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i was reading through the blood angel codex to pick what powers i was gonna give my librarian and noticed that sangquine sword doesnt say when it ends. so if i cast it once does it last all game

It lasts 1 turn of combat. Nice try.

The power is used at the start of the cc in either turn, that is when it is applied so beyond that it has no effect. Imagine it as super furious charge.

really...there are other assault powers that have a duration in that codex.

for example unleash rage is used in the assault phase and lasts until end of turn. then there is might of heros that lasts for that assault phase. but sanguine sword just says your close combat attacks are made at str 10.

given that other powers give a duration and this one doesnt id have to say it lasts all game



NOTE: nevermind i found my answer...apparently my searchfu is weak

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/395066.page#3295042

liturgies of blood wrote:It lasts 1 turn of combat. Nice try.

Citation needed.

It is cast at the start of either players assault phase, then it says CC attacks are made at Str 10.

No mention of duration.

Once a power is in effect it lasts as long the power specifies, in most cases (In the Blood Angel Book) they are either Instant (PSA's) or the last til the end of the current phase.

Sanguine sword does not specify when it ends, so RaW once cast it does not end.

But then are you forced to be using it every turn?

motyak wrote:But then are you forced to be using it every turn?

Why would you be forced to use it every turn?

Psychic Powers, once cast, last until they say they stop.

PSA's last until you resolve the shots, other powers last until they say as specified in the power.

Sanguine Sword does not have a listed duration, so once it is cast, it is useable until the rules say it goes away.

My bad, it is the only power on the page without duration.

wow, so it actually lasts for the rest of the game?

No, don't be daft. Sloppy writing isn't permission to pretend it does, either. What psychic power lasts all game once activated? None of them.

So long as you don't cast anything else or you have the ability to use two powers a turn then it appears so.

Feel free to play "it lasts all game" at your local gaming store, but no tournament is going to let that go (unless you run that, too). There isn't any rule that says "once a power is cast it is on until we're told it stops," but there is a rule that says "psykers can use one psychic power per player turn." Notice that the rules then explain how they do so, which involves taking a psychic check - each player turn that you choose to use a power. Notice also the lack of discussion of what happens if you have a power already running from a previous turn, anywhere. Unless a power specifically states that it differs from the basic rules, it follows them. Sanguine Sword does not state that it differs from the basic rules, so wishing that it somehow is turned on and lasts forever is just wishing.

Really? If I cast sanguin sword and I use it in my turn, i then use it in the opponents turn and again in my turn. How many powers have I used per player turn?

Specifics of psyker magic is in each of the codices as page 50 of the brb says, this one seems to have no limit of duration. Page 50 only tells you how a power should be used, not how long it can run for.
In the BA codex every other power on the page has a stated duration. It is folly to decide that because it doesn't have a limit is an oeversight and not intentional as none of us are the GW team. As there have been a few faqs and nothing has been done to clarify or to insert an eratta then we go with RAW.

DeathReaper wrote:

motyak wrote:But then are you forced to be using it every turn?

Why would you be forced to use it every turn?

Psychic Powers, once cast, last until they say they stop.

PSA's last until you resolve the shots, other powers last until they say as specified in the power.

Sanguine Sword does not have a listed duration, so once it is cast, it is useable until the rules say it goes away.

I meant you wouldn't be able to then use unleash rage in the next turn, unless sanguine sword stopped, because you can be only using one per turn. Right? (assuming not an epistolary)

Well by implication if you cast unleash rage then you have stopped using sanguine sword, unless you are an epistolary.

Ok cool. I'm not arguing the length thing, thats just amusing. Me and my group will keep playing it the one assault phase way.
The thing I was wondering about was whether or not it would be stopped by another power. Cheers lit.

No listed duration != infinite duration. There is no more support for the power lasting until the end of the game than there is for it lasting until the end of the turn.

liturgies of blood wrote:Well by implication if you cast unleash rage then you have stopped using sanguine sword, unless you are an epistolary.

Incorrect, if you are going with the ludicrous interpretation that Sanguine Sword has an infinite duration then you would not be able to use any other psychic powers (unless you are an epistolary) for the rest of the game because there are no rules allowing the use of a second power to then 'cancel' the first power.

So once you use Sanguine Sword, it would then be in effect for the rest of eternity, but that would also mean your Librarian is stuck using that power for the rest of eternity and cannot use another power unless he is Epistolary or is otherwise allowed to use more than one power per turn.

motyak wrote:I meant you wouldn't be able to then use unleash rage in the next turn, unless sanguine sword stopped, because you can be only using one per turn. Right? (assuming not an epistolary)

No, because once you use the Sanguine Sword, you are free to use your other power in the next player turn, while SS is still active.

This is because P.50 details how to use a Psychic Power: "To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test..."

If you do not have to pass the Psychic test then you are not using the Sanguine Sword power that turn, but its effects are still in play and you still benefit from the earlier use of SS.

So Sanguine Sword is used and its effect do not go away as they have no listed duration. Then in the next player turn, while still under the effects of Sanguine Sword you can use Unleashed Rage, because to use a psychic power...

Ghaz wrote:No listed duration != infinite duration. There is no more support for the power lasting until the end of the game than there is for it lasting until the end of the turn.

Except you cast it, and its effects are present when the Librarian is making CC attacks.

So anytime the librarian makes a close combat attack it is made at Str 10, as per the casting of Sanguine Sword.

Again, please quote the rule that states that no listed duration = infinite duration. You're making an assumption that has no basis in any printed rule.

Ghaz wrote:Again, please quote the rule that states that no listed duration = infinite duration. You're making an assumption that has no basis in any printed rule.

It must have infinite duration.

In the BA codex psychic powers have a listed duration as specified in the power.

PSA's last until you resolve the shots.

All SS says is: "The power is used at the start of either players Assault phase. The Librarians close combat attacks are made at Strength 10"

Compare this with Might of heroes which states "Gains [X] attacks in that assault phase"

See the difference.

Had they added "in that assault phase" to SS you would be correct, but it is not there, so your argument is invalid.

Once cast the power lasts until something says it stops.

Sanguine Sword never stops.

And we're back to why even talking about rules on the Internet is a bad idea.

DeathReaper makes up a "truth", whole cloth, ignores rational discussion, finds what he believes is a loophole that matches up with his entirely RAW unsupported position, and now we're in the Fox News "what is accurate" argument:
One person with a crazy position and other rational people pointing out that it isn't supported anywhere by the rules. But some percentage of people will go with the crazy position, because DeathReaper speaks with conviction and the rational people admit to the inadequacies of the RAW.

Play however you like in your FLGS, DeathReaper. Don't cry to me when you can't play that nonsense anywhere else.

jwolf wrote:And we're back to why even talking about rules on the Internet is a bad idea.

DeathReaper makes up a "truth", whole cloth, ignores rational discussion, finds what he believes is a loophole that matches up with his entirely RAW unsupported position, and now we're in the Fox News "what is accurate" argument:
One person with a crazy position and other rational people pointing out that it isn't supported anywhere by the rules. But some percentage of people will go with the crazy position, because DeathReaper speaks with conviction and the rational people admit to the inadequacies of the RAW.

Play however you like in your FLGS, DeathReaper. Don't cry to me when you can't play that nonsense anywhere else.

Did he say he plays like that?
Anywhere?

He's 100% correct that RAW says it doesn't end.
Obviously, it's intended to end. And obviously most people wouldn't even try to play it that way - I'd bet DR is one of those people.

YMDC discusses RAW unless you say you're not.

He is NOT 100% correct in saying the RAW says it doesn't end - The RAW simply never specifies when it ends (which is a far cry from specifying that it does not).

He IS 100% incorrect in saying that RAW says it continues until it says to stop.

So if he's going to argue a position that is not supported by RAW, what's the point unless he's trying to play it that way?

jwolf wrote:He's also 100% incorrect in saying that RAW says it continues until it says to stop.

So if he's going to argue a position that is not supported by RAW, what's the point unless he's trying to play it that way?

He's not wrong though - what rule is saying that psychic powers end?

The rules are permissive, not exclusionary. If there is no rule giving permission for the power to continue, it does no do so. And there is no such rule.

jwolf wrote:The rules are permissive, not exclusionary. If there is no rule giving permission for the power to continue, it does no do so. And there is no such rule.

The power has permission to work.
Going with your interpretation the power is instantaneous and does absolutely nothing.

The rules are permissive. Pychic powers are allowed be cast in the brb and you are limited to casting one per turn. The rules for each power are coverd in their respective codices. Where in the rules does it say a power lasts for one turn only?

By strict RAW, the power has no duration, which would make it last a time period of null, not forever - almost every other power has a duration specified (or is a PSA, which has it's own definition). Since I think we can agree that there would be no reason to include a power with no effect, the writers must have intended some duration. I'm willing to graciously have the power extend for the duration of the assault phase, but granting the power eternal operation based on Deathreaper's assertion that null = infinite isn't in any way reasonable.

I'll say again, there is no RAW support for null duration equals infinite duration. By RAW, Sanguine Sword has a duration of undefined or null, which is most commonly interpreted as zero (an empty set). As most people are rational enough to understand that the power should have some duration to be included, treating this as lasting for the current Assault phase is acceptable.

Related question: Might of Heroes says the Librarian (or other model in the same unit) gains "+d3 attacks in that Assault Phase." This also does not specify that the attacks go away at the end of that Assault Phase - would you argue that the recipient keeps those attacks for the rest of the game because there is no specified duration, only a specified time of receipt?



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liturgies of blood wrote:The rules are permissive. Pychic powers are allowed be cast in the brb and you are limited to casting one per turn. The rules for each power are coverd in their respective codices. Where in the rules does it say a power lasts for one turn only?

Right next to where it says that powers last forever unless cancelled.

Again, there is no rule that states that no listed duration equals infinite duration.

The RAW is we don't know how long the power lasts because the rules don't tell us how long it lasts. Trying to claim it lasts for the entire game has no support in the rules unless you can provide an actual quote that says it does.

Might of heroes says "in that assault phase" that is duration right there. Time of receipt is duration, to get another d3 attacks you need another pschic test.