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@ shabby.

One combo I have heard meantion from: Miniwargamer Dave on Youtube (though not specifically the sword) was:

During your turn - Blood Lance, During other players turn - Sanguine Shield. Though I have heard mention of the sword / rage combo from same player.

jwolf wrote: "To use a psychic power successfully, the psyker must pass a Psychic test" (so now we see that to USE a power, you have to test - Sanguine Sword isn't USED except in close combat, so it is by definition NOT USED when not in close combat, which means that it must be activated again to be used again).

Straw man. If you use a switch to turn on a light, the light doesn't shut off simply because you've stopped using the switch, or used another switch to turn on the ceiling fan. Even if every other switch in the house has a timer on it. Nowhere in the rules does it say that a psyker cannot be under the effects of two different powers at once, nor do they say that being under the effects of such a power prevents the psyker from using a different power. Nowhere on page 50 is duration mentioned. Indeed, how to apply psychic powers isn't discussed on pg 50 at all.

If the effect is that the psyker makes attacks at Str. 10, then the psyker makes attacks at Str. 10, and if no duration is specified, then the effect lasts forever by default.


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jwolf wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

Ghaz wrote:Again, there is no rule that states that no listed duration equals infinite duration.

The RAW is we don't know how long the power lasts because the rules don't tell us how long it lasts. Trying to claim it lasts for the entire game has no support in the rules unless you can provide an actual quote that says it does.

By the same turn of logic, it very well could last for the entire game because the rules don't tell us how long it lasts. Trying to claim it doesn't last for the entire game has no support in the rules unless you can provide an actual quote that says it doesn't. It's simply broken.

Actually I think between DarkReaper (helping to define scope) and I we've established how long it lasts. One Assault Phase. This does require the synthesis of the BA selection and the BRB rules, but I think I've adequately walked through that. And I use RAW and stuff!

All I've seen you do is attempt to invent a convention, and insult people's sexual performance (I chuckled ). You've established nothing.

Gosh, Lord Hat, if only some other people had said that, I'd have recognized the error of my ways! Oh, wait, there are pages of people saying the same thing, with the same complete lack of citation. And lo and behold, I am equally unmoved by your assertion without textual support.

And no, mine is not a straw man argument. Your analogy isn't applicable. Try this one, which is analogous (I find that useful in an analogy!): You can drive your car at 60 miles an hour on the road. When you park your car and get out, your car isn't still travelling at highway speeds (relative to the Earth, let's not get into celestial mechanics). SS is like driving your car at highway speeds, parking your car is the end of the assault phase. You simply cannot make CC attacks outside of the Assault Phase, so SS simply cannot be in use. That's all RAW, all backed up in the pages of this thread repeatedly, and never disputed by RAW citation by anyone.

More: I don't think I've invented a convention. I think I've described what is actually written, in a case we rarely consider (because what else besides SS and MoH are so poorly described, durationally (I did invent that word, just now)), and looked at the exact wording of the BRB and the SS power to draw the most complete conclusion possible.

And I'm glad someone else finds my silly jokes amusing. I make no claim to actually being funny, but if we can't laugh at ourselves, we're just going to be confused when other people do, you know?

jwolf wrote: You simply cannot make CC attacks outside of the Assault Phase,

Death or glory.

RAW
The power is used at the start of either players assault phase. The librarians close combat attacks are made at strenght 10.

Line 1: The power is used.... This covers when you make a psychic test and everything on page 50 is covered then. One power is used etc etc.
Line 2: The effect of a successful test is discussed. The librarians's cc attacks limits the scope of the power to attacks rather then his strenght stat but it speaks nothing of duration. The lack of duration would mean you need to fall back on the brb so where in that does it limit the duration of the effect of powers?

@ Lord Hat - Hey, not bad. But if you aren't Tank Shocked, you don't Death or Glory. So is the power still running until you determine that you aren't making a death or glory attack? Is there any possible way to use a CC attack in the Shooting Phase? And how do we allow the power to be active in another Player turn? No permission is given for that in Sanguine Sword, and that's not how the BRB says we do it.

@ liturgies of blood - "can use one psychic power per player turn." Right there. Default duration for powers is "one player turn". Almost every power describes itself as not following that (most powers are for less than a player turn, Warp Quake is for a full game turn).

jwolf wrote:

@ liturgies of blood - "can use one psychic power per player turn."

Where does this state or imply that being under the effect of a psychic power is using it? If that's the case then only psykers can 'use' Guide, and Doom, as only psykers have permission to use psychic powers.

No you have it wrong there default number of psyker powers used ie. number of psychic tests per turn is one. I can do a, b times in a turn. Does that mean that a's effect lasts a turn?
When you do logical questions in sats etc that would be the one where you tick not enough information.

jwolf wrote:

Kitzz wrote:But I could make your same argument for those four powers. The exact same one. The power says "use" so I go to the BGB to see what it says. And it says I can only use one per turn.

You could make an argument, but it wouldn't be mine. All of those powers have a duration, so if it says use in them I don't care - the BRB already tells me to use the exceptions in the codex in place of what is in the BRB.

Kitzz wrote:Duration has nothing to do with it.

It happens to everyone now and again, nothing to be ashamed of.

Poor taste in humor aside, please try to understand what I'm saying. Whether or not you care about their duration, if you consider the term "use" to be the general and the powers to be specific examples, you are mistaken. None of the powers overrides the "use" as explained in the BGB. They tell you when they can be used. Telling you when they can be used has nothing to do with how long they last or how you activate them (e.g., with a psychic power).

The definition you suppose "use" to have in this context is still the same for all these examples. None of them specifically overrides the general definition in the rulebook. To only use your interpretations of "use" for one power and not for the others is to pick and choose the RaW you want when you want. All they do is reference use, not redefine it, which is what is necessary to make a specific vs. general argument.

@ Kitzz - Obviously we'll have to disagree. The BRB says use these rules unless the codex says do something different; in the cases mentioned we don't use the "use" definition for duration from the BRB because the codex powers specify their duration, overriding the BRB. I don't see how I'm mistaken in this - the BRB says to follow exceptions from the codex instead of the BRB, where applicable. The duration for most powers is spelled out in the codices, so the duration from the BRB is overwritten, which is exactly what the BRB says to do. I'm not cherrypicking RAW; I'm following it exactly.

I'm certainly not redefining use depending on which power it applies to; I'm ignoring "use" from the BRB to determine the duration of powers that have duration defined in their codices.

@ Lord Hat - In the specific case of Sanguine Sword, the target of the power is also using it. So the Librarian uses the power and is also under the effect of the power. Not sure what Doom would have to do with this, and not even sure what you're intending to prove, but I clearly don't get your point. Surely you don't mean to say that the Librararian who uses Sanguine Sword isn't under the effect of the power?

@ liturgies of blood - What are you trying to say? If you're trying to say that the duration of Sanguine Sword as defined in the Blood Angels codex is undefined, we agree!

Hey, this is fun. Let's see if we can break the game even more!

I cast SS in game 1. Do I keep using it in game 2 and game 3? Do I have to retest before game 4 or can I continue using SS all the way into game 8? It doesn't say it ends right?

Also what if I want to use a different model? If I sell the old one, does the guy who buys it from me get the bonus or can I claim the bonus for my new finecast model? We don't both get the bonus, do we?


Citations please.

I am saying it is undefined, you don't get to put in a limit on undefined just because you want to. You have not backed up the RAI idea that it lasts one assault phase, since we are talking in RAW then we must limit ourselves to that.

Without any guidance it must be assumed that the power's effect continues as we have a defined point of initiation but no words on when the effect ends. The BRB does not state any limits on how long a power's effects may last to say it does is to introduce your own material.

I cited the rule, if you don't want to read my posts then feel fine to keep your head in the sand. I can't site something that I am saying is not on page 50.

If I cast SS on my new finecast model and then I lend him to my friend who plays Ultramarines, does my friend get to use the bonus for his game as well? The bonus never ends right? So the model would always have the bonus once it has been cast, right?

liturgies of blood wrote:I am saying it is undefined, you don't get to put in a limit on undefined just because you want to. You have not backed up the RAI idea that it lasts one assault phase, since we are talking in RAW then we must limit ourselves to that.

Without any guidance it must be assumed that the power's effect continues as we have a defined point of initiation but no words on when the effect ends. The BRB does not state any limits on how long a power's effects may last to say it does is to introduce your own material.

I cited the rule, if you don't want to read my posts then feel fine to keep your head in the sand. I can't site something that I am saying is not on page 50.

Undefined is null, which we read as zero in computing. In regular math undefined is simply undefined, which makes it useless for determining anything. One things for sure, no definition of undefined as infinite is valid, which is the one you keep roaming back to, for reasons I can't fathom. I actually have backed up my idea that it lasts one Assault Phase using RAW from a couple of different directions; you can keep ignoring that if you want, but you certainly haven't refuted my position effectively.

I do not agree with your assertion that without guidance the power must continue indefinitely, nor do I agree that we have no guidance. Nor am I introducing my own material.

What rule did you cite that I'm ignoring? I agreed with what I think you said in your last post (heck, that is one of the reasons I believe the power is limited, the undefined state in the BA Codex means we have to go back to the BRB looking for a definition).

Anyway, it's late and you should get some sleep, Irish.

Well to deal with that point look at the fact that it's an ultramarine army. Does an ultramarine librarian have ss?

Jwolf, are you having a go? Please tell me you are trying to have a go at me on some slowed nationalistic bent?
The post was at radiation. All of the stuff on how computers and math work when it comes to analysis of language fall. Computers are not english or language in the way that people use it, undefined =/= zero nor infinite but when it defines an effect but no limit on the effect then why do you impose a limit? Putting in a limit without a quote from the brb is what I am objecting to. I haven't seen any backing for your insertion of a limit.
To speak maths, ss is a function the function where is y=10 when a is greater then x but less than b , where a is the point at which you cast ss. a must be equal to the start of an assault phase. The boundry condition b is not defined so what do you do?

jwolf wrote:@ Kitzz - Obviously we'll have to disagree. The BRB says use these rules unless the codex says do something different; in the cases mentioned we don't use the "use" definition for duration from the BRB because the codex powers specify their duration, overriding the BRB. I don't see how I'm mistaken in this - the BRB says to follow exceptions from the codex instead of the BRB, where applicable. The duration for most powers is spelled out in the codices, so the duration from the BRB is overwritten, which is exactly what the BRB says to do. I'm not cherrypicking RAW; I'm following it exactly.

I'm certainly not redefining use depending on which power it applies to; I'm ignoring "use" from the BRB to determine the duration of powers that have duration defined in their codices.

And I'm not agreeing to disagree with you because you still don't understand what I'm saying yet. I am ALSO ignoring "use" for the purposes of determining duration of psychic powers. Your interpretation of "use" in the SS example has more to it than duration, though, which is what I've been trying to show you. I've been making an argument ad absurdem. Your definition of "use" for the SS example is flawed because it doesn't hold up as a general case for other psychic powers.

Your assumption that "use" has anything at all to do with duration is flawed. That is what I have been trying to show you. The "use" part you think is overwritten isn't overwritten.

I will try to show you by example. This is an analogy to the argument you are making:

A power weapon is a close combat weapon that follows all the rules for a normal close combat weapon except it ignores armor saves. A force weapon is a power weapon that also does [x]. Therefore, because a force weapon is a specific type of power weapon, the rules for normal close combat weapons don't apply to it.

Except that argument is flawed. Force weapons still follow the rules for normal close combat weapons except the specific things they do differently. They don't redefine how close combat weapons work, or modify the to-hit chart.

What you are saying is that because certain psychic powers specify durations, they aren't "used" the same way. Use has nothing to do with duration. It isn't overwritten because the specific part of those psychic powers tells us what they do and how long they last. They are still used. They still follow the same rules for use.

Use is not overwritten. Duration and function are. But use is not.

You are trying to argue that "use" implies a duration or has a default duration. But it doesn't. The other psychic powers I showed were examples of where use is utilized without any temporal reference whatsoever. This means the designers did not conceive of "use" in the same way you are. Therefore, your interpretation is flawed, because if your definition of "use" is used broadly (which, again, it must be, because "use" is never specified differently in any of the powers) it makes some powers useless and others different from common interpretation.

Do you see what I am saying yet?

jwolf wrote:

@ Lord Hat - In the specific case of Sanguine Sword, the target of the power is also using it. So the Librarian uses the power and is also under the effect of the power. Not sure what Doom would have to do with this, and not even sure what you're intending to prove, but I clearly don't get your point. Surely you don't mean to say that the Librararian who uses Sanguine Sword isn't under the effect of the power?

My point is that being under the effect of a power and taking advantage of said effect CANNOT equate to using that power, otherwise PP's such as doom and guide could only ever affect a psyker.
Do I think the power was intended to last the entire game? No. Would I ever try to play it that way? Again, no. But that doesn't mean that the rules magically twist and contort to mean that all powers have a default duration unless specified otherwise. Your argument fails simply because the rules don't say, or imply anything close to what you propose.

liturgies of blood wrote:I am saying it is undefined, you don't get to put in a limit on undefined just because you want to. You have not backed up the RAI idea that it lasts one assault phase, since we are talking in RAW then we must limit ourselves to that.

Without any guidance it must be assumed that the power's effect continues as we have a defined point of initiation but no words on when the effect ends. The BRB does not state any limits on how long a power's effects may last to say it does is to introduce your own material.

I cited the rule, if you don't want to read my posts then feel fine to keep your head in the sand. I can't site something that I am saying is not on page 50.

I'm not here to back up RAI. I asked it the bonus for SS continues on into consecutive games. That's the way it appears according to the logic you and your pals are using. Are you going to stick your neck out and answer or what? You say we "don't get to put a limit on undefined." If the model has the SS bonus how can you take that bonus away if I let an Ultramarine player use it. He could pick whatever powers he wanted and he would still get the bonus attached to the model because we "don't get to put a limit on undefined."

If you get your models lost wounds back at the start of the next game then the slate is wiped clean. If you are playing in some crazy battle royal league where your army goes on to the next game with the same losses then maybe. Do any in game effects affect your next game? Do I get to use lemartes with his increased strength and attack profiles in the next game because he took a wound in this game?

The reduction of an arguement to an absurd is not analysis of the issue.

I think Lemartes has to take a wound within the game for his bonus to apply. I'm not the one arguing that we can't set limits. Your main argument is that we can't set limits on undefined. Wounds are "reset" at the beginning of each game. That has nothing to do with SS being undefined. I think argueing that SS is not limited to the specific phase is to delve into the absurd. This is the logical limit. What is being used to rationalize SS lasting longer than the initial phase is not logic. It is rationalization. According to this rationalization there is nothing to stop SS ever. Unless you can find something to stop it besides the stop at the original phase.

@Radiation - I don't think anyone is actually playing with Sanguine Sword lasting more than a round; we're all arguing about what is written, not what the RAI or even HAWPI. At least, I hope that's the case?

@ Lord Hat - We agree that being under the affect of a power and using a power are not necessarily the same thing. They are the same thing for Sanguine Sword, however. I disagree, obviously, on what the rules say regarding duration - based on the acceptance of DeathReaver's definition of scope from what, page 2?

@ Kitzz - I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying, but if I do, I disagree with your position. For my purposes, "use" defines the event of using a power, and in the undefined case, defines the duration of the power. That's all I care about "use" for - defining the duration of use (in the case of Sanguine Sword, one assault phase - maybe only one close combat in one assault phase is even more accurate - , as it has no other defined duration). The other definitions of "use" aren't involved in the question at hand, so being active are inactive or whatever make no difference to the question or answer I'm looking for.

@ liturgies of blood - I was simply noting that it was about 1am there, and meant no disrespect to you based on your being Irish. Even though the majority of my blood isn't Irish, I am fair skinned, formerly red haired, and feel a certain affection for your country. I couldn't agree more with your assertion that we have an unassigned variable in the BA power Sanguine Sword.

wow you guys are still going on about this...how hard can it be. there is really only 2 pages to look at.

like i said i got my answer (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/395066.page#3295042) and i feel that anyone else reading this looking for a simple answer also would be overwhelmed. trying to figure out what one word means to one person and what it means to another isnt helping anyone else out. implying what a word is just means your looking at RAI instead of what the word actually is.

ive read over pg 50 in the BRB and 63 in the blood angel codex. in pg 50 on the first paragraph (non bold paragraph) ive learned that "The psychic powers available to our models are not discussed further here, but are described in detail in the codexes, where you will find complete rules for individual powers." using that sentence i then looked at pg 63 in the blood angel codex at the Sanguine sword entry. i then compared that entry to the rest of pg 63. making that comparison ive came to the conclusion that everyone else in the link provided came to. i then got my answer. and just to confirm i didnt miss anything i fully re-read pg 50 or the BRB and again the only thing that jumped out at me was the sentence i posted here. but yes you will probably tell me that "psykers can use one psychic power per player turn." but reading the following sentence the BRB tells you how to use a power. it doesnt say anything that to continuously be under the effect of a psychic power that you must continue to "use" the power. and by "use" im referring to making a psychic test. however what the BRB does say in that regards is "The psychic powers available to our models are not discussed further here, but are described in detail in the codexes, where you will find complete rules for individual powers."

by the way the answer i came to was that there was no ending duration other than that the power just says that my close combat attacks are made at str 10

see its simple. at first i didnt understand but after reading 4 pages of arguments back and forth over little things like what the word "use" means to different people i re-read those two pages and it made sense even if i didnt agree with the outcome. to me with this question i posted there shouldnt have been such very heated debate on something that isnt printed on those two pages when you are arguing about RAW.

Shabby wrote: there shouldnt have been such very heated debate on something that isnt printed on those two pages.

You're touching on a problem with this entire forum. Well.. perhaps the entire internet.

Was someone hot during that? I certainly found it mildly entertaining, and actually fairly worthwhile, once other people actually started trying to examine the question instead of just pretending their assertions were correct.

For me? Pff. Couldn't care less. I'm actively poking sticks at the St. Celestine / Squig thread just b/c I think it's funny and I tangentially understand the issues.

But for someone who's trying to figure out how to play something this forum is sometimes not the best reference. Especially if they need the info this week.

jwolf wrote:@ Lord Hat - We agree that being under the affect of a power and using a power are not necessarily the same thing. They are the same thing for Sanguine Sword, however. I disagree, obviously, on what the rules say regarding duration - based on the acceptance of DeathReaver's definition of scope from what, page 2?.

Being under the effect of a power and using a power are not the same thing. They are not the same thing for Sanguine Sword.

As using a power is described in the BRB as taking a Psychic test. Being under the effects of Sanguine Sword does not make you take another psychic test.

To say that is to say that the only person who can "use" Unleashed Rage is the Librarian that cast it. Which is incorrect.

DeathReaper wrote:

jwolf wrote:@ Lord Hat - We agree that being under the affect of a power and using a power are not necessarily the same thing. They are the same thing for Sanguine Sword, however. I disagree, obviously, on what the rules say regarding duration - based on the acceptance of DeathReaver's definition of scope from what, page 2?.

Being under the effect of a power and using a power are not the same thing. They are not the same thing for Sanguine Sword.

As using a power is described in the BRB as taking a Psychic test. Being under the effects of Sanguine Sword does not make you take another psychic test.

To say that is to say that the only person who can "use" Unleashed Rage is the Librarian that cast it. Which is incorrect.

No it isn't. Let's take a power that is targeted on someone else, like Guide. If the Farseer uses Guide on another unit, the Farseer has to check and the other unit is under the effects of Guide. Sanguine Sword can only be targeted on the Librarian, who both uses and is the target of the power. So to be under the effects of SS and be using the power are contain the same set (set A = set B for Sanguine Sword, both sets contain the Librarian only, hence my "same thing," which is literally true but I now understand is confusing). Using a power as described in the BRB REQUIRES taking a Psychic test, it isn't TAKING a Psychic test. (That's like saying having gasoline in the car is driving a car).

I do not love the attempts to relate really stupid things to what I'm saying. I bother to take the time to figure out what you mean, making the assumption you aren't impossibly stupid; you can do me the same favor, I hope?

jwolf wrote:I do not love the attempts to relate really stupid things to what I'm saying. I bother to take the time to figure out what you mean, making the assumption you aren't impossibly stupid; you can do me the same favor, I hope?

I am not sure to what you are referring.

However onto the Use a psychic power part:

P.50 details how you USE a psychic power: "To USE a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal Leadership test."

That is how one will "Use" a psychic power.

if you cast doom on the enemy, it is the Psyker that is using doom, but the enemy suffers its effects.

If you can not agree to this, then we can not have any further discussion.

The point, Jwolf, is that "to use" can either be a continuous state like you're proposing ( close combat attacks are strength 10, and once the model stops making CCA's then it is no longer using the power) , or "to use" can be a non-continuous state (like flipping a light switch). So far you have yet to cite any rule ( and this is the kicker, in a rules debate you should really cite rules) that supports your claim that using a PP is more than "take psychic test, apply effect(s)."

The BGB doesn't list any conditions or modifiers or restrictions for psychic powers other than stating that a test must use the psyker's own leadership. This means that all of this data must come from the codex, and when a paramater isn't listed you must assume one of two things: the paramater is zero, or infinite. Since in this case a duration of zero means the power does nothing, then infinite duration is the only other option.

As to scope, the scope of the power is close combat attacks. Without further limitaion, the scope contains any and all close combat attacks for the rest of the game.

There is plenty of precedent in the game to support my position. Temporary effects have their duration listed, permanent affects either don't have their duration listed, or state "for the rest of the game." Examples:

Vulkan's Chapter Tactics: Lose x, gain y. No duration listed. Permanent.
Nemesor Zandrekh's Adaptive Tactics: target gains x. Duration listed. Temporary.
Nemesor Zandrekh's Counter Tactics: target loses x. Duration listed. Temporary.
Entropic Strike (vs armour saves): Duration listed. Permanent.
Entropic Strike (vs armour values): No duration listed. Permanent.

DeathReaper wrote:As using a power is described in the BRB as taking a psychic test.

DeathReaper wrote:P.50 details how you USE a psychic power: "To USE a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal Leadership test."

That is how one will "Use" a psychic power.

Okay, I don't care about the outcome of this or squiggification or umpteen other ongoing semantic slapfights, but this is just wrong. And it's blatantly wrong, enough so that the word "stupid" might come into play. Passing a psychic test is clearly an enabling condition that must be met in order to then USE a psychic power. It's not in and of itself the USE of that power, it's a necessary precursor. Just like jwolf sez.

If you take and pass a psychic test, you can use the power.
If you take and fail a psychic test, you can NOT use the power.

See how "taking the test" isn't the same as using the power?

If you can not agree to this, then we can not have any further discussion.

I vote for this!


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Lordhat wrote:when a paramater isn't listed you must assume one of two things: the paramater is zero, or infinite.

I don't see this either. Duration often can and must be inferred from context. You're trotting out a number of Necron examples below, go find me the duration for Lord of the Storm, b/c I think you've just proved killing Imotekh doesn't stop it. (This would be a good thing for my lists.)