stores should be taking the defective models to be sent back. If they are letting you keep them they are violating their own policy, they should be collected and filed under "known loss".

Most people do not live close enough to a GW store to return the models to one. Thus, the returns are handled through phone and e-mail communication.

Nice find Thunderfrog!!

I couldn't find any laws specific to Oregon, but I did find the same information that UCC 2-314 already posted in regards to selling merchandise in the US.

I already bought the last piece of Finecast that I needed for an army, and after looking at online shops and barter sites as well, I found that the price for a metal model that has been OOP for less than a year regularly sells for $50 plus (it's a $16 model through Finecast) I will make that my last purchase of the poor product and start kit bashing my own named models etc.

End of Line

Hi all,

An update on this situation.

My bro went to a different GW with the offending model. Got the usual "have you tried putting it in hot water blah blah blah".

Argued this wasn't appropriate for this price. The guy accepted his point, and they went through some more boxes. Apparently, as usual, the GW guy was very helpful.

The next boxes were, if anything worse, but some parts were salvageable.

By going through the three open boxes, they were able to get all the bits for a complete model that required minimal bending back into shape.

So, the opening question - are GW getting stricter about returns - is probably not the case. It sounds as if staff are being pushed to sell the "bend it back into shape" line. Where possible, I think we should insist that staff open boxes before parting with our cash. That might make the point, but it's only possible for those of us with stores nearby.

I hope GW get things together soon, as this must be hurting them, and the impact will come out elsewhere. Despite the problems, Finecast has massive potential.

I wish you had provided pictures so we could see exactly what was going on with the model your brother had issues with. Not that I think he was trying to make mountains out of molehills or anything, but the description you gave just...well, it seemed a bit strange. I kind of wonder if the fact that your brother did not have the model in hand to show the staffer what was going on might have played a large role in the staffer taking the stance he did.

However when you say "warped" and the pieces wouldn't fit together right, that (to me at least) suggests that it was not simple warping going on. Warping to me suggests that the part is just bent out of shape, not necessarily missing detail, etc.

I'm glad your brother got the model he wanted though!

He may be joining soon, so I'll let him tell it how he is. But he's certainly not the guy to make mountains out of molehills. Fields unpainted models, simple conversions etc.

He was buying a Great Beast of Gorgoroth

A trawl on other fora finds some similar examples:

http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22418

I'll give an example I didn't provide earlier because I thought (after reading the mispacked thread) that people might not believe me...

One of the boxes he opened today had no head.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, for the sake of completeness. The same thread does show what 5 minutes of hot water can do.

doctorludo wrote:He may be joining soon, so I'll let him tell it how he is. But he's certainly not the guy to make mountains out of molehills. Fields unpainted models, simple conversions etc.

I hope you (or him for that matter!) didn't take my post to be offensive in any manner. This is one of those situations where I personally feel photos make a huge difference and put the situation in context. That said...

He was buying a Great Beast of Gorgoroth

A trawl on other fora finds some similar examples:

http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22418

Yeah, that's not really "warping". It looks like the mould is not being aligned properly or something is causing parts to shrink when they should not.

I'll give an example I didn't provide earlier because I thought (after reading the mispacked thread) that people might not believe me...

One of the boxes he opened today had no head.

I would not worry about that. The mispacked thread is a bit different, in that the individual who posted it had things that made no sense in a supposedly sealed and shrinkwrapped box.

It's entirely feasible that he really did get such a thing, but the chances of it make winning the lottery look like a guarantee.

And, for the sake of completeness. The same thread does show what 5 minutes of hot water can do.

I would have liked to see the face on the second example, to be honest. It seems like that was a big issue on the first example, but not the second.

nkelsch wrote:I am curious how many people who have bought GW actually bought it from GW. If you didn't buy it FROM GW, your consumer protection many mean nothing, you are only entitled to return it to your distributor you bought it from. If I buy a broken blender from walmart, I don't get to return it to the manufacturer... I return it to Walmart. I suspect people are buying these from online discounters and then walk into GW storefronts with no receipt and want a refund for full price which is not something they are entitled to. Technically you should be returning it to your internet retailer.

While your point is technically correct I feel it is very (or at least a little) short sighted. To take your example of Wal-Mart and run with it. Yes you do take your blender back to Wal-Mart and you'll get a return or refund or a like item if the return is no longer available pretty much sight unseen right then/there. What you're not seeing is that places like Wal-Mart track all of their claims and when an item is noted to have a high enough percentage of defects it is inquired about and ultimately the product (or line) is no longer carried. There are plenty of other competing products in your Wal-Mart example to fill the gaps. This is kind of what Wayland Games did (or was it Maelstrom, or both) when FC first came out. They refused to sell and stopped carrying defective GW products. But few retailers are in a position to do the same.

This is harder to do at the volume that GW miniatures sell at. There's the fact that many brick and mortars don't carry the volume of any given GW FC to account for some customer coming in and going through 3-5 boxes to assemble one good model. There's also not that much in the way of readily available alternatives. When they made an Trayzn the Infinite, they didn't bother to make it in all three medium, or even just metal and resin. I put this in because some of the smaller mini companies that I've seen on CMON have made the same sculpt in both resin and white metal - like the metal Auscon 2011 Steampunk Dorothy I got a few months back. I'm digressing but there isn't a huge difference between resin vs metal molds - volumes of sales shouldn't affect GWs abilities to put out both resin and metals if they wanted to do so. -Back on topic- I'll take a non-researched leap and say a smallish percentage of the GW playing whole know where to go and find suitable third party products. I suppose if I didn't like my FC Triarch Stalker I could go down to the Wal-Mart and pick up a Star Wars Droidekas action figure, it's got three legs, some guns and a shield and is probably the same size. Not even going to address the genre inspired social headaches pertaining to using proxies ATM.

So where does that leave we the customers? Going to the source. Regardless of whether Wal-Mart returns your blender or if you go straight to Cuisinart if you have to replace the blender 4 times you'll get weary of the label, not the store you bought it at. But I've never been to a miniature shop as big as my Wal-Mart....so you never know.

We're in a wierd consumer spot where we want an entertainment item that is in a state of sub par manufacture and QC. But we want it. WE WANT IT, and you better give it to us. The closest example I can think of what's happening with FC is when the old Xbox's used to red ring, or the high return rate of PS2's (know a manager of a GameStop who said they were terrible), but the item is so popular the chance of defect is taken as a par for the course. It shouldn't be that way, and I hope that GW customer service is as patient with us as possible until their FC manufacture and QC get up to snuff.

I think our biggest problem is Games Workshop manufacture, QC, and customer service has been so good to us for so long that we expect way more from M & QC, and that we feel we have an open door to CS.

porkuslime wrote:I had the occasion to call GW Customer Service this last week. I had a bunged up Fire Prism (new kit) that had mismolded top turret part.

When I spoke to the CSR guy, I happened to say words to the effect of

"I have a small problem I need to talk to you folks about".

Before I went into the details, he said "Which Finecast model are you calling about".

When I informed him that I had a NON-Finecast molding issue on an Eldar Tank kit, he just about fell all over himself to help me out, and is evidently sending me a replacement sprue.

When he asked if there was anything else he could do for me.. I kinda joking mentioned that I have another Eldar tank that is missing the clear canopies for the crew area, so, (and I am quoting him here)...

"Well, since you don't have a Finecast issue, I have NO problem sending you some extra bits. Need anything else?"

So, I am getting a pack of SM bike bases now, as well.

Interesting experience..

-P

Followup-

I did NOT get a complete sprue replacement as I thought I would. I DID get the specific parts I needed and had damage issues with.. they had been cut off a sprue, and sent along in a baggie. I am a bit less than thrilled, but only because I initially felt so giddy. I DID get the spare clear canopies he said I could have, and also got 4 older cavalry/bike bases... rectangles not ovals.

Ah well.

It is great that I got the replacement parts.. I just am a bit down that my hopes didn't get fulfilled.

-P

nkelsch wrote:I am curious how many people who have bought GW actually bought it from GW. If you didn't buy it FROM GW, your consumer protection many mean nothing, you are only entitled to return it to your distributor you bought it from. If I buy a broken blender from walmart, I don't get to return it to the manufacturer... I return it to Walmart. I suspect people are buying these from online discounters and then walk into GW storefronts with no receipt and want a refund for full price which is not something they are entitled to. Technically you should be returning it to your internet retailer.

Sorry, ordered it online from GW themselves.

And you are lucky.

Between my self and my friend we're 12 for 12 for poor 25th anniversary miniatures that needed to be replaced. And this isn't the first time they've screwed the pooch either, as it were. A few years back with the big Apocalypse releases there was a special deal for about £50-60 iirc, which was the book, templates and dice in a limited backpack. We ordered ours at the same time - I paid him, he put it on his card for air miles and all was well.

When it came time to be delivered...one backpack and all was sent. We queried this, manager phoned up Mail Order and was told the other should be received by the end of the week.

End of the following week we phoned again - and were told they were getting one from the US as there had been a mix up.

It took over a month and a half and in the end my friend did not get any backpack. The manager fought tooth and nail for it as he was quite understandably upset and in the end my friend got his compensation.

What is getting us at the moment is our current manager's apathy and constant harping of the company line of 'Liquid greenstuff will fix it all'. To go 12 for 12 for a premium product is unacceptable. To be told over the phone that it's a 'known defect' does not make it acceptable. If a product in the UK has known defects they will state this in stores, on websites or even on the packaging of the product. No such thing has happened here.

Finecast is obviously causing GW major problems, but that does not make it legal for them to sell substandard goods. Unless sold as wit the expectation that the model will need work doing to it, you should be supplied with a model that is fit for purpose. Minor flaws are acceptable, even the likes of Airfix & Tamya have them. Major repairs aren't. If they are now playing silly buggers then they need to be reported to your local Trading Standards department.

Howdy all. I have been dealing with GW custserv in the US on and of for about 18 years. That doesn't qualify me as any kind of expert, but it gives me a depth of experience. I've always dealt with them on model issues that I have bought from any store, as I used to be notorious for impulse buys when away from home.

Anyway, GW woul d take my name and send me a part, no bother, right up til the day they didnt anymore. Big parts, little parts, expensive parts, cheap parts; didnt matter. Seemed to me then like some kind of "change in policy", but upon further reflection (and learning others were not having issues), I figured it was one of two things.

1. I had reached some kind of dollar amount or other limit on what they would just take on faith.
2. A couple of larger issues I got less than congenial with my rep. I didnt send them home crying to their mommas, but I DID get frustrated with being talked to about modeling miscasts as battle damage. As a company line i find it to be offensive for more tan one reason.

Maybe people are begining to run into some kind of upper limit with Finecast? Especialky if some of these stories of eight and nine tries to get the same model correct are true. Could be any number of reasons GW would enact such a policy, some benign and some not. But ultimately thats kinda what it sounds like to me, a combination of the two possibilities I mentioned above. I kniw they do (or at least did) keep a database of some sorts on such tjings, as cust serv reps would comment on previous returns I had made.

Thoughts?

As far as I can see, in the UK, they would have to give a refund because of the 'Sale of Goods Act 1979'. I am not a legal expert, (Prehaps someone who is can verify this), but this seems to cover it:

Sale of Goods Act 1979 Section 14 wrote:Implied terms about quality or fitness..

(1)Except as provided by this section and section 15 below and subject to any other enactment, there is no implied [F11term] about the quality or fitness for any particular purpose of goods supplied under a contract of sale. .

[F12(2)Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the goods supplied under the contract are of satisfactory quality. .

(2A)For the purposes of this Act, goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances. .

(2B)For the purposes of this Act, the quality of goods includes their state and condition and the following (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods— .

(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of the kind in question are commonly supplied, .

(b)appearance and finish, .

(c)freedom from minor defects, .

(d)safety, and .

(e)durability. .

(2C)The term implied by subsection (2) above does not extend to any matter making the quality of goods unsatisfactory— .

(a)which is specifically drawn to the buyer’s attention before the contract is made, .

(b)where the buyer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal, or .

(c)in the case of a contract for sale by sample, which would have been apparent on a reasonable examination of the sample.]

My source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54

Fortunatly, I haven't had to return any finecast, so I haven't tried asking. Hopefuly I won't have to.

RaptorsTallon wrote:As far as I can see, in the UK, they would have to give a refund because of the 'Sale of Goods Act 1979'. I am not a legal expert, (Prehaps someone who is can verify this), but this seems to cover it:

Sale of Goods Act 1979 Section 14 wrote:Implied terms about quality or fitness..

(1)Except as provided by this section and section 15 below and subject to any other enactment, there is no implied [F11term] about the quality or fitness for any particular purpose of goods supplied under a contract of sale. .

[F12(2)Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the goods supplied under the contract are of satisfactory quality. .

(2A)For the purposes of this Act, goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances. .

(2B)For the purposes of this Act, the quality of goods includes their state and condition and the following (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods— .

(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of the kind in question are commonly supplied, .

(b)appearance and finish, .

(c)freedom from minor defects, .

(d)safety, and .

(e)durability. .

(2C)The term implied by subsection (2) above does not extend to any matter making the quality of goods unsatisfactory— .

(a)which is specifically drawn to the buyer’s attention before the contract is made, .

(b)where the buyer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal, or .

(c)in the case of a contract for sale by sample, which would have been apparent on a reasonable examination of the sample.]

My source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54

Fortunatly, I haven't had to return any finecast, so I haven't tried asking. Hopefuly I won't have to.

Yes, the SoG act dose apply. It terms of the defects, it is a more complex question. If a washing machine come without the door fitted then it would not be ok, even though a resonably compitent person might be able to put it back together. However if you buy a computor you can't complain that you have to do a bit of assembly.. It all depends on what a "resonable person" might expect.

In the case of finecast is filling a few bubbles ok? Possibly if they are small. Is fixing big bubbles and missing details ok? Probably not and you will have a case under the SoG. When it comes to forge world there is probably a higher level of problems that is acceptable due to the nature of the product and the nature of the avrage buyer. However I have found most of FW stuff I have got to be better than any of the FC I have had.

I am sure that finecast dose not fulfill this given that, on average, most people on Dakka are going to be better modelers and painters than the average games workshop customer, never mind member of the public. They realy need to do something about it. Even if they have fixed the problems they need to say "I'm realy sorry. We had a few problems. Every batch from X date should be fine, prior to that we will replace anything no questions asked. If after this date bring it to a shop or send us a photo and return it to Freepost ABC and we will replace it."

Personaly I have just given up with Finecast.

filbert wrote:Another point to mention and that has been gradually reported in the 70+ page epic thread amongst others, is that GW seem to be slowly adjusting their returns policy, at least when it comes to Finecast. Previously, it used to be more or less a no-quibble returns policy; your model was borked, you called them, they replaced it, no questions asked. A few people have now reported that Customer Services are asking for both proof of purchase and proof of the damage/miscast of the product in the form of pictures and what-not. A further few people have actually reported being asked to return dodgy models, which certainly wasn't GW policy before.

This may be GW trying to audit where all the dodgy models are coming from (batch numbers, shipments, stores etc), it might be them trying to audit which models themselves seem to be more prone to error, it might just be them tightening up the returns policy or it might be a response to a growing number of people taking advantage and getting 'free' models. Who knows.

Of course they are. In my opinion, its eating ito their profit. In the old days, old castings of metal or plastic defects were for the most part few and far between- missing parts on occassion, or bad pieces werent that common.

But with fine cast- no matter how much cheaper the material is, when you have to send out 3 or 5, or 7 or 10 of the same model, it eats into the profits in terms of models AND shipping.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spectral Dragon wrote:



To the first person quoted, you've been very lucky indeed. As stated, it's accepted amongst modellers that you will get the occasional hole or gap to fill. An actual loss of detail has, in the past, been the line and if detail is lost it is acceptable to ask to have the model replaced. For GW products, when I bought them in metal, I literally can only think of ten models I didn't have a problem with. The parts wouldn't fit, the casting was terrible in small parts, and I had to pin every model except the mentioned ten (flayed ones, if interested.) And at one point my metal count was decently high.

The problem is with finecast its more then occassional fix. And in some cases details destroyed.

Just throwing this out there: I doubt that Finecast could be legally construed as a defective product in a court of law (even in the UK) specifically because "reasonable persons" purchase it with the expectation of cutting it up into little pieces and using adhesives to fix it together. I'm no lawyer, though.

They are advertised as multi-part models. What they don't advertise is the amount of additional work you will need to do. The air bubbles are defects, you don't (or rather shouldn't) expect them.

They do sell forgeworld stuff with the caveat that they are for adult modellers and will require significant work, as resin products tend to be in general. Finecast is simply sold as being pretty much perfect. One could reasonably assume that the finecast figures, being an 'improvement' and the 'world's finest' should at least come up to the standard of metal figures and not require *more* preparation work.

Of course GW won't market Fincast like they do Forgeworld because it will put children and the inexperienced off. One reason they switched away from lead years ago was that they could sell to a younger audience. They are hardly going to go back to saying they aren't suitable for children now.

Are these models being sold with an *expectation* that you will have to fill bubbles and re-sculpt detail? I would say no. They do ensure awareness that the customer will have to remove stuff from the sprue and assemble them, and that removing flash is part of the work involved, and possibly some gap filling. But that falls short of the problems presented with these air bubbles. Funnily enough though, I don't think White Dwarf has done an article on filling airbubbles in Finecast, and I don't think shop staff take steps to ensure customers make an informed purchase regarding this aspect of the product. In short, figures are sold with the expectation of assembly and some slight mould lines, but not bubbles and deformity.

Unless I'm wrong of course and GW staff have been retrained to raise awareness of this new aspect of hobbying. So that as well as asking you if you have paints and glue they also ask "do you already have any greenstuff at home sir? If not this may be essential for your purchase..."

The other side of course is that, legal or not, this will drive away clientele. If you're "primarily a miniatures manufacturing company" you kind of need to sell decent miniatures.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Unless I'm wrong of course and GW staff have been retrained to raise awareness of this new aspect of hobbying. So that as well as asking you if you have paints and glue they also ask "do you already have any greenstuff at home sir? If not this may be essential for your purchase..."

While I can certainly understand where you're coming from, I think that we're seeing that new training now; it's already been noted several times in this thread that GW employees are running through a quick (and identical) list of fixes for common Finecast issues, like hot water and liquid green stuff.

I think that the line between acceptable and unacceptable is the point at which you lose detail that must be resculpted rather than the point at which you need to fill some air bubbles. When I pay for a GW model I do so with the expectation that even the best casts require careful clipping, cleaning, and assembly, often to the extent of drilling and pinning things together. I've had some Finecast models with air bubbles, and I'm fine with adding a few brushstrokes of liquid greenstuff to my cleanup process.

I certainly am not happy when a model has a legitimate defect, though. Occasional miscasts, missing pieces, or air bubbles in unfortunately small and intricate areas definitely require replacements.

robpace wrote:
While I can certainly understand where you're coming from, I think that we're seeing that new training now; it's already been noted several times in this thread that GW employees are running through a quick (and identical) list of fixes for common Finecast issues, like hot water and liquid green stuff.

Is this before or after you buy the product?

robpace wrote:Just throwing this out there: I doubt that Finecast could be legally construed as a defective product in a court of law (even in the UK) specifically because "reasonable persons" purchase it with the expectation of cutting it up into little pieces and using adhesives to fix it together. I'm no lawyer, though.

A fourteen year old is not likely to have the skills to reinforce something like a Mangler Squig so that it stands unsupported in the pose in which it is supplied, nor likely to be able to repair some of the gak I've been sent in my last few orders.

It's not just Finecast, Forgeworld has their mishaps too. Even today. Last week I ordered an Avatar, a Warp Hunter, and a Wraithseer. All had issues.

from the email I just sent FW
• Avatar with Sword
o Open Hand - The last digit of the smallest “pinky” finger did not cast. It’s just not there.
o Upper Torso – The should ornament that should be sticking up off the left shoulder is broken away from the shoulder. It doesn’t look like it cast right in the first place where the break is and is hanging with the body by a piece of flash.

• Wraithseer
o Staff – Looks light the mold didn’t fill all the way at the top end of the staff blade, it can be accurately described as hollowish, swiss cheese. This hollowing is also present in the middle of the staff.

• Warp Hunter
o D-Cannon fins – There are only 2 of the 3 of the D-Cannon fins present. It doesn’t look like the third fin made it into the bag.
o D-Cannon Base – On the inside of the base assembly there is a large hole on the bottom inside caused by an air bubble in the cast.

They'll get back to me in a day I'm sure, and I'll have the next rounds of replacements same time next week. Got photos if you wanna see em. I'd say I was being the most fiddly about the Avatar Torso and the D-Cannon Base, but hey I did just pay $225 USD for the stuff (stupid exchange rate). But even the pros have their days.

On a side note GW customer service just shines through and through. When you buy a Warp Hunter you get bitz for the FirePrism turret (to make the whole thing), just not the canopy or crystals. I have extra crystals. I called GW CS and told the guy I just bought a Warp Hunter from FW and needed a canopy - asked if I could buy the whole sprue. He said no, but at the same time he found a spare and said he'd ship it to me. Just Awesome customer service, plain and simple. Now the eldar canopies for everything else and the canopy for the fire prism turret are differet from one another, and it may be I end up receiving the wrong one. But I really appreciate the gesture on that guy's behalf.

MightyGodzilla wrote:It's not just Finecast, Forgeworld has their mishaps too. Even today. Last week I ordered an Avatar, a Warp Hunter, and a Wraithseer. All had issues.

Forgeworld are fantastic with replacements. I had completely unuseable front legs for my Heirophant. I didn't notice until about a year after getting it when I started putting it together. I emailed them, and all they asked for was a batch number from the bag it was in. That was the only model in the order that didn't have a batch number. I sent them the batch numbers from everything else (in case they log these things and can trace the missing batch number through the others in the order), and they sent me the legs express without further questions. All up, it took about a week, though 3-4 days of that was waiting on the initial response.

MightyGodzilla wrote:They'll get back to me in a day I'm sure, and I'll have the next rounds of replacements same time next week.

As I said above, don't hold your breath. It can take a while - some have reported several weeks and multiple emails 0 to get a response via email. It's easier to just phone them. After the initial point of contact via email, responses are fast, but that first response takes time.

-Loki- wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:It's not just Finecast, Forgeworld has their mishaps too. Even today. Last week I ordered an Avatar, a Warp Hunter, and a Wraithseer. All had issues.

Forgeworld are fantastic with replacements. I had completely unuseable front legs for my Heirophant. I didn't notice until about a year after getting it when I started putting it together. I emailed them, and all they asked for was a batch number from the bag it was in. That was the only model in the order that didn't have a batch number. I sent them the batch numbers from everything else (in case they log these things and can trace the missing batch number through the others in the order), and they sent me the legs express without further questions. All up, it took about a week, though 3-4 days of that was waiting on the initial response.

MightyGodzilla wrote:They'll get back to me in a day I'm sure, and I'll have the next rounds of replacements same time next week.

As I said above, don't hold your breath. It can take a while - some have reported several weeks and multiple emails 0 to get a response via email. It's easier to just phone them. After the initial point of contact via email, responses are fast, but that first response takes time.

How come FW can't produce a decent product in the first place? How hard is to look at the product and go "oops!"

Electro wrote:

RaptorsTallon wrote:As far as I can see, in the UK, they would have to give a refund because of the 'Sale of Goods Act 1979'. I am not a legal expert, (Prehaps someone who is can verify this), but this seems to cover it:

Sale of Goods Act 1979 Section 14 wrote:Implied terms about quality or fitness..

(1)Except as provided by this section and section 15 below and subject to any other enactment, there is no implied [F11term] about the quality or fitness for any particular purpose of goods supplied under a contract of sale. .

[F12(2)Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the goods supplied under the contract are of satisfactory quality. .

(2A)For the purposes of this Act, goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances. .

(2B)For the purposes of this Act, the quality of goods includes their state and condition and the following (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods— .

(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of the kind in question are commonly supplied, .

(b)appearance and finish, .

(c)freedom from minor defects, .

(d)safety, and .

(e)durability. .

(2C)The term implied by subsection (2) above does not extend to any matter making the quality of goods unsatisfactory— .

(a)which is specifically drawn to the buyer’s attention before the contract is made, .

(b)where the buyer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal, or .

(c)in the case of a contract for sale by sample, which would have been apparent on a reasonable examination of the sample.]

My source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54

Fortunatly, I haven't had to return any finecast, so I haven't tried asking. Hopefuly I won't have to.

Yes, the SoG act dose apply. It terms of the defects, it is a more complex question. If a washing machine come without the door fitted then it would not be ok, even though a resonably compitent person might be able to put it back together. However if you buy a computor you can't complain that you have to do a bit of assembly.. It all depends on what a "resonable person" might expect.

In the case of finecast is filling a few bubbles ok? Possibly if they are small. Is fixing big bubbles and missing details ok? Probably not and you will have a case under the SoG. When it comes to forge world there is probably a higher level of problems that is acceptable due to the nature of the product and the nature of the avrage buyer. However I have found most of FW stuff I have got to be better than any of the FC I have had.

I am sure that finecast dose not fulfill this given that, on average, most people on Dakka are going to be better modelers and painters than the average games workshop customer, never mind member of the public. They realy need to do something about it. Even if they have fixed the problems they need to say "I'm realy sorry. We had a few problems. Every batch from X date should be fine, prior to that we will replace anything no questions asked. If after this date bring it to a shop or send us a photo and return it to Freepost ABC and we will replace it."

Personaly I have just given up with Finecast.

I would say any defect would count. In order to fix an air bubble (A defect) you would have to buy another product. (Greenstuff)
I would view this as unacceptable because I shouldn't have to buy a product (Other than the glue and paint it says you need) in order to be able to use the product.
Any lawyers who can clarify this?

Also, I can second MightyGodzilla in that GW customer service is great. If you have any problems with orders, they will sort it out.

So taking Loki's advice (that and my office email with jpegs didn't make past the exchange server) I called up Forgeworld and let them know. All I had to do was give them the batch numbers and they were very friendly about the whole process.

Now that being said there's massive work to be done on these resin kits and always had been. A huge problem with Finecast is the work involved with a resin kit is on a whole different tier and the modelling population used to metal doesn't know this, and aren't ready for it. They want their metals or plastics and are being denied that option.

My experience with resin isn't limited to FW, I've done Japanese figure models and garage kits over the decades. Finecasts, as far as resin kits go, aren't as work intensive as other resin kits. They're just resin.

I like FW stuff, but it is for the competent modeler. The price alone separates the hardcore types from the casual gamers, there is nothing wrong with either group, but hardcore gamers tend to be happy with GS, pinning, cleaning, drilling, filing and aiming to get the best possible result from their models.

Therefore doing a bit of hot/cold resin bending to make a good fit a perfect fit is more than acceptable. The man hours needed at FW to get Quality to the level some people are demanding would mean the price would have to be 400% higher. I am happy taking good models and making them better. If you want a Rolls Royce pay for one, If you want a GM cheap car great. But cannot complain that your Ford Focus isn't as good quality as that Bespoke hand made Aston Martin.

I agree completely with MightyGodzilla above.

EDIT - I have to say £20 for two apocatharies - In different armours? Why would you want two? So a Rhino or a pair of models where you can only ever field one.... madness.



I'm thinking about up a Drugs habit it will cheaper in the long run.

mwnciboo wrote:

EDIT - I have to say £20 for two apocatharies - In different armours? Why would you want two? So a Rhino or a pair of models where you can only ever field one.... madness.

You know I asked the same question, and someone replied why wouldn't I want two? I guess you're lucky if you live in a world in which money grows on trees.

Those aren't too expensive compared to other FC stuff (and indeed GW standard character models) but the new Predator is horrifically priced. £46 for something so basic.

I just got a Dragon Stug IV model kit the other day for £30 - over 700 parts, brass and metal etched components, interior detail, and modelled to be within inches and perfectly scaled to its real life counterpart. Tons of research must have gone into making it and it looks fething awesome (objective judgement there made on most German armour in WW2 ). Perhaps most importantly, it represents a lovely lit piece of engineering and mould production - despite the size, everything fits together perfectly, and you can tell it must have been a real labour of love by whoever made it. On the other hand with the FW kit you have essentially a shoebox-type design which looks like it meant to be a designed for Playmobil but was then scrapped on the basis that it was too simple. Made out of about 6 pieces, most of which are probably warped or else don't fit correctly.

Anyway, yes FW is not particularly reasonably priced, they presumably set the value so high just because they can (and let's be honest, they are not really that much more expensive than GW stuff these days).

What was this topic about again?