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Lockark wrote:

htj wrote:

Nvs wrote:Do you think they'll sell the old edition starter sets at a discount once the new edition comes out?

No. But you never know, we could be lucky this time.

I was at the GW Montreal store at the time of 5th ed release. The old starter sets were knocked down in price, and were doing another specail offer. If you brought your 4th ed rule book to show them, you got a discount on the 5th ed book.

Nice! They didn't do anything like that at my local store, unless I missed it.

Lockark wrote:

Pacific wrote:An interesting hypothesis, but with a couple of flaws:
- I learned 5th edition in half a game and about 30 minutes. If this was some radical new system with the depths of Infinity I could understand this, but we all know it won't be. The same could be accomplished by giving them the book to take home a couple of days before launch.
- A lot of GW managers are yes-men/sycophants, and indeed I believe one of the requirements these days for the job is that you can roll your eyes up into your head so only the whites are visible, but some are just pretending to be like this to keep their jobs. We would have had a leak by now.

Considering how many people in my area would accidental combine 5th ed and 4th ed together in my area? Some people have a hard time completely forgetting the old rules to relearn the new edition.

Still seems odd all the same.

I still see people using 3rd ed rules...

More often then not people that combine the rules dont own a rulebook and just "get by" on what their friends have taught them.

@Hulksmash - Then I am genuinely surprised that they are still afloat, because that seems crazy to me, on that basis the game is an illusion to drive Box sales.

Also what happens if the box is considered too expensive by average mother/father, when its cheaper to buy a console game for example, and those sales drop off.

If thats right it sounds like the company crashes and burns in a number of months?

Seems a crazy way to continue your future, also declining sales, closing stores, cost cuting to cover up those declining sales seems to say to me that its starting to get to that tipping point now.

Whats GW's plan if that avenue begins to dry up?


I just really struggle to believe that the figure is anywhere near 90% of their turnover, I do honestly think veterans spend more than GW gives them credit for, and have done for a long time.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Sorry clively, but thats just bad business.

Depends on your point of view.

If I have $500k worth of stock sitting in a warehouse ready to be shipped then you can bet that I'll wait until that stock is depleted before artificially devaluing it by releasing something that causes me to throw it away. All companies with any fiscal sense do this. To do otherwise would mean that your release starts off $500k in the hole, and your company valuation drops.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:They are more likely to tick folks off. Imagine Mother A's reaction when the lovely set she brought her son three weeks before is no longer any good.

The vast majority of the sales of the starter sets are one time deals. Mom/Dad buys the set, kids have enough models to work on it for awhile to play at home. It is usually a few months before they notice. For the ones that do, that's what the BRB is for...

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:GW are pretty much the only hobby related company that does this with their new editions. Everyone else has announced them months before, and then spend time building up anticipation to the release. With such a small market to play with, you need to be screaming out to make sure everyone is listening.

Hell look at Zombicide and Kickstarter, that company just raked in a ton of money and none of us are even getting any product for around another three to four months.

There's a reason here. First off, GW is a very established company with a sales pipeline. The companies you mentioned: Zombicide and Kickstarter are new on the block and don't have large amounts of cash tied up in existing stock. Therefore, doing a promotion months before the actual release makes sense, they need that preorder influx of capital in order to mass produce the product. Also, they don't have stores where a manager is going to tell that poor mom: don't buy now, wait a month..

Whereas for GW to start promoting a new release while still trying to sell the existing one, is a bad move. Long time gamers and new ones both will hold off on purchases. This has an immediate negative impact to the bottom line which is difficult to make up in the short term on sales of a new system.

I can absolutely guarantee that the day Zombicide has a decent amount of money tied up in warehouse stock is the day they hold off on a future release announcement.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:GW are just plain wrong in this, and in general their sliding sales and closing stores are sadly proof of this. If they honestly can't take the loss of a number of the old 40K sets, when they will be getting a cash injection from a new edition release then they have bigger problems than they are letting on.
Hell, they should just rip out the old plastics and sell them loose on their site till its clear. Recycle the old books and be done with it.

Their sliding sales is a direct result of other issues. 40k is priced as a premium product with only an average execution. First off, the pricing has put it out of range of a fair number of potential customers. This is okay as long as their execution in other areas is exemplary.

However, as we know, it hasn't been. The move to finecast has had serious on going quality issues that cost the company in terms of prestige amongst the hobbyists. Further a combination of a premium price and contradictory core rules has opened the door for a large number of competitors.

Getting back OT, these new competitors don't have the same financial restrictions GW has. To sum up, their size and longevity in the industry is exactly why they can't leak radical changes to the gaming system.

------------

Now, if I was running GW this is what I'd do. Number one, tighten up the core rules. They should be dead simple and well tested. Updates to the core should be rare. I might even consider releasing the core as a freebie download from the website.

Second, I'd restructure the army books such that they could build upon the core rules with new combinations while not conflicting with the core. This makes individual ownership of a larger number of army books much more important. In other words, the ONLY thing that should be in the core are those rules that EVERY single army must abide by. IE: troops move 6", roll 2D6 for moving through difficult terrain... Any "special" rules should be army specific. For example, drop skilled rider, FNP, etc from the core. This would actually give the army designers more freedom in how they work.

Third, I'd drop "finecast" as a material. I understand that for $20+/figure you need to have something that is low cost to product but still different enough from the normal plastic to try and justify the price. So, I'd switch to perhaps a different type of plastic (ABS?) or something that is more durable and easier to produce. Resin and the like requires too much QA.

I'm more thinking about other Hobby companies like Wizards and D&D, can't imagine them surprising 5th edition on folks out of the blue.
Although RPGs have been in a decline for a number of years now so maybe thats an unfair comparrison.

I got a weird feeling someone said years back console/PC gaming would be the death of Tabletop games. Maybe thats a little overly dramatic, but I am starting to wonder if they will cause lasting damage to the bigger companies that have based themselves on this in and out trade.

If I remember rightly most D&D folks only pick up a handful of books, so there is some merit to the connection to GW.


Regarding the rules set being taught to staff, seems a good idea from a company standpoint, so I'd say its a possible rumour. What we need is a staff member about to chuck it in for a new job give a final act of defiance.

Just so you know, I'm not saying GW's marketing isn't full of holes. Just simply that we'll know exactly when that next release is coming based on existing product stock levels.

Regarding Wizards, and D&D specifically, I think they've hit on the exact right marketing model. (http://geekout.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/09/wizards-of-the-coasts-announces-new-edition-of-dungeons-and-dragons/)

If you read that, you'll notice there isn't an expected release date for the next version. However, the thing that does come across is that there is going to be another release AND it will be based on player feedback.

GW would go a long ways towards reinvigorating the community by following that model.

There's training and 'training'. It could be that rather than send out rules books they send out an update to staff on what's changing. I doubt the phases are changing or the assault /wounds charts so it won't take anything new to teach new players. The rest is frills.

As for GW marketing, they don't need to tell anyone that 6th is coming because we all know it. Its not stopping people buying the new Necrons or Tyranids. Also I expect the same treatment as Fantasy 8th as in we get the big book first then the box later. During which time people may buy up the current starter set at a discount or whatever.

clively wrote:Just so you know, I'm not saying GW's marketing isn't full of holes. Just simply that we'll know exactly when that next release is coming based on existing product stock levels.

Regarding Wizards, and D&D specifically, I think they've hit on the exact right marketing model. (http://geekout.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/09/wizards-of-the-coasts-announces-new-edition-of-dungeons-and-dragons/)

If you read that, you'll notice there isn't an expected release date for the next version. However, the thing that does come across is that there is going to be another release AND it will be based on player feedback.

GW would go a long ways towards reinvigorating the community by following that model.

Aye, I'd agree with that.

On a side note, I'm not try to be antagonistic, its a honest.. what the feth reaction from me on this. It doesn't seem to make any sense in my mind.

More likely, if this seminar happened at all, the managers were instructed in how to peddle the current rulebook until the evening before 6th hits.

Now. .if only they could figure out how to get people to buy Mandrakes and Pyrovores they would be all-star salesmen

All of this wastefulness and secrecy can be directly tied to GW's ridiculous policies of: a) rewriting the rules drastically between editions (thus invalidating many models/builds in order to drive others); and b) wildly swinging the power of units between codices (again, to drive sales to underperformers and new kits while devaluing the previously good stuff that has already sold sufficiently well). GW would rather ride the pendulum swings back and forth rather than banking on consistent, steady sales of all units. Why? Because they don't care about the game at all; it's just a mechanism to drive sales of the models. Sadly for them, the days of being a prisoner to their sales are coming to an end with widespread resin casting, 3D printing, and quality third-party manufacturers. GW doesn't support tournaments anymore, so there's official no reason to buy their product unless you want to. You want a dumb move? There's one for you.

lord_blackfang wrote:More likely, if this seminar happened at all, the managers were instructed in how to peddle the current rulebook until the evening before 6th hits.

Curiously enough I went in an indy store on Monday and all of the AoBR boxes had been removed from the shelves.

lord_blackfang wrote:More likely, if this seminar happened at all, the managers were instructed in how to peddle the current rulebook until the evening before 6th hits.

The manager meeting did happen this week, the content of the meeting is yet to be known. Next meeting is in August so it is likely they got the word on 6th.

Interesting news there!

So, if something comes out of this, I'm sure we'll hear shortly.

Until then, off we go!

Gw doesn't suck at marketing. Proof is we are buying over priced plastic crack.

And as for video games, far from being the death of GW actualy helped them from what i gathered.
Parents when given the choince to buy models or a video game will often opt for the models, because its actualy constructive, and gets there child off the screen for a while.

mayfist wrote:Parents when given the choince to buy models or a video game will often opt for the models, because its actualy constructive, and gets there child off the screen for a while.

I'll disagree. $60 for Call of Duty goes a lot farther than $60 on models.

He's not saying it goes farther; he's saying that it gets kids away from the TV and has them 'creating' something. I would much rather have my kid build something than play a video game.

Fair enough point, but for some bang for the buck is a factor. I wasn't able to convince my parents to buy into the GW hobby.

reps0l wrote:

mayfist wrote:Parents when given the choince to buy models or a video game will often opt for the models, because its actualy constructive, and gets there child off the screen for a while.

I'll disagree. $60 for Call of Duty goes a lot farther than $60 on models.

Not really. Models last a lifetime.

This hobby is vastly cheaper than video games in the dollar per unit time of enjoyment ratio.

Agreed with above, when I first tried to get into the game, I had to fight tooth and nail for the Macragge set, and that was back when it was roughly $50 online. Now, with a $100 starter set, that if you do get really interested in the game you need at least another 2-300, more if you don't like the starter armies, I don't see many parents going for it.

imho, the best market to go for in tabletop gaming is the High School crowd. They are old enough to keep a steady job, but young enough that they don't need to worry about blowing the cash on models

Aye, we know the models could last a lifetime and its a great alterntive to videogames, but many of the parents I know its just something else that will get played with for a bit and then forgotten, or busted for what is a very high entry cost.

I also find it telling that on my handful of journeys into my local GW in the past few years, twice I have been there I've seen parents come in with their kids, the kids saying wow cool.. the parent looks at the price tag and then ushers the kiddie away.
Maybe thats dumb luck on my part for being there twice, but I'm guessing that happens more than the couple of times I've seen it.

dajobe wrote:yeah, the guy keeps talking about it on Facebook. He has been down there like 3 times in the last month, it actually seems feasible that they are doing this.

Be a first time for it. 3rd, 4th, 5th, nothing like that happened. Best staff or Outriders ever got was a pre-release copy (mostly to have it painted and ready for demos) and if there happened to be a Games Day pre-release, maybe a discussion of it there.

reps0l wrote:

mayfist wrote:Parents when given the choince to buy models or a video game will often opt for the models, because its actualy constructive, and gets there child off the screen for a while.

I'll disagree. $60 for Call of Duty goes a lot farther than $60 on models.

Wrong.

-Models last forever. CoD becomes obsolete as soon as the next installment comes out.

-You can create something with the models.

-CoD is crap.

I'd rather have $60 worth of models, than a boring $60 military shooter that becomes useless as soon as the servers are abandoned.

A certain phrase springs to mind, something to do with apples and oranges?

The 'I can do this much for x amount of money' thing has been done to death, and is ultimately useless in working out whether something or not is worth the money. Really I think the only comparisons worth making are to those which provide a similar function or are within the same industry - so, £50 or however much spent on miniatures, paints, board games or whatever other 'creative' exercises which can exercise various parts of your grey matter.

Gw doesn't suck at marketing. Proof is we are buying over priced plastic crack.

You could argue that they would make that much more if they actually did some marketing? In fact, the basis of the entire global market-based economy would confirm that this would be the case. The releases of various computer games, even the Ultramarines movie, represented a massive failure of marketing opportunities that, had they been submitted by a 1st year business student, would have resulted in an F grade and an admonishment by the tutor . Every single copy of Space Marine should have contained some kind of promotional material - a free painting workshop, even a free mini, to try and connect buyers back to the store by using the strong product identity. That took me 10 seconds of thought, I'm sure if they spent even a quarter the amount of time on actually trying to pull in fresh blood as their legal department does crushing guys who make 3rd party parts from their garage then they could come up with some even better ideas!

Rick Priestly said that the company simply doesn't recognise that it has any competitors within the marketplace. Not to be a pessimist/doom sayer, but the parallels to the British car industry (before it nose-dived towards oblivion) are alarming.

Just out of curiosity, who actually write the rule book? is it assigned to a single person liek a new codex? is there a separate team entirely that does it? Or do all the game designers/codex writers have input on it?

Probably Ward.

Oh dear......

Praxiss wrote:Oh dear......

Hey, you never know. It could be part of a master plan that will suddenly balance things out.

Also, I could win the lottery. I don't play, but hey, stranger things have happened at sea.

ph34r wrote:If GW managers were trained in 6th ed wouldn't we have some sort of leak by now?

They must have some great pulmbers working for GW!

Praxiss wrote:Just out of curiosity, who actually write the rule book? is it assigned to a single person liek a new codex? is there a separate team entirely that does it? Or do all the game designers/codex writers have input on it?

generally its several writers that do the core rules.......