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The Imperium of Man can never fall as long as it is still defended by men willing to lay down theirs lives for the survival of the Human race and the honor to serve He who sits on the Golden Throne.

**off topic**
I'm Anglo-Norman for what it counts and my brother is too, but he is the laziest I've ever met.

Always hope that your foe is willing to lay down his life for his cause.

If this is the case both you and he have the same aim in mind...

Ascalam wrote:Always hope that your foe is willing to lay down his life for his cause.

If this is the case both you and he have the same aim in mind...

But alas the Soldiers of Cadia are not allowed such a luxary

Ain't plotarmour awesome

Some illicit laying down of life does seem to happen against orders though

The Commisars might wan to look into that

Ascalam wrote:Ain't plotarmour awesome

Some illicit laying down of life does seem to happen against orders though

The Commisars might wan to look into that

I was about to say this.

Massive, enormously thick plot armor.

Hey if you think about isn't the IoM facing far greater threats than before? Lets compare the current timeline to say pre-HH. We all know or should know the preHH setting. So what's different now threatwise than then.

Aren't tyranids fairly newish? Didn't Leviathan show up till like M38?

The tau are definitely new only being around 5k years old. Ohhh and don't tell me the tau are pushovers. GW has invested to much money and I'm preety sure is making money with the Tau so I'm sure there here to stay. Saying that the tau could easily be defeated and written off.it is like saying that the space marines can be written off because of there small numbers and will cesase to exist in a couple thousand years.

Necrons with the new fluff are a new threat that didn't exist at this level pre heresy

Eldar depending on when the fall occured I've heard around 34M are different now. If it did happen that early than the eldar the Emperor was facing was the poor fresh remnants of the fall.

So in a way now in the 41M with no emperor or primarchs and larger threats isn't the IoM actually destined to lose. Ofcourse I'm speaking theoretically we all know it wont happen in reality. Hope and sacrifice only take you so far before reality catches up

How does humanity win? Simple, donate your criminals, traitors, heretics and attractive women to the landlords of the galaxy as rent, and we'll let you stay, for now.

You really think that if GW one day decide to finally end 40k they will let the Imeprium fall and Mankind get destroyed?

This is entirely missing the point of the Warhammer and 40k universe. Chaos and entropy eventually win. It's inevitable. To some extent they've already won in that humanity only survives in the grip of the worst kind of genocidal and hateful facism. Just about everything good about being human has already been lost for the vast majority (99.999999999999999999999999%) of humans.

The few places where justice and decency survive are out of the way enclaves as likely to be wiped out by other humans for being heretical as they are by inimical aliens or heinous daemonic forces. Or in idealised descriptions by a few writers about what certain Space Marines or the Tau (perhaps) allow in the small zones they control, which can realistically be looked at as exceptions to the rule, or just someone choosing to go off script.

The whole foundational concept behind WH and 40k is a particular pessimistic British view of the late 20th century (especially Britain under Thatcher, for the guys writing in the 80s) and of an insanely over the top dystopian future based on frustrated writers' visions of it. George Orwell and Michael Moorcock and 2000AD comic books, where Judge Dredd executes perps in the street at his own discretion. Orwell is the more realistic end, Moorcock the fantastic one, where the hero is ultimately doomed to be slain and have his soul eaten by the very power(s) he relies upon. Plus some dark humor especially from the 2000AD end.

Sure, GW will not actually choose to end 40k. They're a company selling a product and they're not going to destroy the product. But the nature of the setting has always been that doom is unavoidable. It's dystopian fiction.

Even if the Imperial government collapses under its own weight, the Imperial Guard and Navy will continue to run the galaxy, just by sectors instead of a whole. Most likely, a supreme commander like Creed would step up and take charge of everything (except the 500 worlds of smurfs).

Really, the only thing that could take down the IoM at this point would be another Heresy/Civil War, it has the power to stand against everything else.

Um, no it doesn't

Which is why it's losing ground and gettingn it's ass heroically kicked

The IOM is shrinking, not static.

Ascalam wrote:Um, no it doesn't

Which is why it's losing ground and gettingn it's ass heroically kicked

The IOM is shrinking, not static.

Shrinking says who?

Last time I checked, stasis fields allow no change and the background is pretty much freezed...

But seriously, most realms are shrinking over time.
- Eldar managed to shrink their realm at turbo mode...
- Old ones managed to shrink so hard, nobody remembers them in M41..
- Necrons shrank their realm maybe just a little, some worlds will not return into the fold
- Tyranids are nomadic
- Chaos is to chaotic to know who is shrinking actually
- Humans had a single planet, moved out to the stars ( and we don't know how far ), managed to set the Galaxy on fire, so basically the size of the zone under human influence isn't known and all we got is that the IoM is " a million worlds" . Was it two millions? Is it 999.999 now?
Could i please get a point of referance where you spot this 'shrinking' ?

Ascalam wrote:Um, no it doesn't

Which is why it's losing ground and gettingn it's ass heroically kicked

The IOM is shrinking, not static.

The IoM has a stated "million worlds". Even with the described battles/wars/invasions/etc that claim tens/dozens/hundreds of worlds, they are barely scratching at the IoM. Even if they lost a hundred worlds PER DAY, every day, for a year, in that year the IoM would only lose 4% of its total territory. And thats if there are only a million worlds. Its estimated that the milky way has 10 billion inhabitable worlds, its very likely that most of those were colonised during the pre-Long Night golden age, and they simply haven't been rediscovered yet. And that doesn't include all the manufactured habitats, starforts, terraformed worlds, planets colonized despite being unsuited for human life, etc.

Really, the Eldar and Dark Eldar are no threat, as neither has the manpower (eldarpower?) to claim significant territory from the IoM. They also do not have the military strength to stand up to the IoM in a full war.

The Tau could grow to be a threat, but are not much more than a nuisance atm, with controlled territory roughly equal to the Ultramarines Sector. They also are in prime position to be removed from the playing field by the Tyranids. They still exist because the IoM hasn't really turned is gaze upon them, having more important things to deal with (like laundry and grocery lists).

The Necrons are a threat, but are still scattered and uncoordinated. The IoM is also developing tactics for dealing with them, usually orbital bombardment before a tomb world fully awakens. Plus, given the business between the BA and Necrons, there is a potential for the Necrons to simply leave the galaxy....after all, there are a couple empty galaxies nearby that the 'Nids have finished with. Also, 'Crons could be dealt with by luring 'Nid fleets to the tomb worlds.

The Orks are a threat, but a manageable one, as the IoM has been dealing with them for so long they are practically friendly neighbors. In the grand scheme of the 'verse, the Orks are easily pushed back. Also, good 'Nid bait.

Chaos is arguably the greatest threat, due to its influence across the entire galaxy. They also have the advantage of Chaos Marines, and growing stronger as more time passes by default. Also, everything is going Just As Planned.....

Tyranids are the other contenders for the throne of greatest threat. They have the most forces by far, and reasonable tactical knowledge, but made the mistake of coming in in seperate hive fleets. The IoM now has tactics for slowing their advance, and dealing with hive fleets as they appear, though it takes a massive gathering of force to do it. Even exterminating a thousand worlds to stop a single hive fleet is a solid victory for the IoM, as the biomatter is no longer being absorbed by the host, thereby reducing the total force of the 'Nids.

So why is the current era 'the time of ending?'

'The space marines and imperial guard are at war as never before, defending humanity from threats within, without and beyond. Tnis is Humanity's darkest hour' .. Not ringing a bell?

'only be force of arms and unnumbered daily acts of desperate valour is rthe imperium held together' no?

Even the main rulebook calls the IOM 'a dminishing empire'

'Yet the Emperor's light grows dim, and his domain dwindles, planet by planet and system by system... There is no peace, no respite, no hope of victory. There is only war' Pretty much the tagline for the game.



They are losing slowly, but they are losing. The timescale for 40K is huge.

The undiscovered worlds aren't IOM, so lets leave them out of this, as they could all hypothetically have been eaten by nids, subjugated by Orks etc also. The starforts etc are usually with a system, and fall when it does.

We'll assume a million worlds, as that's what we're told the IOM has.

If we assume one planet lost a day (and it's likely more) across the IOM it would take 2739.72 yeasrs to be completely eaten away, assuming that all those worlds are totally self sufficient. That's not that long, by 40K standards.

We have characters in the game that are far older than that. A lot of the IOM tech currently in use is..

Now assume that some of these worlds are more critical than others, like say Cadia or Ultramar. If those fall, they take a lot of others with them at the same time.

Sure it would take a while, but in the end the IOM is doomed, within a couple of millenia most likely, and is heroically trying it's best to maintain the status quo, and failing.

Ascalam wrote:So why is the current era 'the time of ending?'

It is time of ending alright - for Imperial enemies that is.
Everybody just mixed the meaning of word.

Razgryz wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Um, no it doesn't

Which is why it's losing ground and gettingn it's ass heroically kicked

The IOM is shrinking, not static.

The IoM has a stated "million worlds". Even with the described battles/wars/invasions/etc that claim tens/dozens/hundreds of worlds, they are barely scratching at the IoM. Even if they lost a hundred worlds PER DAY, every day, for a year, in that year the IoM would only lose 4% of its total territory. And thats if there are only a million worlds. Its estimated that the milky way has 10 billion inhabitable worlds, its very likely that most of those were colonised during the pre-Long Night golden age, and they simply haven't been rediscovered yet. And that doesn't include all the manufactured habitats, starforts, terraformed worlds, planets colonized despite being unsuited for human life, etc.

Really, the Eldar and Dark Eldar are no threat, as neither has the manpower (eldarpower?) to claim significant territory from the IoM. They also do not have the military strength to stand up to the IoM in a full war.

The Tau could grow to be a threat, but are not much more than a nuisance atm, with controlled territory roughly equal to the Ultramarines Sector. They also are in prime position to be removed from the playing field by the Tyranids. They still exist because the IoM hasn't really turned is gaze upon them, having more important things to deal with (like laundry and grocery lists).

The Necrons are a threat, but are still scattered and uncoordinated. The IoM is also developing tactics for dealing with them, usually orbital bombardment before a tomb world fully awakens. Plus, given the business between the BA and Necrons, there is a potential for the Necrons to simply leave the galaxy....after all, there are a couple empty galaxies nearby that the 'Nids have finished with. Also, 'Crons could be dealt with by luring 'Nid fleets to the tomb worlds.

The Orks are a threat, but a manageable one, as the IoM has been dealing with them for so long they are practically friendly neighbors. In the grand scheme of the 'verse, the Orks are easily pushed back. Also, good 'Nid bait.

Chaos is arguably the greatest threat, due to its influence across the entire galaxy. They also have the advantage of Chaos Marines, and growing stronger as more time passes by default. Also, everything is going Just As Planned.....

Tyranids are the other contenders for the throne of greatest threat. They have the most forces by far, and reasonable tactical knowledge, but made the mistake of coming in in seperate hive fleets. The IoM now has tactics for slowing their advance, and dealing with hive fleets as they appear, though it takes a massive gathering of force to do it. Even exterminating a thousand worlds to stop a single hive fleet is a solid victory for the IoM, as the biomatter is no longer being absorbed by the host, thereby reducing the total force of the 'Nids.

2 Things

1) the million worlds part is meant in a poetical way.

2)the number of orks is around as high as the amount of tyranids its even suspected that they have infested planets from other galaxies.

Also the DE have way more numbers that you seem to think The CWE are low on bodies, but the DE have them aplenty.

You only ever see a tiny tiny fraction of them going raiding, and never the whole of Commoragh at once. I'd say that every Kabal, Cult and Coven together could put on one hell of a webway-delivered lightshow if they felt like it, but that's not really their style. Direct confrontation is for chumps

There's no need to stand up to the IOM in face-on war when you can just appear at will, feth them up and go home laughing, anywhere you choose to pop out.

Some places are a bad idea to do so, but doesn't mean they couldn't if they wanted to (like in Terra orbit for example).

They could, but it would be suicide unless they took a LOT of guys and ships, and alphastruck the defenses before they could respond. - if you want to discuss the likelyhood of this scenario i'd be happy to in another thread, to avoid roaming OT too much).

I'm on the fence, sure there are a lot of human's in the galaxy, and with their combined might they can definitely take on the other forces of the galaxy with a significant change of exterminating all of them. The problem is, anything short of the Emperor uniting them all together will force the Imperium on a agonizingly slow decline to extinction. Even a single person cannot unite the Imperium long enough to do battle with every force in the galaxy, including humanity itself. The Age of Apostasy was a clear example of this and it would only mean another show of humanity's ever present and greatest weakness, it's own corruption, that will eventually be its downfall unless the Emperor returns to save them.

The only person other then the Emperor was Lord Macharicus , he was the only one to unite the imperium for the time he was alive . Perhaps Creed will unite the Guard in the Cadian Sector ?

Kasrkin229 wrote:The only person other then the Emperor was Lord Macharicus , he was the only one to unite the imperium for the time he was alive . Perhaps Creed will unite the Guard in the Cadian Sector ?

Cadia is too busy fighting the Traitor Legions to even think.

Kasrkin229 wrote:The only person other then the Emperor was Lord Macharicus , he was the only one to unite the imperium for the time he was alive . Perhaps Creed will unite the Guard in the Cadian Sector ?

He didn't unite the whole Imperium, he led a fantastically successful campaign into the far reaches of space. Sure, he had the support of billions of people, but he wasn't even named a High Lord of Terra.

Goge Vandire was one of the only two "normal" people to ever command the entire Imperium at one time. The other was Sebastian Thor up until shortly after his crusade defeated Vandire, and then he stepped down and became Ecclesiarch. (the Imperium's pope)

DemetriDominov wrote:

Kasrkin229 wrote:The only person other then the Emperor was Lord Macharicus , he was the only one to unite the imperium for the time he was alive . Perhaps Creed will unite the Guard in the Cadian Sector ?

He didn't unite the whole Imperium, he led a fantastically successful campaign into the far reaches of space. Sure, he had the support of billions of people, but he wasn't even named a High Lord of Terra.

Goge Vandire was one of the only two "normal" people to ever command the entire Imperium at one time. The other was Sebastian Thor up until shortly after his crusade defeated Vandire, and then he stepped down and became Ecclesiarch. (the Imperium's pope)

I was saying that it was Macharius who did very well and would have done better had he not been cut off from supplies . I am commenting that simpley if Creed and Yarrick sided together you would have a Massive Fighting force and production capacity

Kasrkin229 wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:

Kasrkin229 wrote:The only person other then the Emperor was Lord Macharicus , he was the only one to unite the imperium for the time he was alive . Perhaps Creed will unite the Guard in the Cadian Sector ?

He didn't unite the whole Imperium, he led a fantastically successful campaign into the far reaches of space. Sure, he had the support of billions of people, but he wasn't even named a High Lord of Terra.

Goge Vandire was one of the only two "normal" people to ever command the entire Imperium at one time. The other was Sebastian Thor up until shortly after his crusade defeated Vandire, and then he stepped down and became Ecclesiarch. (the Imperium's pope)

I was saying that it was Macharius who did very well and would have done better had he not been cut off from supplies . I am commenting that simpley if Creed and Yarrick sided together you would have a Massive Fighting force and production capacity

Ah, sorry, I didn't get impression from what you said. I'd like to add a brutally sarcastic remark about telepathy not going through computers very effectively but it's really not that funny lol.

Ahh well i didn't mean for it to sound in that manner , but simpley for the Imperium to win the Two Greatest (living ) commanders of the Guard would have to Unit their Armies ( Cadian and Armeggedon ) but even still that wouldn't be enough , considerabley ALL of the Guard Regiments would have to Withdraw and Redeploy under the Head of One Supreme Commander , not the highlords of Terra because they sit in there damn ACed chairs doing nothing but a commander like Yarrack or Creed

salamander117 wrote:I want to point out for that one guy that "the good ol' USA" was practically founded on racism and genocide which should not be bragged about

Don't get me wrong i love being an american but the clear fact is humans are awful creatures who don't give a darn if it doesn't effect them

That's why we always win

Oh, definitely! America's founding was just as bloody and nasty as anyone's.

That was really more a flavor-phrase. The point I was making was that the US is NOT an Anglo-Saxon nation, hasn't been since its inception as an independent nation, and most likely never will be.

OT, I think I very much agree with the entire downsizing strategy. If the Imperium was willing to consolidate its forces backwards, it would find itself on at least slightly more even terms with its enemies. As things are, the IoM wins its battles depending on when reinforcements get there. Until they can start winning with what they have on-site, or at least lasting a helluva lot longer, they're going to be fighting a losing battle.

Heres the biggest advantage the IoM has over all other races. The IoM has Saints. Embodiments of the Emperors will given form. True holy avengers. The entire business of the Emperor not being a god gets thrown out the window when you realize that praying to him actually works against his enemies.

Personally, I think the "Great Awakening" of the late M41 was the Emperor having a wet dream, and he's about to wake up. Which would be an awesome development, as it is not an instant win for the IoM but would take the current amount of warfare to a new level.


http://www.scholaprogenium.com/timeline.html

Assuming that they aren't just drawing on the warp in the belief that he's granting them the power, becoming Big E's daemon princes... but that's another can of worms I've seen both sides argued, and i'm not overly fussed either way.

E is a powerful warp entity. Gods are too. It's entirely possible he is one, by that standard. The dividing line gets a mite fuzzy in this setting, as they don't require deities to be omnipotent, omnisentient and omniscient to be gods

If he did wake up he's likely want a few words with his peeps, as they've basically taken a leak on his dream for 10,000 years

admiral9 wrote:




2 Things

1) the million worlds part is meant in a poetical way.

2)the number of orks is around as high as the amount of tyranids its even suspected that they have infested planets from other galaxies.

1) million worlds is found in codex necron too. Poesy for space robots?

Seriously, the 'million' worlds part is consistantly used by GW. Thus its unlikely they change that.

2) The number of orks and nids is unknown. IIRC there was never a thread with a consent on those numbers.

There is no reason to use hard numbers because the clever course is to use orkz like the orks in fantasy and the nids are the threat lurking in the dark ( void ). So both are numberless or just enough to keep the local opponents busy. Its all up to the storyline told.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

OT, I think I very much agree with the entire downsizing strategy. If the Imperium was willing to consolidate its forces backwards, it would find itself on at least slightly more even terms with its enemies. As things are, the IoM wins its battles depending on when reinforcements get there. Until they can start winning with what they have on-site, or at least lasting a helluva lot longer, they're going to be fighting a losing battle.

Why downsizing?
The IoM is spread across the Galaxy, so where do you "fall back" ? To take a line back if it is endangered to be broken and units cut off is a valid tactic on a surface of a planet with lines drawn. But in space and 3-D ?
The terms with its enemys aren't uneven. The Imperium reacts slowly thanks to the bureacracy, but those bean counters are not cared for by downsizing. You make it worse. Now, more of them got the spare time to ruin someones life...
The IoM doesn't have to start winning. They do already. And got the reinforcement capabilities to keep on when others have to run away.
So no, they don't need to downsize to have a chance.

They do have to start winning, as they are currently losing- see the quotes above in my previous post.

As to downsizing, they could also downsize the bean-counters, and maybe even put something more efficient in their place

Downscaling the empire in 3d isn't that hard either- pull forces from disputed outlying zones into positions of established strength, and fortify those. They don't have to hold ever inch of a globe of space around Terra, but right now they are being extremely inefficient and wasteful with the resources they have, and attempting to hold a far bigger volume of space than they are actually capable of controlling.

Could you please link up some info on the standing reinforcements they have, just waiting around? I was under the impression that the IOM is in a desperate, constant struggle for bare survival, given that's what the fluff in the rulebook states.

There are reinforcements constantly being levied, true enough, and massive numbers of them at that, but the troops being killed is that number and more, from what i've read, otherwise the IOM wouldn't be in the hole it's in.


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The Newcrons might just write you a poem, these days :(

I liked them better when they were murderous, silent killers..

(or it could just be Ward being lazy and using the same 'million worlds' statement as the rulebook )

Ascalam wrote:They do have to start winning, as they are currently losing- see the quotes above in my previous post.

As to downsizing, they could also downsize the bean-counters, and maybe even put something more efficient in their place

Downscaling the empire in 3d isn't that hard either- pull forces from disputed outlying zones into positions of established strength, and fortify those. They don't have to hold ever inch of a globe of space around Terra, but right now they are being extremely inefficient and wasteful with the resources they have, and attempting to hold a far bigger volume of space than they are actually capable of controlling.

Could you please link up some info on the standing reinforcements they have, just waiting around? I was under the impression that the IOM is in a desperate, constant struggle for bare survival, given that's what the fluff in the rulebook states.

There are reinforcements constantly being levied, true enough, and massive numbers of them at that, but the troops being killed is that number and more, from what i've read, otherwise the IOM wouldn't be in the hole it's in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Newcrons might just write you a poem, these days :(

I liked them better when they were murderous, silent killers..

(or it could just be Ward being lazy and using the same 'million worlds' statement as the rulebook )

- Who wants to score wins, reads codices..
- who dares to oppose the bean counters?
- the standing reinforcements aren't standing as they just recrut more "on the fly" . Pretty established and there were never too few recruts.
The BRB has a map and the codex has billions of regiments. Combine that with the rest of the imperial forces and theme of the IG alone would clearly leave no doubts. Casualty rates which 'lesser' forces couldn't survive are acceptable for the IG if you look up their campaigns.
Acceptable is, what isn't undoing a force and achieves the missions goal. In this the IoM is the only part of the forces of order to take that course ( Eldar and Tau too small, necrons too sleepy yet ) and live. So guess where the background will go:
a) crons awake fully and join the Humans, Eldar and Tau , adding another million of worlds to support the fight.
b) GW still runs with the "full circle" from 3rd ed and sees to a undoing of the Humans. Invested as they are in the current main actor of their storyline I'd not put money on that.
c) someone at GW HQ realizes how many chances the current authors have missed ( war poets for example as necron overlords...) and 7th ed has the sub-title " the Emperor strikes back" where Big E and his pale faced, blue faced and silvery faced vassals apply bug spray, fungizid and tons of exorcism to cleanse the Galaxy of disorder.

All hail the mighty God-Emporer, oppressor of pansy space elfs, re-educator of the fish people and new triarch of the space undead. Slayer of orks, squasher of bugs and Anathema to chaos. How can we not win? Our Space Emporer is more awesome than space popes and even got his own thread where we can ask him, right here at Dakka.

He who likes IOM propaganda that only mentions the wins, reads SM codexes and the notoriously IOM-obsessed BL

He who wants to see the SM losses reads non-tyranid xeno codexes (propaganda )

The setting book (the more unbiased account) still has the IOM losing. You can win a bunch of battles and still lose the war The IOM could probably take any of the factions in a fair fight, but it can't take all lof them, plus internal strife/mutation, which is why it's on the wane.

If there were a sufficient supply of recruits, then they wouldn't have to abandon system after system, being driven back. The warzones would all be stalemates or IOM wins, which they aren't. You don't need a struggle for survival and daily acts of desperate heroism if you're winning


Believe me, my BT would love to see the IOM have a resurgence, and it may yet be on the cards, but as it stands at present the IOM is fading, slowly and heroically, which gives ample scope for my BT to be heroes. This is deliberately written into the setting so that humanity can BE the heroic ones, valiantly fighting against overwhelming odds (rather than being macho poseurs in power armour, curbstomping all opposition like the GK I liked them better as heroes dammit !! )




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a) crons awake fully and join the Humans, Eldar and Tau , adding another million of worlds to support the fight.

Why? The IOM has already tried to exterminate all three races. They aren't exactly friends, and this isn't LOTR or BAB 5 where all other races auto-join humanity just because..

b) GW still runs with the "full circle" from 3rd ed and sees to a undoing of the Humans. Invested as they are in the current main actor of their storyline I'd not put money on that.

They'll just do what they have since RT.. Humanity is doomed and on the wane, fighting heroically against it's tragic fate...


c) someone at GW HQ realizes how many chances the current authors have missed ( war poets for example as necron overlords...) and 7th ed has the sub-title " the Emperor strikes back" where Big E and his pale faced, blue faced and silvery faced vassals apply bug spray, fungizid and tons of exorcism to cleanse the Galaxy of disorder.

Fun though it might be, they'd lose half their business if they did, and this would become Marinehammer 41K in truth, with no antagonistic xenos to fight. Just as lethal to their setting as allowing the xenos to destroy the IOM, so never likely to happen. Every battle would be 'maneuvers'' or 'training exercises' and that would be dull as hell. It's already that way at most games, as everyone plays SM
SM need xenos to make them look good, after all. SM vs SM is a case of 'I shoot you with my bolter, it bounces off. Your turn.... '