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A Town Called Malus wrote:

Joey wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

For that money you could also get a pretty decent deck for any TCG you like, and start playing right away.

You mean a card game costs less than highly-detailed plastic models? Well blow me down.

Jidmah wrote:
Or a PC/Console game.

Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks Manchu

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=amb_link_163789787_2?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A300703%2Ck%3AB007WPF2OK%7CB007WPF718%7CB007WPF7FE&page=1&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1VPSR9MSHS42F32NXD19&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=293278887&pf_rd_i=300703
PC/Console games cost a bucket-load and will probably be quicker to complete than to paint a ten-man squad.

Your point may have been better made by selecting a game series that isn't known for having a 4 hour long campaign and being ridiculously over-priced, I can't remember ever seeing anyone else charge £40 for a PC game without it being a special edition. For the PC you can buy Skyrim for under £30, Mass Effect 3 for under £20 (in fact you could get all 3 Mass Effect games for under £40).

Syrim and ME3 were closer t £40 on release, I think thats what he mean in the generalisation

I feel like chipping in for this thread.
When I started playing (I was rather young back then), we had a games workshop rather near by and the place was always packed. However, I found the people working there to be rather unfriendly and always forcing stuff on people. I remember when I bought my first miniatures and a friend asked about just using non-gw colors, the staff told us that the models were manufactured such that only official games workshop colors would stick... Make of that what you will. Bref, I didn't really like the staff there, but as a shop it was pretty cool and I remember some of the people there were pretty cool as well. (One of the players let me check out his Dark Eldar and I, having been young and clumsy back then, dropped (and thereby damaged) a vehicle. Even though I felt really bad and wanted to reimburse him, he told me it was cool and let it slide, telling me only to be a little more careful.)
Back on track, even though it seemed to be very popular the store closed before I had time to finish an army. In the end it seems like Games Workshop stores can be rather successful and nice places, but that the Games Workshop policies are often ruining that. From what people have been sharing here and from what I have read elsewhere, I must say that I find their whole business policy highly disgusting; but then again I am not surprised given that a group of investors with no sens or connection for and with their costumers or the game make the policies and the decisions.

Oh and @ the whole one evening partying vs. a box of miniatures discussion; I find the two hard to compare. Yes miniatures probably give you a little more for your time, but personally, I've shared a lot more good memories and crazy times out partying with friends than when painting or playing wh40k That's not to say the same goes for everyone.... so yeah, I like myself some miniatures, but choosing some plastic figures over a good time with friends isn't my thing; though that choice is for everyone to make himself.

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

Really? I just can't believe someone would have the audacity to say that. GW's rules are some of the worst written rules out there right now in the "popular" games genre. They have no consistent vision or focus and even within a specific version/edition of the rules cannot stay on focus with those filling all their supplemental books with rules exceptions because they are "cool" and then large chunks of the games completely change when a new version comes out instead of being improved and fixed. I love the games, but they are not even remotely close to streamlined. I play a game of Flames of War and the rules help run the game. I play a game of 40k anymore and half the time I am fighting the rules as much as my opponent. That is *not* streamlined.

I can easily walk into any local gaming store and find Flames of War and Warmachine support just as readily as GW games. In fact many are moving away from GW stuff almost entirely. Smaller stores get the shaft from GW marketing requirements. My FLGS has a large contingent of Flames of War players and small contingent of Warmachine players and a group for Malifaux is growing every week. There is no *regular* GW game day in the store. 40k happens occasionally and I have yet to see *any* games of WFB happen in the store. GW has done a good job in pissing off its long time players with poor rules, over priced models and general disinterest in their established player base for years and now with plenty of decent alternatives on the market they really need to change their attitude or they will find themselves out of the market. I don't expect GW to be the gamers' buddy. They are a business, but I do expect and want to feel that I am getting a decent product for a decent price and while I still fully love GW's minis, I find myself less and less interested in their rules or feeling they are worth money at all. Things like Storm of Magic that try to hide marketing's desire to have people buy more highly priced monstrous creature kits, even things that go completely against racial stories and backgrounds, behind "cool" rules for big magically focused battles. Yeah, um...yawn...give me a ruleset that I can use consistently and easily while playing without a dozen arguments where everyone has a different opinion on what a specific rule really means and I'll be a happy customer again. I love playing Flames of War where I can focus on fighting my opponent and his army and not the rules.

Skriker

In all fairness, this is the same guy who's trying to argue the cost effectiveness of toy soldiers over spending time with friends.

Fafnir wrote:In all fairness, this is the same guy who's trying to argue the cost effectiveness of toy soldiers over spending time with friends.

Yes. Exactly. And to be honest, just mix 'em. Grab your crew, grab a few brewskies. Good times.

Joey wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?

Which is totally subjective. Hanging out with possibly influential people could have a larger and more lasting impact ( with your connection, maturity growth, perspective ) than a box of plastic soldiers.

What? You mean when people go to clubs and get so drunk they can't speak, they're making connections and improving their lives?
That's bs.
A night out entertains you for an evening, a box of 40k entertains you for a week, maybe more maybe less, depends how much spare time you have.

Maybe for you it is, but certainly not for everyone ( and from the replies I see, ALOT are definitely not like you )
Maybe your argument would be more convincing if the POV wasn't just from a single person.

So to reply to what you said.
No, it's certainly not "bs'

Joey wrote:You genuinely want a "perfect" ruleset. That renders everything you say about GW invalid.

People don't want a "perfect" ruleset. They want a balanced and well laid out ruleset that doesn't get in the way of playing and degenerate into hundreds of special exceptions to the rules when yet another codex comes out that the author just thought would so super cool and couldn't be bothered to write to fit within the actual ruleset. THAT is what people want. I want to pick up Version 6 of 40k and have it be a better ruleset than Version 5 and not just a different ruleset from version 5. We want consistency. The last codex written for the latest version of the game should be no more powerful than the first codex written for that version. They should be readily comparable and there needs to be an overall and consistent vision for writing the books and the points in them. Instead they seem to just make them up on the spot. Why do the same things cost different in different SM codex books? Why can only long fangs shoot at different targets when all space marines are just as long lived? Heck why can't squads split all their fire however they choose? Why would a trooper with a lascannon shoot at infantry just because his buddies did and ignore the dreadnought that is just as close by and threatening? So many of these rules just don't make sense.

Version 3.0 just came out for Flames of War. It improved numerous areas that players had found cludgy, clumsy, weird or just plain dumb. Things that worked fine were not changed at all. In addition they gave away free softbound copies of the 3rd edition rulebook to those who already owned the 2nd edition hardback rules. The changes they made have *improved* the game. It flows better, some things make better sense, some things that hampered certain units being used regularly were removed and you can actually now learn *all* of the rules for the game by going through the rulebook and *only* looking at the pictured examples in each chapter. You don't even have to read all the rules if you don't want to in order to learn to play the game. In my book that is doing it far better and smarter than GW has ever done it. On top of that I can play in a FoW event with *any* 15mm WWII minis in my force as long as they are on the proper sized bases and oriented properly on the bases.

Skriker

It's gonna be a damn shame if GW goes under, because I personally love this game. I wish it was smarter, I wish it was more balanced, I wish it was managed better and more ethically, with more faith to the people who love it, but I do love it. And I'd be sad to see it go. :/

Well here goes the final nail in the coffin for my store: the new manager was installed and they threw away everything the community made for the tables and even tried throwing away the community built tables until we took them. Now there is like 2 tables (maybe 1) and you have to buy something to play.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Joey wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

For that money you could also get a pretty decent deck for any TCG you like, and start playing right away.

You mean a card game costs less than highly-detailed plastic models? Well blow me down.

Jidmah wrote:
Or a PC/Console game.

Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks Manchu

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=amb_link_163789787_2?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A300703%2Ck%3AB007WPF2OK%7CB007WPF718%7CB007WPF7FE&page=1&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1VPSR9MSHS42F32NXD19&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=293278887&pf_rd_i=300703
PC/Console games cost a bucket-load and will probably be quicker to complete than to paint a ten-man squad.

Your point may have been better made by selecting a game series that isn't known for having a 4 hour long campaign and being ridiculously over-priced, I can't remember ever seeing anyone else charge £40 for a PC game without it being a special edition. For the PC you can buy Skyrim for under £30, Mass Effect 3 for under £20 (in fact you could get all 3 Mass Effect games for under £40).

Port Royale 3:
http://www.gamersgate.co.uk/DD-PR3/port-royale-3
£30. Not some huge megalithic corporation, and probably considered a fair price by many.
http://www.gamersgate.co.uk/DD-SEV2/sniper-elite-v2
There's a game called Sniper Elite for £26.99. Frankly it looks terrible.
Anyway I stand by my point. Compared to a lot of other hobbies it's much cheaper. It also never expires. Spend £20 on a Tactical Squad and you'll always have a painted squad that you can use. It is a physical manifestation of your imagination. Games are fun but, by and large, when they're gone they're gone.
Particularly games like COD and FIFA that are essentially DLCs with an insane price tag (as you allude to).

TermiesInARaider wrote:It's gonna be a damn shame if GW goes under, because I personally love this game. I wish it was smarter, I wish it was more balanced, I wish it was managed better and more ethically, with more faith to the people who love it, but I do love it. And I'd be sad to see it go. :/

Well, none of us hate 40k, otherwise we wouldn't be on this forum, and we wouldn't be concerned about the direction GW is moving the game in. They've created a fantastic universe and occasionally pump out some wonderful models. We just hate the way GW manages itself, its games, and the way GW treats its consumers (not fans, consumers, because that's what we're viewed as).

riverhawks32 wrote:Well here goes the final nail in the coffin for my store: the new manager was installed and they threw away everything the community made for the tables and even tried throwing away the community built tables until we took them. Now there is like 2 tables (maybe 1) and you have to buy something to play.

Now that is heinous baggery at its finest. My condolences to you guys, I hope you find somewhere else to play.

There ain't even any GW's in my state, or in my country of origin (Israel). Have never even been inside one, but these stories don't make me want to go much....I rely on online retailers/Ebay and FLGS for purchases where I don't feel like waiting days for deliveries (paint, glue, supplies, etc. mostly).

Harriticus wrote:There ain't even any GW's in my state, or in my country of origin (Israel). Have never even been inside one, but these stories don't make me want to go much....I rely on online retailers/Ebay and FLGS for purchases where I don't feel like waiting days for deliveries (paint, glue, supplies, etc. mostly).

That's honestly the way to go, IMHO. GW is just mucking around with too much stuff to really feel comfy with them. Gimme my FLGS any day.

Joey wrote:
Anyway I stand by my point. Compared to a lot of other hobbies it's much cheaper. It also never expires. Spend £20 on a Tactical Squad and you'll always have a painted squad that you can use.

Well, except for when GW tries to discourage the use of old models (from what I've read previously, GW has tried that). Not to mention that new codecies and rules editions frequently invalidate old setups and load outs, or make them obsolete. Not to mention the development towards making the game focus on larger armies with units that progressively cost less points, requiring further investment in order to continue to play at various levels.

It is a physical manifestation of your imagination.

No. Either your imagination is very poor, or you're heavily underestimating the power of someone's imagination. Supermen in powered armour designed by someone else is not a manifestation of my imagination. I may assemble, pose, and paint them, but I never designed them. Now, I'm not saying that the 40k universe is dull or unimaginative, but rather, it's a manifestation of someone else's imagination, not my own.

Games are fun but, by and large, when they're gone they're gone.

No, they're really not. Zone of the Enders 2, my favourite game of all time, is sitting on the shelf and I can pick it up and play it whenever I want.

It's really funny too, because when you argue cost and time, ZoE2 is my favourite game of all time, and has had the largest impact on me in terms of my values for game design and concepts of fun, and yet I've spent much less time on it than I've spent on other games, including tabletop games like 40k. And yet I still consider what I experienced with ZoE2 far more valuable than anything I've experienced while playing 40k.

And if we want to argue time to cost, well, between Demon's Souls and its Sequel, Dark Souls, a cost of around $100, I've played well over 500 hours. And if we were to compare that to the time and cost ratio to that of what I've spent playing 40k over the past 4 years now, those two games alone crush 40k by a landslide.

Your comparison is bunk, really. It's like saying there's nothing to gain from Citizen Kane because Transformers 3 will keep you occupied for 31 minutes longer, and thus a better value.

If GW is going down and they are losing sales then they need to deal with it as a company and not as an individual store. Maybe the decision making people don't know what goes down in a store and just want money.

Dayvuni wrote:If GW is going down and they are losing sales then they need to deal with it as a company and not as an individual store. Maybe the decision making people don't know what goes down in a store and just want money.

I think they do know. Thats why people kept saying they are doing it for the short term results.
In other words to satisfy the share holders.

Fafnir wrote:

Joey wrote:
Anyway I stand by my point. Compared to a lot of other hobbies it's much cheaper. It also never expires. Spend £20 on a Tactical Squad and you'll always have a painted squad that you can use.

Well, except for when GW tries to discourage the use of old models (from what I've read previously, GW has tried that). Not to mention that new codecies and rules editions frequently invalidate old setups and load outs, or make them obsolete. Not to mention the development towards making the game focus on larger armies with units that progressively cost less points, requiring further investment in order to continue to play at various levels.

GW models never become obsolete.

Fafnir wrote:

It is a physical manifestation of your imagination.

No. Either your imagination is very poor, or you're heavily underestimating the power of someone's imagination. Supermen in powered armour designed by someone else is not a manifestation of my imagination. I may assemble, pose, and paint them, but I never designed them. Now, I'm not saying that the 40k universe is dull or unimaginative, but rather, it's a manifestation of someone else's imagination, not my own.

If you don't put a part of yourself into the models you paint then frankly I pity you.

Fafnir wrote:

Games are fun but, by and large, when they're gone they're gone.

No, they're really not. Zone of the Enders 2, my favourite game of all time, is sitting on the shelf and I can pick it up and play it whenever I want.

It's really funny too, because when you argue cost and time, ZoE2 is my favourite game of all time, and has had the largest impact on me in terms of my values for game design and concepts of fun, and yet I've spent much less time on it than I've spent on other games, including tabletop games like 40k. And yet I still consider what I experienced with ZoE2 far more valuable than anything I've experienced while playing 40k.

And if we want to argue time to cost, well, between Demon's Souls and its Sequel, Dark Souls, a cost of around $100, I've played well over 500 hours. And if we were to compare that to the time and cost ratio to that of what I've spent playing 40k over the past 4 years now, those two games alone crush 40k by a landslide.

Your comparison is bunk, really. It's like saying there's nothing to gain from Citizen Kane because Transformers 3 will keep you occupied for 31 minutes longer, and thus a better value.

Well done, you found an awesome quality game. I've spent over a thousand hours on Victoria, a game that I got for free with another game I wanted.
Proves nothing. I'd happily pay £20 for a game that kept me hooked for a few evenings, if it was good enough. Maybe replay it a few times, why not.
Models will ALWAYS be available to you. After spending a certain amount on an army you can play it whenever you like for free .

Joey wrote:
Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

I have to say, I always laugh when I see these arguments. Good luck on your foreveralone goals of 2012, I'd much rather do something with friends vs painting/building models if it would end up costing the same.

BRB, gonna go paint some models instead of enjoying life with friends

Joey wrote:If you don't put a part of yourself into the models you paint then frankly I pity you..

The man has 321 galleries, did you take that into consideration at all before you made that post?

Joey wrote:
GW models never become obsolete.

Yes, I'm aware that you can disregard the point completely, but please refrain from dodging the topic, I'm not fond of that.

Fafnir wrote:

It is a physical manifestation of your imagination.

No. Either your imagination is very poor, or you're heavily underestimating the power of someone's imagination. Supermen in powered armour designed by someone else is not a manifestation of my imagination. I may assemble, pose, and paint them, but I never designed them. Now, I'm not saying that the 40k universe is dull or unimaginative, but rather, it's a manifestation of someone else's imagination, not my own.

If you don't put a part of yourself into the models you paint then frankly I pity you.

I have better facets for my own imagination to develop ideas that are all my own.

Also, what Luna said.

Fafnir wrote:
Models will ALWAYS be available to you. After spending a certain amount on an army you can play it whenever you like for free .

And fancy that, so will digital games. I can pop in my copy of ZoE2 right now and play it for free too!

Joey wrote:
Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

Anyone that says 40k is stream lined never seen YMDC forum, which is in Dakka.....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/15.page

LunaHound wrote:Anyone that says 40k is stream lined never seen YMDC forum, which is in Dakka.....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/15.page

Exalted.

LunaHound wrote:Anyone that says 40k is stream lined never seen YMDC forum, which is in Dakka.....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/15.page

Twice.

I would argue that 40k is an attempt at a streamlined game, but in all the wrong ways. They've attempted to streamline it, but then step backwards and mess it all up. One great example of this is how many Ward codecies involve characters with special rules which ignore or go against rules in the main book itself.

In an attempt to break things down (such as universal special rules, standardized movement rates, wound allocation), they've ended up making one big mess of things.

purplefood wrote:

Isengard wrote:
I left after I witnessed the cold-bloodedeness of that regime first hand. I got in one day to find the regioanl manager (who was a deeply unpleasant man) and a couple of guys I did not know in the shop. He asked who I was and I asked him where the manager was as I had seen him a couple of days previously and I was expecting him to be in. he told me he had had issues with the store and therefore had come in and sacked all the staff present. I survived because I was not in that day, although he cheerfully told me he would have scaked me too. he said the policy was a clean sweep, sack the entire store staff and start over.

How did they do this?
AFAIK you cannot just up and sack an entire store staff just because the feeling strikes you the Employment Rights Act gives employees the right not to be unfairly dismissed by his employer.

Stores are/were fiefdoms unto themselves and are governed by the area managers, a lot of things GW does are probably not allowed by employment law (I seem to recall a story of them getting their knickers in a twist when they found out one of their staff who had to go up to head office to get a disciplinary was a member of USDAW. GW staff cannot be members of unions apparently).

If a store was doing bad head office would send in the inquisition (yes, really) to remove any of the taint. If said manager's "taint" had spread to all of the staff the store would be "virus bombed" and cleansed of all existing staff. And, no I am not making this up. I'm sure some other who have actually worked for GW can fill in the blanks here, but many of these things were told to me by a 10 year veteran of GW, so I take them as being somewhat accurate.

See this

LunaHound wrote:

Redbeard wrote:But the managers take the blame for falling sales figures. Doesn't make sense to me. First take away their power to make changes, and then punish them when the corporate mandates don't work. Yeah, that's GW.

The store manager told me this, I didn't really understand it so I'll try to recall what I remember ( no doubt I'll be missing pieces of info )

In order to close down a store, they need to hire a bunch of new staff and manager.
They dont care for the staff's competence of attendance as they just need someone to fill the store for 1 month.

After 1 month they'll fire all the staff ( they weren't even properly trained ) they'll "reboot" the shop.

I can't remember what reboot meant or what advantage this has for GW, maybe you know?

And this.

Isengard wrote:It's fascinating how GW approaches have changed since i worked for them back in the early 90s. That was the time when Ansell sold the company on to the accountants and they moved from a for gamers by gamers approach to a purely commerical sell-sell-sell approach.

When that started they brought in several new things which made life harder: first they changed the stocks to Citadel only. They cut out the RPG lines etc. Then they instructed us to get rid of regular customers. Their rationale seemed to be that a new customer spends lots and then as they become a regular they stop buying so much and come in to shoot the breeze. We were ordered to actively discourage regulars by not speaking to them and concetrating on speaking to new arrivals and especially kids. To enforce this secret shoppers were deployed to catch staff who spoke to regulars.

I left after I witnessed the cold-bloodedeness of that regime first hand. I got in one day to find the regioanl manager (who was a deeply unpleasant man) and a couple of guys I did not know in the shop. He asked who I was and I asked him where the manager was as I had seen him a couple of days previously and I was expecting him to be in. he told me he had had issues with the store and therefore had come in and sacked all the staff present. I survived because I was not in that day, although he cheerfully told me he would have scaked me too. he said the policy was a clean sweep, sack the entire store staff and start over.

They seem much keener on regulars now and actively try to make you at least comfortable. They have rowed back on a lot of their harsher policies such as not being allowed to use older generations of Citadel figures, no conversions, etc. They let you play with unpainted figures too. In my day people could not come into the shop with their own armies and play games like they can now.

One of the reasons I got back into this was the new attitude and set up of the stores. When I quit I vowed I would never give them another single penny of my cash.

Its not an coincidence /wink. I do know goes on behind the scene.
Oo thanks for the explanation Grimtuff :'D

Joey wrote:You mean a card game costs less than highly-detailed plastic models? Well blow me down.

A game is a game. When you can get into one game and keep playing it for years or more for the price equivalent of a single, unpainted unit, one of them is expensive.
For the equivalent of one WH40k Army, including paints, you can keep playing for decades. It worked pretty well for me.

Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks Manchu

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=amb_link_163789787_2?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A300703%2Ck%3AB007WPF2OK%7CB007WPF718%7CB007WPF7FE&page=1&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1VPSR9MSHS42F32NXD19&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=293278887&pf_rd_i=300703
PC/Console games cost a bucket-load and will probably be quicker to complete than to paint a ten-man squad.

Oh, well, you picked the worst game currently popular. So let's pick the worst possible ten man squad then, shall we? What's the cost a ten man squad of SoB again?
Mass Effect 3 took me longer to complete than painting and assembling a unit of 20 ork shoota boyz and it even has that awesome multiplayer mode which you can sink time in after completing the game. And while boyz are one of the cheapest per model unit, they were still more expensive than ME3.

Or the basic rules of most P&P games. In terms of nerdy man toyz, warhammer is about as expensive as it gets.

Right, because rulebooks+plastic models cost more than just rulebooks. Great job.

Great job at completely missing the point, I'd rather say. The BRB and the BGB are both more expesive than the base rules of any P&P game. And you need a codex to play, too. So just for the 40k rules you could get 3-4 rule books for any P&P system you like to play.
The point was, you can get into any P&P hobby by buying a book, and start playing for months and years. If you buy a box of marines and paint, your busy for no longer than a week. To actually get into 40k you have to get at least AOBR and a painter's starter set. In any other hobby, that kind of money sets you up for years.
So playing 40k is a waste of money, no matter how you look at it. Saying that having miniatures gathering dust on a shelf is a better waste of money than getting smashed and having fun for the evening is hypocrisy at best.

You genuinely want a "perfect" ruleset. That renders everything you say about GW invalid.

You must be one of those people who have been brainwashed by GW to think that perfect rules are impossible to archive.
That's a myth. If perfect rules could not be archived, then how is possible to program any real time strategy game ever? Very few of those simply crash and refuse to continue when a certain event happens. And no RTS is more or less complex than a tabletob game, GW is simply unable to playtest or even make simple test, like checking a new special rule against every other model out there. Considering that half the models are space marines with almost no difference in rules, that should be done in about a day. One day to provide an FAQ at launch of a codex for the interaction of two rules which might conflict. You know, like every other company selling rules - or even giving them out for free.
MTG has a 200 page rulebook which leaves absolutely no room for interpretation, and is perfectly readable. Any rules question can definitely answered within minutes, no RAW vs RAI, no "How would you play it", no YMDC, no dicing off. You simply have an answer.

If you believe that GW rules are as good as they get, you are as much as fool as someone thinking that Windows98 was the best windows ever.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Your point may have been better made by selecting a game series that isn't known for having a 4 hour long campaign and being ridiculously over-priced, I can't remember ever seeing anyone else charge £40 for a PC game without it being a special edition. For the PC you can buy Skyrim for under £30, Mass Effect 3 for under £20 (in fact you could get all 3 Mass Effect games for under £40).

This, a thousand times over. Besides, most people buying that series aren't exactly playing the single-player campaign, but spend days, if not weeks in playtime online shooting each other. That's more time than painting ten miniatures, too.

Hey, 98 was solid for its time! Sure, it was no XP, but it wasn't terrible!