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**LunaHound**

standard size GW army is $500 for 40K , $700 for Fantasy
for Warmachine, $300

Of course every game can be expended....

Warmachine if we say $500,
then GW can go Apocalypse and have Titans alone that can cost $1200.

Thus... we'll just go back to the standard price comparison :3

**purplefood**

LunaHound wrote:standard size GW army is $500 for 40K , $700 for Fantasy
for Warmachine, $300

Of course every game can be expended....

Warmachine if we say $500,
then GW can go Apocalypse and have Titans alone that can cost $1200.

Thus... we'll just go back to the standard price comparison :3

Are those US, Canadian or Australian dollars?

**keisukekun**

Skriker wrote:
keisukekun wrote:I don't believe GW models are prohibitively expensive. In actuality they are just about the same (or better) than other game systems. Lets look at some examples:

On a fig per fig basis your arguement works, but it loses steam when you compare prices based on what is actually *needed* to play at a standard point level for the game in question. The only games I consistently find myself playing "lower point" battles regularly because of costs is 40k and WFB. I never have that problem with Flames of War, Warmchine or any of the other mini games I play, because a new player can easily invest into the "standard" level for those games with the same amount of money a new player of 40k would be able to get something like an 800 point army with. That is specifically where GW prices are just too high for what they expect for their games and their players. For 40k they need to invest close to $500 to find out they don't like the game or the army they've chosen to start playing. $500 is a lot of money to most people.

I've got parts on order from the Plastic Soldier Company to build my next Flames of War british Late war armored company. It is costing me $75 to purchase *all* of the tanks I need to create a full 1750 army just with the tanks I am buying. I will also have enough tanks to alternate if I want 1 or 2 Firefly tanks in my platoons when I play it. If I add other minis I already have I can expand the force up to 2000 points easily, all for an extra investment of $75. There is not a *single* army in 40k that you can make to a 1750 level for $75 and therer never will be. Heck you can't even just buy the 2 troops units you need for most armies for less than $70, let alone the HQ you need for a legal force and that doesn't include the rest of the 1750 points worth of army.

THAT is the big difference between GW and other games and that is why GW is expensive. Yes this hobby can get as expensive as we want it to, and the sky is the really the limit, but the most important factor for a game's continued existence is how easily and affordably that a new player can start the hobby.

Skriker

Yeh like i said above thats the main issue that GW requires more figures to play. 40k and WFB are about large armies versus large armies and economically they cant sell you a 1500 or 2000 point army for 100-150 bucks, they would lose too much money. They COULD change the rules to bring it down to a skirmish style game but most people want to have huge armies and that naturally costs more money.

There are many aspects to GW's business model that I hate. The switch to finecast should have made those models cheaper not more expensive especially since they are using the same goddamn molds. ALso there should be lower cost alternatives to the different rulebooks. Mainly pdf like sooo many other companies are doing. In this day in age when many people have tablets or smartphones they dont want to lug around all these different books when they could carry every rulebook , codex, and other publication on their tablet with a search function.

**Joey**

LunaHound wrote:
Joey wrote:Then why are you argueing with me?
I originally replied to someone to said "the price is simply unjustifiable " and was complaining about the rules being imperfect.
I'm also a pretty slow painter so there's that. I could paint a single guard model in an avening to an *acceptable* standard. There's no way I could paint a tactical squad in a week though.
I guess people who paint really fast are getting less value for money...

Everything you said in that quote is extremely ill thought out.

How fast you "Joey" personally paints, or enjoys is irrelevant with other people.
What you find enjoyable or fun holds no water on anyone else but yourself.

"people who paint really fast are getting less value for money" is one of the funniest thing I have read on dakka.
Because.
1) You dont know whether they enjoy painting of not.
2) You dont know how efficient they are
3) You dont know if once they finish painting, they can go on to game with it sooner or not.

So far everything you said in this thread holds no ground other then speaking for yourself.

The point I was making was in the context of a money versus time ratio, do try to keep up.

**LunaHound**

purplefood wrote:
LunaHound wrote:standard size GW army is $500 for 40K , $700 for Fantasy
for Warmachine, $300

Of course every game can be expended....

Warmachine if we say $500,
then GW can go Apocalypse and have Titans alone that can cost $1200.

Thus... we'll just go back to the standard price comparison :3

Are those US, Canadian or Australian dollars?

Hmmmm lets go with Canadians then. My own IG army would cost $823.
But lets say I get 25% discount minus 12% tax + 5% shipping fee which is $757 CDN

@Joey, before insulting me that I cant keep up with something, you should do some reading first.
Figure out why time is relative and especially why you shouldn't use it for your example.

**Auxellion**

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Joey wrote:
Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

I have to say, I always laugh when I see these arguments. Good luck on your foreveralone goals of 2012, I'd much rather do something with friends vs painting/building models if it would end up costing the same.

BRB, gonna go paint some models instead of enjoying life with friends

Are you aware?

**Quintinus**

Auxellion wrote:
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Joey wrote:
Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

I have to say, I always laugh when I see these arguments. Good luck on your foreveralone goals of 2012, I'd much rather do something with friends vs painting/building models if it would end up costing the same.

BRB, gonna go paint some models instead of enjoying life with friends

Are you aware?

Hahaha yes. You see, the problem with Joey and also the OP is that they are focusing on the things in life that don't really matter.

**Joey**

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Hahaha yes. You see, the problem with Joey and also the OP is that they are focusing on the things in life that don't really matter.

Someone said that GW models were over-priced and I disagreed. I have no idea what provokes you to think that I'm a basement-dwelling, couch-masturbating neckbeard.
If you can stop partying enough to tell me I'd be very appreciative.

**Smolo82**

KplKeegan wrote:Too many store openings. Within the span of a decade they opened around four to five stores; two of them closed, the GW headquarters moved to Tennesse, the 'Battle Bunker' moved to Laurel of all places, and the Baltimore Gamesday doesn't exist anymore...

Stores aren't seeing attendence like they used to. I'm not sure if there's a root cause or not, but my Local GW sees alot of regulars, however, I don't put it past GW to totally ruin it...

I go to the one in Owings Mills, MD. The manager is a good guy and he is the reason I buy stuff at the store. He isn't elitist and talks to people like they are people not idiots. Once he leaves though Internet Discounts here I COME!

Not all GW stores have horrible players maybe you are just being an elitist jerk and looking down on people? Our store has some good mixture of players, a couple players are odd as in scaring away women cause they think he is a rapist to a just a kid with a social disorder. No big deal you just have to learn to accept people and learn how to help them and not judge them and berate them because they aren't perfect like you think you are in your mind?

**purplefood**

LunaHound wrote:
purplefood wrote:
LunaHound wrote:standard size GW army is $500 for 40K , $700 for Fantasy
for Warmachine, $300

Of course every game can be expended....

Warmachine if we say $500,
then GW can go Apocalypse and have Titans alone that can cost $1200.

Thus... we'll just go back to the standard price comparison :3

Are those US, Canadian or Australian dollars?

Hmmmm lets go with Canadians then. My own IG army would cost $823.
But lets say I get 25% discount minus 12% tax + 5% shipping fee which is $757 CDN

Okay then.
What were your original figures in?

**LunaHound**

purplefood wrote:
LunaHound wrote:standard size GW army is $500 for 40K , $700 for Fantasy
for Warmachine, $300

Of course every game can be expended....

Warmachine if we say $500,
then GW can go Apocalypse and have Titans alone that can cost $1200.

Thus... we'll just go back to the standard price comparison :3

Are those US, Canadian or Australian dollars?

You mentioning Australian dollars made me curious and I must check it out...

they have to pay $1158, that is $1188 USD

purplefood wrote:
Okay then.
What were your original figures in?

Original figure is in USD which would be $719 before tax and discount and shipping. (also the Canadian one didnt include army book )

Something amiss sir?

**KplKeegan**

Smolo82 wrote:
KplKeegan wrote:Too many store openings. Within the span of a decade they opened around four to five stores; two of them closed, the GW headquarters moved to Tennesse, the 'Battle Bunker' moved to Laurel of all places, and the Baltimore Gamesday doesn't exist anymore...

Stores aren't seeing attendence like they used to. I'm not sure if there's a root cause or not, but my Local GW sees alot of regulars, however, I don't put it past GW to totally ruin it...

Not all GW stores have horrible players maybe you are just being an elitist jerk and looking down on people? Our store has some good mixture of players, a couple players are odd as in scaring away women cause they think he is a rapist to a just a kid with a social disorder. No big deal you just have to learn to accept people and learn how to help them and not judge them and berate them because they aren't perfect like you think you are in your mind?

What the hell are you blabbering on about? I was merely remarking on how things have changed in Maryland with store closings, the Battle Bunker moving, and Gamesday leaving. Its not good.

I take extreme offense to this. But maybe my fiendish eyes are playing tricks on me as I'm not a morally superior, soap-boxing 'person' like you are.

**Auxellion**

ITT: Rustled Jimmies

**purplefood**

LunaHound wrote:
purplefood wrote:
LunaHound wrote:standard size GW army is $500 for 40K , $700 for Fantasy
for Warmachine, $300

Of course every game can be expended....

Warmachine if we say $500,
then GW can go Apocalypse and have Titans alone that can cost $1200.

Thus... we'll just go back to the standard price comparison :3

Are those US, Canadian or Australian dollars?

You mentioning Australian dollars made me curious and I must check it out...

they have to pay $1158, that is $1188 USD

purplefood wrote:
Okay then.
What were your original figures in?

Original figure is in USD which would be $719 before tax and discount and shipping. (also the Canadian one didnt include army book )

Something amiss sir?

No, i just like to know things

Which army was it?

**LunaHound**

purplefood wrote:
No, i just like to know things
Which army was it?

Personal questions are better done in PM, I dont want to be going OT.

Wow since when did you have such keen interest in me purple

**purplefood**

LunaHound wrote:
purplefood wrote:
No, i just like to know things
Which army was it?

Personal questions are better done in PM, I dont want to be going OT.

Wow since when did you have such keen interest in me purple

Fair enough, do you wanna send me a PM or shall i send you one?
It's nothing personal, i get a bit confused with foreign currency and prices sometimes so i was curious.

**LunaHound**

purplefood wrote:
LunaHound wrote:
purplefood wrote:
No, i just like to know things
Which army was it?

Personal questions are better done in PM, I dont want to be going OT.

Wow since when did you have such keen interest in me purple

Fair enough, do you wanna send me a PM or shall i send you one?
It's nothing personal, i get a bit confused with foreign currency and prices sometimes so i was curious.

Well, I don't mind responding here, but if I do get banned for it... you have to take responsibility....
The reason Im not confused with foreign currency is simple... Im Tres Frugal , and Canadian prices arnt helping either.

Thus, I almost gave up with Canadian retailers ( including discount retailers ) and stick with US discount sellers.
Though buying from US is like Russian Roulette. Canadian customs if they feel like taxing me, WILL tax me 12% AND $30- $75 fee for them to dig through my order box.

Fair enough, do you wanna send me a PM or shall i send you one?

You send and tell me what I can help you with. Im not a psychic :3

**KplKeegan**

Auxellion wrote:ITT: Rustled Jimmies

Well it irritates me to no end when someone miss-reads a post and tries shoving his moral supremecy in my face like I'm a wretch.

**Auxellion**

KplKeegan wrote:
Auxellion wrote:ITT: Rustled Jimmies

Well it irritates me to no end when someone miss-reads a post and tries shoving his moral supremecy in my face like I'm a wretch.

What are you referring to?

I read through the last five pages and came to that conclusion. I made a correct comment on the entire thread. That is simply what I chose to post after reading it.

**KplKeegan**

Auxellion wrote:
KplKeegan wrote:
Auxellion wrote:ITT: Rustled Jimmies

Well it irritates me to no end when someone miss-reads a post and tries shoving his moral supremecy in my face like I'm a wretch.

What are you referring to?

I read through the last five pages and came to that conclusion. I made a correct comment on the entire thread. That is simply what I chose to post after reading it.

Ah TL;DR the majority of the pages... My bad.

**Ravenous D**

riverhawks32 wrote:This is really the end of the line for me. So, GW has been making decisions that hurt our local store: removing tables, rearranging, over all making things wayyyy worse. The trainer who is a complete idiot would never work with our new manager in fixing the issues. This just in today, our manager was fired for bad sales. Am I the only one right now who wants to stop playing this hobby over stupid corporate management?

If the trainer is who I think it is he is the same guy that told our local GW to kick out all the regulars and start a new customer base based on foot traffic (there is no foot traffic in this one man location btw) He then took one of the gaming tables and made it a dedicated demo table (maybe 8 demos a month are run) and then wrote up the manager there for not selling enough core games (to who?). After the manager quit, the trainer then ingeniously put the a sell-bot employee in his place who then chased out all the regulars.

This same trainer has only been playing for 6 months so he (or GW IMO) doesnt have the slightest clue how a gaming store should be run profitably. He's essentially killed warhammer in the area for alot of people.

The strange thing is that the former manager of the store was actually increasing profit margins by not hounding every single person that came in, it was a relaxed atmosphere and the store was busy every day of the week. It shows that GW should really look at how they sell their product IMO.

**TheLionOfTheForest**

I think it must be hard to have a business model that needs lots or floor space, and a prime location with people walking past. Makes for large monthly rental fees. My local FLGS has over a dozen tables and caters to magic players and war machine and flames of war. That is the ONLY reason I purchase from the local store, to support my local scene. It's kind of like the tax issues in America, everyone wants all the benefits but doesn't want to pay for them. We want a place to roll out dice and game, but we don't want to spend $66 on a storm raven, when we can get it for 50ish off a net retailer. The $16 extra you spend goes for overhead to have somewhere to play.

Now my local store is in a border town between a nicer town and a not so nice town, it's probably the reason they can afford having a two story store with tons of tables. Most GW stores are in big cities, with much higher rent and a lot less floor space. There is no way the store can make money and have enough tables for people and have enough stock on hand. It's just loose loose loose. Unless you look at the store as solely an advertising mechanisim, in which case you want to have at least one table up for every game in GW product list.

My dream GW store: 10 plus tables, 80% of the product range for sale in store INCLUDING forge world. Late hours (my local store is open untill 11pm Friday and Saturday) when does your local GW store close 8pm, 9pm?

**Skriker**

keisukekun wrote:There are many aspects to GW's business model that I hate. The switch to finecast should have made those models cheaper not more expensive especially since they are using the same goddamn molds. ALso there should be lower cost alternatives to the different rulebooks. Mainly pdf like sooo many other companies are doing. In this day in age when many people have tablets or smartphones they dont want to lug around all these different books when they could carry every rulebook , codex, and other publication on their tablet with a search function.

They really need to run their game design studio in a more controlled fashion to make me happy. Ultimately I make stupid money so the prices don't ultimately impact me directly, just indirectly by not being able to convince friends to start playing, but there needs to be some kind of cohisive strategy and vision for a given version of whatever game is in question. Write the rules with the things you are hoping to include in the codex series in your mind. Keep power levels consistent in the books and the point costs consistent. Also can we do away with an army getting a super special rule that should obviously apply to everyone.

Years ago I bought a DVD set that had the first 250 issues of Dragon magazine in it. I would kill to see GW put out something similar that goes back to White Dwarf #1. I started reading White Dwarf around issue 12 or so and it was a very diverse magazine back then. The Dragon magazine version cost about $39.99 retail. I am imagining if GW did something similar with White Dwarf, they would charge a crazy price for it and would also not include any of the earlier issues that I would be most interested in reading through again.

I have to say that if GW started up something like D&D Insider and gave me access to the rulebooks and game content on line I'd be into that, as long as it was reasonably priced. D&D Insider is worth the cost alone just to have access to the compendium while running a 4th edition D&D game session.

Skriker

**Fafnir**

Joey wrote:
The point I was making was in the context of a money versus time ratio, do try to keep up.

And the entire money-to-time ratio is complete bs.

I can go to the hospice and listen to my senile grandmother ramble on for hours about how great things used to be when she was younger for free, but that doesn't exactly make it my choice source of entertainment.

**Skriker**

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:My dream GW store: 10 plus tables, 80% of the product range for sale in store INCLUDING forge world. Late hours (my local store is open untill 11pm Friday and Saturday) when does your local GW store close 8pm, 9pm?

Most week days my "local" GW store opens around 3:00pm and closes at 8:00pm. Hardly worth the effort to try and get down there during the week. They moved to a tiny store front that is barely visible from the street from a decent sized mall with regular mall type hours and space for a dozen tables. I remember when they moved to the mall store they recently moved out of, big sale. 20% off everything for a grand opening of the new location in the same mall. The store was packed with people. New move: Severely cut hours. Severely cut gaming and hobby space. Severely cut display space. Zero celebration. :( They never really even announced that the hours were completely gutted anywhere either, so I found out that the store didn't open until 3:00 the first time I went down around 12:30 to the new location. Didn't exactly have 2.5 hours to sit around waiting for the store to open. Haven't been back since and just don't feel the need to go to a GW store that is a long distance away to pay full retail price when I can give the money to the guy who runs my FLGS and who is a personal friend to me. A long, long time ago when I was first getting into citadel minis I loved going to the stores because they had EVERYTHING in the store. If they made a figure of it you should have been able to find it on the racks somewhere. Now some lines you can't find anything for in actual GW stores anymore. When I was finishing my Witchhunters army and building up a sisters of battle contingent for it, half of the stuff wasn't on the shelf in the store and of course they would say "Oh we can order it for you," but if I am going to pay to order everything at retail I'll order through the website direct, order over the free shipping level and have it show up on my own front porch instead of having to drive 25 miles one way back to the store to get them.

Skriker

**Quintinus**

KplKeegan wrote:
Auxellion wrote:ITT: Rustled Jimmies

Well it irritates me to no end when someone miss-reads a post and tries shoving his moral supremecy in my face like I'm a wretch.

There is no need to be upset.

Spoiler:

**A Town Called Malus**

Vladsimpaler wrote:
KplKeegan wrote:
Auxellion wrote:ITT: Rustled Jimmies

Well it irritates me to no end when someone miss-reads a post and tries shoving his moral supremecy in my face like I'm a wretch.

There is no need to be upset.

Spoiler:

That picture is strangely soothing...

**salix_fatuus**

All this talk about tiny GW stores reminds me of the time I was in London. Don't know if they have more than one store but the one I found must have been the tiniest store I ever been in, and this was in London of all places.
The store was so tiny and even had a low ceiling (was about to hit my head some times) so they had about the basic stuff for the more popular armies.
Fought it really strange that the store in London was such a tiny and it was even quite hidden. I walked above it in my first try finding it and only found it since I decided to take a break in my search at the cafe right across

**A Town Called Malus**

salix_fatuus wrote:All this talk about tiny GW stores reminds me of the time I was in London. Don't know if they have more than one store but the one I found must have been the tiniest store I ever been in, and this was in London of all places.
The store was so tiny and even had a low ceiling (was about to hit my head some times) so they had about the basic stuff for the more popular armies.
Fought it really strange that the store in London was such a tiny and it was even quite hidden. I walked above it in my first try finding it and only found it since I decided to take a break in my search at the cafe right across

Was that the Covent Garden store? London has several stores, including one on Oxford Street.

**NimbleJack3**

LunaHound wrote:You mentioning Australian dollars made me curious and I must check it out...

they have to pay $1158, that is $1188 USD

I know, it's ridiculous. I've dropped ~AUD$300 into the hobby already, and I have less than 500 points of miniatures from two armies (including SM!) to show for it.
The high price is mostly due to import/export shennanigans, and is the same reason why we need to pay twice as much for videogames as the UK.

I have to say - when I went into an UK GW store last December, the guy behind the counter was a hell of a lot friendlier than you get in Australia. While I was looking over SM HS, he came up and asked if there was anything he could do to help, in a completely non-patronising manner. He did seem a bit insistient in steering me towards the expensive products and pay-to-play in-house competitions, but I suppose that's just policy. As a salesperson on the shop floor, he was much better than those down under.