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liturgies of blood wrote:Might of heroes says "in that assault phase" that is duration right there. Time of receipt is duration, to get another d3 attacks you need another pschic test.

Oddly, all the Grey Knight close combat powers that give bonuses specify a duration, not just "in that assault phase." Maybe the Blood Angels psychic powers are written with assumptions of rational readers? Or are they just poorly written? Only one of the three has an actually spelled out duration; the other two have implied durations at best.

The way I read it is it would only work during the phase the power is cast.

Part 1 of the power gives the when and by not giving any more information you have no permission to extend it.

Did you use the power at the begining of the assault phase - Then your cc attacks are made @ str 10

There doesn't need to be a duration. The word "The" in the rule forces you to use the power to gain the benifit in "the" assault phase not "any" assault phase.

FWIW death reaper has never played it like he is saying RAW it works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The way I read it is it would only work during the phase the power is cast.

Part 1 of the power gives the when and by not giving any more information you have no permission to extend it.

Did you use the power at the begining of the assault phase - Then your cc attacks are made @ str 10

There doesn't need to be a duration. The word "The" in the rule forces you to use the power to gain the benifit in "the" assault phase not "any" assault phase.

FWIW death reaper has never played it like he is saying RAW it works.

jwolf wrote:By strict RAW, the power has no duration, which would make it last a time period of null, not forever - almost every other power has a duration specified (or is a PSA, which has it's own definition). Since I think we can agree that there would be no reason to include a power with no effect, the writers must have intended some duration. I'm willing to graciously have the power extend for the duration of the assault phase, but granting the power eternal operation based on Deathreaper's assertion that null = infinite isn't in any way reasonable.

I have permission to cast the power.
I cast the power.
I have permission to be STR10.
Where is the restriction of that permission? (ie a stated duration)

Related question: Might of Heroes says the Librarian (or other model in the same unit) gains "+d3 attacks in that Assault Phase." This also does not specify that the attacks go away at the end of that Assault Phase - would you argue that the recipient keeps those attacks for the rest of the game because there is no specified duration, only a specified time of receipt?

In the next assault phase, did you cast Might of Heroes in "that Assault Phase"?

Yonush wrote:The way I read it is it would only work during the phase the power is cast.

Part 1 of the power gives the when and by not giving any more information you have no permission to extend it.

Did you use the power at the begining of the assault phase - Then your cc attacks are made @ str 10

There doesn't need to be a duration. The word "The" in the rule forces you to use the power to gain the benifit in "the" assault phase not "any" assault phase.

FWIW death reaper has never played it like he is saying RAW it works.

#1 Yonush is correct, I do not play it how the RAW states. (I hardly ever use Sanguine Sword anyway, I usually use Unleashed Rage with TH/SS Terminators.)

Which "The" are you referring to?

#2 Sanguine Sword says: "THE power is used at THE start of either players Assault phase. THE Librarians close combat attacks are made at Strength 10"

None of those THE's denote a duration. You use it at the start of either players Assault phase. so it is in effect from when you cast it until... the end of the game, since you have used it you gain the benefits of it, until it is not being used.

DeathReaper wrote:
#1 Yonush is correct, I do not play it how the RAW states.

Every time I see a rules discussion going mad with unreasonable arguments I see your name on it. Now you come and say you don't play like that so I seriously have no idea why you do this.

Anyway so according to half this thread I can now cast psychic shoot attacks once a game and use it every turn since they don't specify a duration. Cool

Bacms wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
#1 Yonush is correct, I do not play it how the RAW states.

Every time I see a rules discussion going mad with unreasonable arguments I see your name on it. Now you come and say you don't play like that so I seriously have no idea why you do this.

Because this forum is for discussing how the rules are written. Not your interpretation of them.

Anyway so according to half this thread I can now cast psychic shoot attacks once a game and use it every turn since they don't specify a duration. Cool

Wrong. PSAs are defined - you make the test, you follow the rules surrounding the PSA, you're done.

rigeld2 wrote:

Bacms wrote:

Anyway so according to half this thread I can now cast psychic shoot attacks once a game and use it every turn since they don't specify a duration. Cool

Wrong. PSAs are defined - you make the test, you follow the rules surrounding the PSA, you're done.

I read the rules but still cannot find a duration for it. It does say you can only use one per turn but does not say it ends that turn. So according to your logic I could use next turn without casting it. I might be missing some part of the rules though.

Bacms wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
#1 Yonush is correct, I do not play it how the RAW states.

Every time I see a rules discussion going mad with unreasonable arguments I see your name on it. Now you come and say you don't play like that so I seriously have no idea why you do this.

That may be your perception, but RAW says what RAW says. (And i never use Sanguine Sword, I use Unleashed Rage 99.999% of the time.)

Bacms wrote:Anyway so according to half this thread I can now cast psychic shoot attacks once a game and use it every turn since they don't specify a duration. Cool

No you can not use PSA's because it has an effect that is practically instant.

You cast the PSA, then we look at what the PSA does.

It allows you to fire an Assault 1 weapon.

"Using a PSA counts as firing a ranged weapon" P.50

So we fire a ranged weapon, an the effect ends. This is because of the wording of P.50 Using a Psychic power is defined on P.50 as well, it details rolling the dice for a Psychic test. This is why PSA's are not cast once and last the whole game.

DeathReaper wrote:

Yonush wrote:The way I read it is it would only work during the phase the power is cast.

Part 1 of the power gives the when and by not giving any more information you have no permission to extend it.

Did you use the power at the begining of the assault phase - Then your cc attacks are made @ str 10

There doesn't need to be a duration. The word "The" in the rule forces you to use the power to gain the benifit in "the" assault phase not "any" assault phase.

FWIW death reaper has never played it like he is saying RAW it works.

#1 Yonush is correct, I do not play it how the RAW states. (I hardly ever use Sanguine Sword anyway, I usually use Unleashed Rage with TH/SS Terminators.)

Which "The" are you referring to?

#2 Sanguine Sword says: "THE power is used at THE start of either players Assault phase. THE Librarians close combat attacks are made at Strength 10"

None of those THE's denote a duration. You use it at the start of either players Assault phase. so it is in effect from when you cast it until... the end of the game, since you have used it you gain the benefits of it, until it is not being used.

Except that you do need to have a duration to have any effect - if you don't believe me, ask your significant other. We both agree that the designer must have meant for it to have SOME duration, but you have no grounds in logic or RAW to support that <null> = infinite, which is the basis of your argument and completely invalid as RAW or (god forbid) logic.

jwolf wrote:
Except that you do need to have a duration to have any effect - if you don't believe me, ask your significant other. We both agree that the designer must have meant for it to have SOME duration, but you have no grounds in logic or RAW to support that <null> = infinite, which is the basis of your argument and completely invalid as RAW or (god forbid) logic.

No listed duration means once you cast it you can use it when listed.

Sanguine Sword, once cast, says you are allowed to use it in close combat.

Thus whenever you are making close combat attacks, you attack at Str 10. RAW fulfilled, Logic fulfilled.

As for the underlined, we do not know what the designers intentions are, as the roleplay does not say anything about a duration.

so I do not agree that we know what the designer "meant"

DeathReaper wrote:
So we fire a ranged weapon, an the effect ends. This is because of the wording of P.50 Using a Psychic power is defined on P.50 as well, it details rolling the dice for a Psychic test. This is why PSA's are not cast once and last the whole game.

Still not convinced you haven't show me a RAW saying it ends. What the rules are saying is that a PSA counts as firing a weapon which I can do every turn on my shooting phase. So if I cast it I can now fire an assault 1 weapon, does not say it goes away for next turn.

But anyway I don't really care.

rigeld2 wrote:

jwolf wrote:By strict RAW, the power has no duration, which would make it last a time period of null, not forever - almost every other power has a duration specified (or is a PSA, which has it's own definition). Since I think we can agree that there would be no reason to include a power with no effect, the writers must have intended some duration. I'm willing to graciously have the power extend for the duration of the assault phase, but granting the power eternal operation based on Deathreaper's assertion that null = infinite isn't in any way reasonable.

I have permission to cast the power.
I cast the power.
I have permission to be STR10.
Where is the restriction of that permission? (ie a stated duration)

Related question: Might of Heroes says the Librarian (or other model in the same unit) gains "+d3 attacks in that Assault Phase." This also does not specify that the attacks go away at the end of that Assault Phase - would you argue that the recipient keeps those attacks for the rest of the game because there is no specified duration, only a specified time of receipt?

In the next assault phase, did you cast Might of Heroes in "that Assault Phase"?

Regarding SS - there is equally no permission to have ANY duration as infinite duration. In the absence of a defined duration, the duration is not infinite but undefined. These are not synonyms, and the burden of having a duration rests on the subject intending to exist (in this case, SS).

Regarding Might if Heroes (purely reading RAW) - On my T1 Assault Phase, I cast Might of Heroes on my Librarian. He gains +d3 attacks in that Assault Phase. Not during that Assault Phase, or until the end of that Assault Phase, just in that Assault Phase. So we have a statement of WHEN, but not HOW LONG. So he gains +d3 Attacks on my T1 Assault Phase. In your T1 Assault Phase, he casts MoH again, and gains +d3 attacks. Now he has gained +d3 attacks in two different Assault Phases, for a total of +2d3. Nothing tells us the effect of MoH expires, and there are Psychic Powers that have effects that exist after they are cast ( ex Gift of Chaos), even if another power is later cast or the power is cast again. By strict RAW with no assumptions other than your base assumption that "undefined duration equals infinite duration", MoH can be stacked to hell and back, ending up giving Mephiston +14d3 attacks at the bottom of turn 7, which might be fun to see.

Yes, in that assault phase he gains attacks.
In the next assault phase, is it "that" assault phase you originally cast the power?

And you're misunderstanding the way the rules work.
Once the power has permission to happen, you must find a restriction to stop it.
The psyker has Str10. Where is the permission to go back to normal?

In that assault phase is the duration, you only gain D3 attacks in the same turn you cast it, because you only gain the attacks in that assault phase.

Bacms wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
So we fire a ranged weapon, an the effect ends. This is because of the wording of P.50 Using a Psychic power is defined on P.50 as well, it details rolling the dice for a Psychic test. This is why PSA's are not cast once and last the whole game.

Still not convinced you haven't show me a RAW saying it ends. What the rules are saying is that a PSA counts as firing a weapon which I can do every turn on my shooting phase. So if I cast it I can now fire an assault 1 weapon, does not say it goes away for next turn.

But anyway I don't really care.

Using a Psychic power details rolling the dice for a Psychic test.

to Use a PSA you must use the Psychic Power that allows you to shoot as a weapon.

Using a PSA is defined as rolling the dice for a Psychic test, that is why you have to cast it every time.

jwolf wrote:And we're back to why even talking about rules on the Internet is a bad idea.

DeathReaper makes up a "truth", whole cloth, ignores rational discussion, finds what he believes is a loophole that matches up with his entirely RAW unsupported position, and now we're in the Fox News "what is accurate" argument:
One person with a crazy position and other rational people pointing out that it isn't supported anywhere by the rules. But some percentage of people will go with the crazy position, because DeathReaper speaks with conviction and the rational people admit to the inadequacies of the RAW.

Play however you like in your FLGS, DeathReaper. Don't cry to me when you can't play that nonsense anywhere else.

This.

For the sake of precedence, are there any psychic powers which last the whole game, and can we see their wording for comparison's sake?

Seriously, this is obviously not RAI, nor HAWPI, but is RAW.
Please understand the difference before posting further.

rigeld2 wrote:
And you're misunderstanding the way the rules work.
Once the power has permission to happen, you must find a restriction to stop it.
The psyker has Str10. Where is the permission to go back to normal?

I'm not misunderstanding how a permissive rule set works. Once a power has permission to work, it has to have a scope under which it works, undefined scope is not equivalent to unlimited scope. Your continued assertion that undefined is equivalent to unrestricted is unfounded and without merit - in short, you have no leg (or even convenient cane) to stand on.




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rigeld2 wrote:Seriously, this is RAW.
Please understand the difference before posting further.

Right back at you.

jwolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And you're misunderstanding the way the rules work.
Once the power has permission to happen, you must find a restriction to stop it.
The psyker has Str10. Where is the permission to go back to normal?

I'm not misunderstanding how a permissive rule set works. Once a power has permission to work, it has to have a scope under which it works, undefined scope is not equivalent to unlimited scope. Your continued assertion that undefined is equivalent to unrestricted is unfounded and without merit - in short, you have no leg (or even convenient cane) to stand on.

There's no scope requirement. You're asserting something that doesn't exist.
I'm not equating undefined to to unrestricted.
You're asserting that undefined is restricted with no rules support.
You've got to have a rule saying that psychic powers must have a duration for your assertion to be true. I don't know of one.

rigeld2 wrote:Seriously, this is RAW.
Please understand the difference before posting further.

Right back at you.

Thanks for editing my statement and taking it out of context. I should've added the word "discussion" but you probably wouldve edited it out too.

jwolf wrote:I'm not misunderstanding how a permissive rule set works. Once a power has permission to work, it has to have a scope under which it works, undefined scope is not equivalent to unlimited scope. Your continued assertion that undefined is equivalent to unrestricted is unfounded and without merit - in short, you have no leg (or even convenient cane) to stand on.

As for the underlined, Sanguine Sword DOES have a scope in which it works.

Sanguine Sword states:
"The power is used at the start of either players Assault phase. The Librarians close combat attacks are made at Strength 10"

The scope in which it works is whenever The Librarian makes his close combat attacks. The scope is defined.

I'm asserting that undefined is undefined. Undefined duration does not give permission to have any duration, which is generally equivalent to nonexistence. I'm further asserting that in order to have any usage in the game a psychic power has to have a duration - whether that is instantaneous, for a turn, or until the end of time, because events happen in time. Without a defined duration we're left guessing, and your guess isn't RAW, no matter how much you say it is.

You're welcome for my editing; normally I charge for that, but it's free for you today!

In the end, one of us will walk away and drop the discussion, because we agree that Sanguine Sword as infinite isn't how to play it or the intent of the rules. We're just arguing about RAW, and your assertion of infinite duration has no basis in RAW. Looking around Dakka, you seem to have a lot of patience for playing "no, I'm right," games, so we'll see how it plays out here.

Oh, hush DarkReaper. Can't you see I'm arguing pointlessly with rigeld2 now?

Actually, as I have proven, Sanguine Sword has a defined time when it works. (whenever The Librarian makes his close combat attacks).

You have provided no rules to support your side of the argument.

And it is not the ""no, I'm right," games" It is the 'This is what the RAW actually state' game.

No, I'm right. RAW supports nothing.

jwolf wrote:No, I'm right. RAW supports nothing.

Citation needed.

I have provided rules quotes and page numbers that support my position.

I have not seen any rules to support the contrary.

jwolf wrote:By strict RAW with no assumptions other than your base assumption that "undefined duration equals infinite duration", MoH can be stacked to hell and back, ending up giving Mephiston +14d3 attacks at the bottom of turn 7, which might be fun to see.

TIL, MoH is awesome ...

Jwolf, obvious troll is obvious. You can't stack MoH, it is cast at the start of an assault phase, in "that" assault phase the librarian gets +D3. If it said "the librarian gets +d3 attacks in combat." then you'd have a case.

Your reduction ad absurdum arguement isn't great.

No you haven't. I cite page 50 of the BRB and page 63 of the Blood Angels codex as evidence that my position is perfect and accurate. If by scope you claim that "when making his CC attacks" meets the test, then the Librarian is using the power when he makes those CC attacks, correct? P. 50 of the BRB states that a player can "use one psychic power per player turn" and "[t]o use a psychic power, the Psyker must pass a Psychic test," so when the Librarian uses his power (makes CC attacks) he has to pass a Psychic test. So the default duration, as defined in the BRB, is a "use," and "uses" can occur in each player turn.

I hate being serious, but there it is.

@ liturgies of blood - You mean anyone arguing rules they don't believe are right is a troll? Damn, guess we can fold up the whole shop here. You haven't provided any evidence that the +d3 attacks goes away, I have provided RAW that attacks are gained without any scope (infinite, according to the "other side"), and that powers can be in effect on models after they are no longer active (Gift of Chaos). Clever talking isn't refutation.

Death Reaper, it says "... close combat attacks..." with no quantifers. Without quantifers it must be referencing the previous sentance. That reference states you must use the power in "the" (meaning current) assault phase to gain the benifit.

There is no permission for the extension.

jwolf wrote:I'm asserting that undefined is undefined. Undefined duration does not give permission to have any duration, which is generally equivalent to nonexistence. I'm further asserting that in order to have any usage in the game a psychic power has to have a duration - whether that is instantaneous, for a turn, or until the end of time, because events happen in time. Without a defined duration we're left guessing, and your guess isn't RAW, no matter how much you say it is.

You have no rules basis for the assertion that psychic powers must have a duration.
Furthermore there's no guessing - with no stated duration, theres no duration. It just is.

Please cite rules. There are rules allowing the use of the power. Find the restriction in the rules.

You're welcome for my editing; normally I charge for that, but it's free for you today!

It'd be great if you don't do that to my comments in the future. Thanks.

Looking around Dakka, you seem to have a lot of patience for playing "no, I'm right," games, so we'll see how it plays out here.

So... Are you trolling me? Or just accusing me of being stubborn and wrong?

"The power is used at the start of either players Assault phase. The Librarians close combat attacks are made at Strength 10" (BA codex P.63)

He uses the power at the start of the assault phase. the power works whenever The Librarian makes his close combat attacks. As per the second part of the rule "The Librarians close combat attacks are made at Strength 10"

Has the power been cast? If yes move onto the next question, if no stop.

Is The Librarian making his close combat attacks? If yes then Str 10 if no then not Str 10

Using a psychic power, from BRB P.50, states that you roll a Psychic test etc. If you are in a subsequent turn you are using the effects of a previously cast power, you are not re-using the Psychic power. Subtle but important difference.

Any other rules to back your side up?

Yonush wrote:Death Reaper, it says "... close combat attacks..." with no quantifers. Without quantifers it must be referencing the previous sentance. That reference states you must use the power in "the" (meaning current) assault phase to gain the benifit.

There is no permission for the extension.

Had it been worded "close combat attacks in that assault phase" then you would be correct. Note: the power is two different sentences, One details when it is used, the other states the effects without restricting it to a certain duration.

As it stands if he is making CC attacks he gets the buff.

No you have conflated two things together and are not only misreading the rules but inventing them.

"when making his close combat attacks" does not limit when those attacks occur.

On uses, a use has no defined duration. The brb gives one limit that is only one power can be activated in a turn. You have added more in there then there actually is.