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@rigeld2 - I'm not trolling you any more than you are trolling me. I'm also disinclined to drop the argument, which is all we have.

@DeathReaper - The BRB tells us how to use psychic powers unless we have a specific provision in the Codex. Sanguine Sword has no such provision on duration, so we go to the BRB, which is per use. So he uses the power on his CC attacks, and the use is over. Must use again, must pass Psychic check again. That's RAW.

@liturgies of blood - You're going to have a hard time proving that the "use" of Sanguine Sword is anything other than bashing things at str 10 in close combat, especially since that's what the power says. So once you're no longer bashing in close combat, you aren't using it, and if you do like mommy should have taught you, you turn it off when not in use. Certainly the power is not in use when he's getting shot, or running, or riding in a Rhino (no matter how convenient that would be for your argument?).

I must actually recant my previous position that the RAW is ambiguous and we can't determine the duration. Thanks to this continued discussion, I am now clear that the default duration of powers is defined (each use) and that unless otherwise stated, after the power performs it's function the use is over.

jwolf wrote:@DeathReaper - The BRB tells us how to use psychic powers unless we have a specific provision in the Codex. Sanguine Sword has no such provision on duration, so we go to the BRB, which is per use. So he uses the power on his CC attacks, and the use is over. Must use again, must pass Psychic check again. That's RAW.

So in the BRB Psychic powers have a duration?

Citation needed, otherwise your argument is incorrect.

P.50 details that models normally can use one Psychic power per turn. They detail how to use a power (By rolling a Psychic test). with no restrictions on duration. therefore at its base level all Psychic powers, once used, last until the end of the game, Unless specified otherwise in the individual powers description.

Does SS specify otherwise?

Jwolf, your snide comments do nothing to help any arguement and only make you look foolish. Refrain from them and your points would be taken more seriously.

DeathReaper, it doesn't have to say that, for it to extend out of the current assault phase it must have permission which it doesn't. It doesn't need permission to end, it needs permission to continue.

It has permission, as noted in the basic Psychic powers rules on P.50.

You have permission to cast the power.

Why are you confining it to the current assault phase when the rules do not allow you to stop the power at the end of the assault phase.

The default is no duration, so it never stops unless the power itself says it does.

Jwolf, I would prefer if you kept this civil.

The effects of sanguine sword have no limit. The power is activated and you have S10 when you render your attacks in cc. It could well be that you would have s10 when you are getting shot at and all the rest but since they are not in close combat it is rather moot because RAW the effect is only in cc.
The power gives you S10 attacks and it is activated at the start of an assault phase, it could be read to be a constant modification to the combat profile of the model. The one test making your librarian a cc powerhouse would seem overpowered but life isn't fair.

@ Yonush - Thanks so much for your insightful advice. There, now I'm being sarcastic. Really anyone who is taking this discussion as serious business should get out more.

@ DeathReaper - Again with the "unless it says otherwise, powers continue forever," which is just plain made up and 100% unsupported by any RAW. I'll cite again for your continued refusal to acknowledge: BRB, P. 50 - "Psykers can only use one psychic power per player turn" (According to your definition of scope, the provides not only WHEN but SCOPE, which is also duration). "To use a psychic power successfully, the psyker must pass a Psychic test" (so now we see that to USE a power, you have to test - Sanguine Sword isn't USED except in close combat, so it is by definition NOT USED when not in close combat, which means that it must be activated again to be used again).
Psychic powers must be activated each time they are used, and unless otherwise specified, a use lasts during one player turn. Sanguine Sword specifies it is USED to make close combat attacks strike at S10. If it instead said that the Librarian was S10, you might have a case - who wouldn't want to be S10 while riding in a Rhino crowded full of half-crazy red marines? But alas, the scope is close combat (we agree on that) so once close combat is at an end, so is the use of the power, and once the use is over, you have to use it again, per the BRB as cited above.

@liturgies of blood - Where have I failed to be civil? It's not my fault that your argument is based on a fallacy. Making close combat attacks is the USE of the power; once used, a power ends unless it has permission to continue, which Sanguine Sword does not. That's BRB P.50.



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DeathReaper wrote:It has permission, as noted in the basic Psychic powers rules on P.50.

You have permission to cast the power.

Why are you confining it to the current assault phase when the rules do not allow you to stop the power at the end of the assault phase.

The default is no duration, so it never stops unless the power itself says it does.

Saying this over and over again doesn't make it true. It isn't true and is unsupported by any shred of RAW.

Perhaps I'm missing it, but where in the BRB does it say that psychic powers only last for the player turn?

Happyjew wrote:Perhaps I'm missing it, but where in the BRB does it say that psychic powers only last for the player turn?

Seriously, you'll have to read the thread. Already blue in the face.

I have read the thread, and I do not see anything in the rules that specifies how long a psychic power lasts.

jwolf wrote:@ DeathReaper - Again with the "unless it says otherwise, powers continue forever," which is just plain made up and 100% unsupported by any RAW. I'll cite again for your continued refusal to acknowledge: BRB, P. 50 - "Psykers can only use one psychic power per player turn" (According to your definition of scope, the provides not only WHEN but SCOPE, which is also duration). "To use a psychic power successfully, the psyker must pass a Psychic test" (so now we see that to USE a power, you have to test - Sanguine Sword isn't USED except in close combat, so it is by definition NOT USED when not in close combat, which means that it must be activated again to be used again).
Psychic powers must be activated each time they are used, and unless otherwise specified, a use lasts during one player turn. Sanguine Sword specifies it is USED to make close combat attacks strike at S10. If it instead said that the Librarian was S10, you might have a case - who wouldn't want to be S10 while riding in a Rhino crowded full of half-crazy red marines? But alas, the scope is close combat (we agree on that) so once close combat is at an end, so is the use of the power, and once the use is over, you have to use it again, per the BRB as cited
above.

Not wrong at all. you have permission to use a power, that power is in effect until something says otherwise. That is how a permissive rule set works.

As for the underlined it is not used in CC, it is used at the start of either players assault phase. Also the effects of the power change the Strength of the Librarian on any cc attacks the Librarian makes.

it has no effect when not making cc attacks.

Using a power has a specific definition, Rolling a Psychic test.

the effects of that use are CC attacks are made at Str 10. with no listed duration.

Using a power and being under its effects are two different things.

The Scope is CC, but not 'that turn's CC' Huge distinction.

jwolf wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:It has permission, as noted in the basic Psychic powers rules on P.50.

You have permission to cast the power.

Why are you confining it to the current assault phase when the rules do not allow you to stop the power at the end of the assault phase.

The default is no duration, so it never stops unless the power itself says it does.

Saying this over and over again doesn't make it true. It isn't true and is unsupported by any shred of RAW.

The BRB P.50 makes it true.

Okay, from the top:

DeathReaper asserts that "in Close Combat" gives the scope of the power.
I accept that Scope provides duration (events without duration do not occur), and further that this scope/duration is sufficient for us to know when the power is in use.
The BRB tells us that each USE requires the psyker to pass a Psychic test.
CC only happens in the Assault Phase. Once the Assault Phase is over, Sanguine Sword is no longer in USE.
To USE the power again, the psyker must test in the next Assault phase; the power was specifically USED in the Assault Phase, and not on a continued basis.

Powers lasting one player turn unless specified otherwise results from the acceptance of DeathReaper's definition of SCOPE above and: "Psykers can only use one psychic power per player turn" (According to DeathReaper's definition of scope, the provides not only WHEN but SCOPE, which is also DURATION - events must have duration, from instantaneous to eternal; this sentence provides a default of "per player turn")

Yes, I realized it's not as elegant as saying "Powers last forever unless you are told to turn them off" (no basis in RAW, contrary to every defined psychic power in 40K), but it at least is internally consistent and founded on the actual RAW and mutually agreed-upon definitions.

Again, you are not using the power in subsequent assault phases, as you are under the effects of the power that was used previously. Important difference.

DeathReaper wrote:

jwolf wrote:@ DeathReaper - Again with the "unless it says otherwise, powers continue forever," which is just plain made up and 100% unsupported by any RAW. I'll cite again for your continued refusal to acknowledge: BRB, P. 50 - "Psykers can only use one psychic power per player turn" (According to your definition of scope, the provides not only WHEN but SCOPE, which is also duration). "To use a psychic power successfully, the psyker must pass a Psychic test" (so now we see that to USE a power, you have to test - Sanguine Sword isn't USED except in close combat, so it is by definition NOT USED when not in close combat, which means that it must be activated again to be used again).
Psychic powers must be activated each time they are used, and unless otherwise specified, a use lasts during one player turn. Sanguine Sword specifies it is USED to make close combat attacks strike at S10. If it instead said that the Librarian was S10, you might have a case - who wouldn't want to be S10 while riding in a Rhino crowded full of half-crazy red marines? But alas, the scope is close combat (we agree on that) so once close combat is at an end, so is the use of the power, and once the use is over, you have to use it again, per the BRB as cited
above.

Not wrong at all. you have permission to use a power, that power is in effect until something says otherwise. That is how a permissive rule set works.

As for the underlined it is not used in CC, it is used at the start of either players assault phase. Also the effects of the power change the Strength of the Librarian on any cc attacks the Librarian makes.

it has no effect when not making cc attacks.

Using a power has a specific definition, Rolling a Psychic test.

the effects of that use are CC attacks are made at Str 10. with no listed duration.

Using a power and being under its effects are two different things.

The Scope is CC, but not 'that turn's CC' Huge distinction.

jwolf wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:It has permission, as noted in the basic Psychic powers rules on P.50.

You have permission to cast the power.

Why are you confining it to the current assault phase when the rules do not allow you to stop the power at the end of the assault phase.

The default is no duration, so it never stops unless the power itself says it does.

Saying this over and over again doesn't make it true. It isn't true and is unsupported by any shred of RAW.

The BRB P.50 makes it true.

Your assertions are absolutely backwards, and you offer no rules quotes that give your assertions any validity. Repitition of the same points doesn't help your case.

The default duration of a power is, using your definition of scope, one player turn (when also defines how long - again, your definition and P.50 combined). Not that the default even matters in this case, as the power itself reveals it's particular duration. Sanguine Sword is cast in ANY assault phase, and has the duration of "CC attacks". Once the Librarian is no longer making CC attacks (for example, in the next movement phase) the power is no longer in USE, and when you want to USE the power again, you have to take a Psychic test. (Again, straight from the BRB, P.50). It's as simple as purple crayon.


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DeathReaper wrote:Again, you are not using the power in subsequent assault phases, as you are under the effects of the power that was used previously. Important difference.

Except that the power has already been used, and since it is only used in CC, once CC ends, the power is no longer in use. So you have to use it again to get the effects. Passing a Psychic test is required to use a power, but it isn't using the power.

The default duration of SS is undefined. (BA P.63)

Using a power is different than being under the effects of a power (P.50 for how to use a power)

The use of the SS psychic power has an effect. It effects the Librarians CC attacks. This does not specify that it does end, so it does not. (BA 63).

#1: Is the Librarian making cc attacks? if yes go to #2

#2: Has SS been used previous to these CC attacks? If yes then Str 10

jwolf wrote:Except that the power has already been used, and since it is only used in CC, once CC ends, the power is no longer in use. So you have to use it again to get the effects. Passing a Psychic test is required to use a power, but it isn't using the power.

You are not Using the power in subsequent assault phases, you are benefiting from its effects. Subtle difference.

" the power is no longer in use."
Again you have no rules backing that the duration stops at the end of the current assault phase.

Oh dear god.

It's little plastic men.

RAI is that the Psyker may be used for 1 turn. He may use it in any turn's assault phase.

RAW is all fair and good, but you have to use some common sense.

Again, it's all a game about little plastic army men. Don't get so aggressive.

Of course the purpose of this forum is to discuss RAW, unless you specify that you are talking about HYWPI.

The word "use" is what makes the difference here.

Jwolf thinks "use" means "utilize" whereas DR & company think it means "cast". I think the easiest answer is to see how "use" is used in the descriptions of the various psychic powers. Hopefully there'll be an answer.

Here's a list:
Tunderclap
Hammerhand
Dark Excommunication
Might of Titan
Quicksilver*
Sanctuary
The Shrouding
The Summoning
Vortex of Doom
Psychic Communion
Heroic Sacrifice
Warp Quake*
Astral Aim
Cleansing Flame
Reconstruction*
Zone of Banishment**
Force Dome*
Quickening
Null Zone
Might of the Ancients
The Gate of Infinity
Vortex of Doom
Might of Heroes
Shield of Sanguinius
Unleash Rage
Wings of Sanguinius
Doombolt
Warptime*
Gift of Chaos
Wind of Chaos
Lash of Submission
Nurgle's Rot
Bolt of Change

OK, so that was a few codices. Asterisked powers are those that directly contradict jwolf's position, double asterisked are those that maybe (??) could be construed to contradict DR's position.

I have to say the evidence is strongly in favor of DR's position.

One quick thing: there are two options if the duration is unspecified:
1) There is no duration
2) The duration is continuous.

1) would mean that the power did nothing, which violates what I'll call "the flickerfield rule," which states that anything that does nothing was meant to do something, and If there is an obvious RaW solution, use that solution. Which leads me to 2).

And I don't think anyone here is arguing that this is how anyone would play it irl.

DeathReaper wrote:The default duration of SS is undefined. (BA P.63)

Using a power is different than being under the effects of a power (P.50 for how to use a power)

The use of the SS psychic power has an effect. It effects the Librarians CC attacks. This does not specify that it does end, so it does not. (BA 63).

#1: Is the Librarian making cc attacks? if yes go to #2

#2: Has SS been used previous to these CC attacks? If yes then Str 10

jwolf wrote:Except that the power has already been used, and since it is only used in CC, once CC ends, the power is no longer in use. So you have to use it again to get the effects. Passing a Psychic test is required to use a power, but it isn't using the power.

You are not Using the power in subsequent assault phases, you are benefiting from its effects. Subtle difference.

" the power is no longer in use."
Again you have no rules backing that the duration stops at the end of the current assault phase.

Wait, wait, wait - are you saying that "in CC" doesn't define WHEN The Sanguine Sword is used? That somehow I am supposed to believe that the power is used constantly, even when it says exactly when it is used? The power has a specific set of conditions for HOW and WHEN it is used. Once the condition of WHEN is no longer accurate, it is no longer in use - surely we don't disagree on this basic premise?

We agree completely that ACTIVATING a power (passing a Psychic test) is different than USING a power (as Sanguine Sword) or Under the Effects of a power (Might of Heroes or Gift of Chaos). Being under the effects of a power has no significance in this case, however, as the Librarian must use Sanguine Sword (it can't target others), and he clearly must use it at the start of an Assault Phase. Where we appear to disagree is when the use of a power ends - I assert that power is no longer in use after the time when it can be used no longer exists. Thus, even without a duration, Psychic Communion used on turn 1 would not affect Reserve rolls on turn 2 (it does specify this turn), because the power only works in the GK Movement Phase. Once the applicable phase ends, the power cannot be "in use," as using it is disallowed. And the BRB tells us in so many words what to do each time we want to use a psychic power.

@Kitzz - What about the asteriked powers makes you think they contradict my position? If they have a defined duration, they are in use for that duration. It's only when they have no defined duration that the USE of the power is necessarily the duration.

Then, jwolf, how do you explain Quicksilver, Warp Quake, Reconstruction, and Warp Time?

Kitzz wrote:Then, jwolf, how do you explain Quicksilver, Warp Quake, Reconstruction, and Warp Time?

They have codex defined durations, so the default duration of USE from the BRB isn't used, as per the rules.

They still have the word "use" in some form in their descriptions. Their definition of "use" isn't more specific for the purposes of the psychic test itself. Your argument only changes the duration, not the requirement for the test.

Kitzz wrote:They still have the word "use" in some form in their descriptions. Their definition of "use" isn't more specific for the purposes of the psychic test itself. Your argument only changes the duration, not the requirement for the test.

Not clear what that has to do with anything. Having use in their descriptions isn't important to my argument in the faintest degree. I only stick on use for the case where the power has no described duration, as use is the default duration. Once the codex gives us a duration (until your next Movement Phase, for example) the term use isn't important to me at all for defining duration. And while the power is active (in use), there is no need to take another test.

Kitzz, do you agree that The Sanguine Sword is used in close combat, and only then? Certainly you agree that it is activated then and only has game effects then, right?

It has everything to do with your conception of psychic powers. For the purposes of Warp Quake, I would have to roll to use it on my opponent's turn, according to your definition.

In addition, for reconstruction, I have to "use" the power in the movement phase, but I can't utilize its effect until the shooting phase. Since I can't test again in the shooting phase (which, according to your argument, I must) the power does nothing.

I believe that RaW the sword is "used" once and its effects are limited to whatever scope the power defines. It says that it affects the attacks. So it does. There doesn't need to be an additional psychic test every time, because otherwise the four powers I listed either don't work or work differently than is commonly conceived.

Again, my definition only matters when the power doesn't have a duration set in it's description. Warp Quake does. Reconstruction does. Quicksilver does. Warptime does. So none of them need my definition, and I would not apply my definition to them.

The Sanguine Sword has part of a duration defined - in CC. Since it doesn't specify in this round or in all rounds or as long as you own the model, we fall back to the BRB duration, which is per use. Since Sanguine Sword doesn't modify a characteristic but instead modifies an action, it must stop being in use when the action is not legal.

But I could make your same argument for those four powers. The exact same one. The power says "use" so I go to the BGB to see what it says. And it says I can only use one per turn.

Duration has nothing to do with it.

Kitzz wrote:But I could make your same argument for those four powers. The exact same one. The power says "use" so I go to the BGB to see what it says. And it says I can only use one per turn.

You could make an argument, but it wouldn't be mine. All of those powers have a duration, so if it says use in them I don't care - the BRB already tells me to use the exceptions in the codex in place of what is in the BRB.

Kitzz wrote:Duration has nothing to do with it.

It happens to everyone now and again, nothing to be ashamed of.

SS has no duration in the BA codex, it has an effect which is s10 attacks in cc. If it said in that assault then you would have a strong arguement but no duration is there. You have gone from no duration = player turn duration to an easter egg hunt for a duration.


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Also Jwolf you seem very interested in talking about sexual preformance... really going for gold there. Try sticking to the arguements in the thread rather then just trolling.

Sorry that my poor attempts at humor fail to amuse you, liturgies of blood.

Continually posting the same argument with the same lack of validity must do something for you, though. Because this is the what, 4th or is it 5th time that you've asserted your opinion without any RAW to support it?

So as not to miss the opportunity: Doing it poorly 5 times isn't the same as doing it right!

Certainly I'm actually responding with reasoned and (gods forbid!) textually supported responses, even in the face of almost zero textual backing from the other side of the fence (or in your case, pond). I'm not sure how including the occasional bit of levity, even if it's not funny to you, makes my continued efforts to bring light to the darkness transform into trolling, but I want to assure you that I won't lose sleep about it.

Ghaz wrote:Again, there is no rule that states that no listed duration equals infinite duration.

The RAW is we don't know how long the power lasts because the rules don't tell us how long it lasts. Trying to claim it lasts for the entire game has no support in the rules unless you can provide an actual quote that says it does.

By the same turn of logic, it very well could last for the entire game because the rules don't tell us how long it lasts. Trying to claim it doesn't last for the entire game has no support in the rules unless you can provide an actual quote that says it doesn't. It's simply broken.

Lordhat wrote:

Ghaz wrote:Again, there is no rule that states that no listed duration equals infinite duration.

The RAW is we don't know how long the power lasts because the rules don't tell us how long it lasts. Trying to claim it lasts for the entire game has no support in the rules unless you can provide an actual quote that says it does.

By the same turn of logic, it very well could last for the entire game because the rules don't tell us how long it lasts. Trying to claim it doesn't last for the entire game has no support in the rules unless you can provide an actual quote that says it doesn't. It's simply broken.

Actually I think between DarkReaper (helping to define scope) and I we've established how long it lasts. One Assault Phase. This does require the synthesis of the BA selection and the BRB rules, but I think I've adequately walked through that. And I use RAW and stuff!