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If they landed in the Australian outback, I'd just let them die of thirst.

Or invite them to a barbie. It's really a bit of a toss-up.

I just replied to the main post

Ratius wrote:The whole sniper counter thing Im not sure about.
No clue how good RL snipers on but you're talking about hitting a tiny area on a beast that is moving over ground at what - 30mph? (humans can run at about 20mph?) in a constantly shifting battle, amongst terrain and potentially in a night fight scenario?

The Marines too are going to target those snipers ASAP.

Any info on RL bolter ranges?

Bolter range? I am 100% sure that a bolter does not have the range of a Cheytac Intervention or Barrett .50 cal rifle. You can't target something you can't see. Marines are not known for being stealthy, whereas SpecOps soldiers spend their lives being as stealthy and invisible as possible. Oh, and yes, a proper sniper can hit pretty much anything. A target moving at 30mph wouldn't be the easiest shot in the world, but considering how large a Space Marine is, it wouldn't be all that hard either.

Zookie wrote:

McNinja wrote:Really? This thread again? Are we going to have to go back and forth attempting to debate how strong Power Armor is?

We need a single A-10 Warthog in the air, and the SM are gone.

or a Sniper team with a .50 cal. The Heavy Stubber is the equivalent of a .50 caliber heavy machine gun. Once the ceramite shell cracks, the marines are good as dead. Well trained marksmen (like anyone from a SWAT sniper to a SEAL) would be able to pick out weak spots. Remember, this is real life, not models with a BS value.

or some 40mm grenade launchers.

But Space Marines are not some just some fools who would wander around waiting to be bombed. If they set up a base of operations in a remote area with good cover we would never find them by air. An A-10 cannot shoot what it can't find (With the amount of experience and training that Space Marines have I think it is doubtful we would be able to pull off an ambush or find them unprepared). Of course they would eventually lose, but we would have to send in ground forces to find them and I think it is reasonable to suspect that a single tac squad could cause hundreds if not thousands of a casualties before it was taken out.

If they happen to land in Arizona/Nevada/New Mexico, they're pretty much boned from the get go. Do you know how many military testing and training facilities are in the southwest of the US? Lots. Unless the SM happen to land in Pheonix or Las Vegas, they military wouldn't hesitate to blow a hostile alien presence out of the desert. Hell, if they were to simply land in the Southern US, they would be facerolled. Do you have any idea how many people have guns in the south? I don't mean guns like pistols and revolvers. I mean people and businesses who have their Class III licenses and own and operate explosives and fully automatic weapons. Hint: a bunch. The show Sons of Guns should give you a clear picture of just one gunsmithing company in Louisiana and what they can fabricate. We also have a National Guard in the US. We also have sonic weaponry and lasers.

This goes doubly if the SMs land in the middle east. I very highly doubt they would be given leeway in an area so grounded in religious dogma (and so heavily armed). The second the SM try to claim the area for their God-Emperor, they will receive a dozen RPGs to the face, along with a host of pissed off Muslims firing their AK-47s wildly at them.

If they happen to set up a HQ in somewhere like the Amazon Rainforest, we could just the the wildlife and various diseases get them. Unhelmeted sergeants, meet bullet ants. Though it would be interesting what would happen if mosquitos got to the Space Marines... after sucking their blood, would they die? Do the Space Marines have diseases that the mosquitos would spread? That's a whole 'nother can of worms that could potentially be very dangerous for us.

winnertakesall wrote:Send wave after wave of troops at them until they exhaust their ammunition. Send in more troops to finish them off.

Yeah because that's totally how our military works.

Bolter range? I am 100% sure that a bolter does not have the range of a Cheytac Intervention or Barrett .50 cal rifle. You can't target something you can't see. Marines are not known for being stealthy, whereas SpecOps soldiers spend their lives being as stealthy and invisible as possible. Oh, and yes, a proper sniper can hit pretty much anything. A target moving at 30mph wouldn't be the easiest shot in the world, but considering how large a Space Marine is, it wouldn't be all that hard either.

Agreed on the bolter range, it was just a question.

I disagree however that the Marines wouldnt be able to see the snipers, I'd be pretty shocked if the Marines didnt have body heat signaturesensing in their optics or infra red or something that would allow them to see the snipers.

Agreed on hitting the marine but hitting them in that vitally sensitive area as they duck and weave and use cover maybe at night? Dunno know about that for sure.

Ratius wrote:

Bolter range? I am 100% sure that a bolter does not have the range of a Cheytac Intervention or Barrett .50 cal rifle. You can't target something you can't see. Marines are not known for being stealthy, whereas SpecOps soldiers spend their lives being as stealthy and invisible as possible. Oh, and yes, a proper sniper can hit pretty much anything. A target moving at 30mph wouldn't be the easiest shot in the world, but considering how large a Space Marine is, it wouldn't be all that hard either.

Agreed on the bolter range, it was just a question.

I disagree however that the Marines wouldnt be able to see the snipers, I'd be pretty shocked if the Marines didnt have body heat signaturesensing in their optics or infra red or something that would allow them to see the snipers.

Agreed on hitting the marine but hitting them in that vitally sensitive area as they duck and weave and use cover maybe at night? Dunno know about that for sure.

Sorry if I came off a bit harsh

It would boil down to which team is better: the SM or the SpecOps team? I also doubt that any Sniper would attempt to further engage the SMs after their presence has been known. Detecting heat signatures by satellite would tell us where they are setting up camp, and we would probably send a team in to ask them what's up (especially if they were to land in Europe or North America). If they blew that team away, we would send in snipers and such. If they didn't, we would probably treat them as if they were emissaries from another country and have negotiations with them. We would also probably end up telling them to leave, as that whole "taking the planet for the emperor" thing wouldn't go over well with anyone. The Space Marines wouldn't leave, and then the fighting begins.

Thats ok, no offense taken

Snipers could easily be at 2 km away from the marines and fire from there, with guns strong enough to cut a normal human in half, and that's only the .50, mind you.

25mm Objective Sniper Weapon from 2 km away. SM argument is invalid.

We still have no prof whatsoever that this rifle can penetrate power armor, especially when the shot is fired from 2km.
Astartes power armor is known to deflect tank shots and even Gauss blaster rifle ( Fall of Damnos ), so why do people think that after this fluff references we can penetrate their armor with our infantry weapons?

And I personally doubt that USAF will send A-10 or AC-130 on a 10 men squad, they wouldn't even send Abrams on them not to mention aircraft who cost millions of dollars. I won't even mention nukes as we would do more damage to ourselves then to Astartes, the only way to defeat them is to overrun them with infantry, just like Imperial Guard.

A mounty. On a polar bear.

@Coa

It's all speculation, there's no hard evidence for either argument. And I lol'd really damn hard at the "only way to defeat them is to overrun them with infantry." Please, that hasn't been a viable tactic in decades (unless you happen to be China), there's a reason why FA is called the King of Battle. And don't be so sure we wouldn't "waste" million dollar weapon systems to pop ten or so SM. We've "wasted" such weapons on targets that posed a significantly lesser threat.

Brother Coa wrote:We still have no prof whatsoever that this rifle can penetrate power armor, especially when the shot is fired from 2km.
Astartes power armor is known to deflect tank shots and even Gauss blaster rifle ( Fall of Damnos ), so why do people think that after this fluff references we can penetrate their armor with our infantry weapons?

And I personally doubt that USAF will send A-10 or AC-130 on a 10 men squad, they wouldn't even send Abrams on them not to mention aircraft who cost millions of dollars. I won't even mention nukes as we would do more damage to ourselves then to Astartes, the only way to defeat them is to overrun them with infantry, just like Imperial Guard.

Lasgun is roughly a .50 shot in power, the 25mm is much more powerful than a .50, probably even more than a bolt, at least its bigger, so yes, a shot of the thing should turn the SM head into slush.

King Pariah wrote:
It's all speculation, there's no hard evidence for either argument. And I lol'd really damn hard at the "only way to defeat them is to overrun them with infantry." Please, that hasn't been a viable tactic in decades (unless you happen to be China), there's a reason why FA is called the King of Battle. And don't be so sure we wouldn't "waste" million dollar weapon systems to pop ten or so SM. We've "wasted" such weapons on targets that posed a significantly lesser threat.

It's ok... When I said "only way to defeat them is to overrun them with infantry." I meant for Chapter in general, not just 10 Marines.
And I doubt that Fast Assault would succeed against Astartes who are masters of it ( they defeated the Tau that way, who are also masters in Fast Assault ).
I am sure that US would eventually use A-10, I was trying to say that they wouldn't use them immediately. They would first send platoon or two of infantry and only after they were defeated tanks and aircraft.


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Bobthehero wrote:
Lasgun is roughly a .50 shot in power, the 25mm is much more powerful than a .50, probably even more than a bolt, at least its bigger, so yes, a shot of the thing should turn the SM head into slush.

But first you need to hit that head, second you need to penetrate the helmet and third you must survive the fire the net time.
Chances are slim given Astartes reaction time and strength of their armor. Remember that we are talking about super-human genetically altered Angels of Death not common solder.

But to be perfectly fair, nothing less then powerful sniper, tanks, artillery and aircraft would be able to even scratch them.

A 25 mm is a powerful rifle, at 2 km, the SM won't see it coming.

Like I said - you need to hit him first and not many people can do that from that distance today. Even if you hit him you can't be sure that marine would die as they survived much more dangerous stuff.

We aren't even sure that 25 mm rifle would even penetrate Astartes helmet, it is as hard as hell.

King of Battle: Field Artillery, not fast attack

second off, the 25mm round that the XM-109 fires is roughly 2.5 more powerful than the .50 cal round fired by the M-107. In other words, it's a can opener, and by can opener, I mean tank popper.

Also, it's equipped with a computerized sight designed to assist to take out targets 1,000 meters out and farther and the effective distance armor piercing “lethality” for the rifle is 2000 meters.

Most snipers would be able to take a 2 km shot, there was a time where the closest target the snipers fired at was 1.5 km away.

Yeah, that could do some damage. Even from 3,6 kilometers as i can see.
But you could really kill just one marine with that rifle, not more. And if we take wind conditions and terrain and Astartes superior reflexes even that one shot will be difficult to preform.
Just because they can make a rifle that can shoot 2 or 3 km doesn't mean it will effectively hit it's target or even kill it with each shoot.

That is why you bring more than one rifle.

Bobthehero wrote:Most snipers would be able to take a 2 km shot, there was a time where the closest target the snipers fired at was 1.5 km away.

Most snipers - not most sharpshooters.
And what would he do against remaining 9? Or against Assault Marines?

I still think that the best way to deal with squad of Astartes is to send 150 - 200 troopers and eventually they will crumble.
Snipers are good - so are grenade launchers and 150 - 200 M16 with AP ammo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bobthehero wrote:That is why you bring more than one rifle.

You try to hit target that sprints at 2 or 3 km, or even 150 meters.
Real life is not Call of Duty you know...

The SM won't close up 2 km in 2 seconds, they won't immediatly know where the shots are coming, the snipers can lay in ambush, wait for the SM to stop moving, open fire at the time, the OP doesn't mention assault marines.

And the BORS scope (the one on the XM-109) compensates for wind, heat, and all those nifty annoying factors that one has to take account for and has a rangefinder and night vision. 2km away, a team of ten SpecOps, bye bye SM.


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You're just so convinced that their tech is so superior to our own. Did you ever think at what level our tech is at? Or how fast our tech improves? We're looking at a biologically immortal human race by roughly 2035, AI by 2050 (which also happens to be the technological singularity event past which we have no idea how fast the growth in technology will be). Currently we are developing, and successfully tested an artillery piece that can strike anywhere in the world from any one location with a vehicle that carries it's payload at Mach 30+. Hell, if humanity makes it to 3000 AD, you can be pretty sure we will have surpassed the Imperium of M41

That's still hardcore sci-fi - for now.
And I very much doubt everybody will have access to it when we have access to that level of technology.

The biological immortality? we already have access to it, and it's getting cheaper, and more easy to access (2005 the treatment costed $20,000 a month, today, $2000). You can thank Mrs. Henrietta Lacks for that.

Brother Coa wrote:That's still hardcore sci-fi - for now.
And I very much doubt everybody will have access to it when we have access to that level of technology.

not at all. You want lasers that heal people? Got'em. You have no clue how advanced the stuff we have today is. Please stop saying that the SM are uber-powerful gods of destruction when they can be taken out by pretty much any weapon we have today.

McNinja wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That's still hardcore sci-fi - for now.
And I very much doubt everybody will have access to it when we have access to that level of technology.

not at all. You want lasers that heal people? Got'em. You have no clue how advanced the stuff we have today is. Please stop saying that the SM are uber-powerful gods of destruction when they can be taken out by pretty much any weapon we have today.

They kinda are McNinja. Space Marines have optics we can't even explain, they have a plasma cannon and a melta gun. Remember that the Space marine drop pod would come out of nowhere and probably drop in the midst of them and the biggest threat I.E. the sniper would be dead.

And who said space marines suck at stealth? Raven Guard would love to talk to you for just a moment.

And those who say well they aren't advanced....
There guns are .75mm rounds. Those are very big shells, those can kill anything. Depending on how experience the marine squad is, we are screwed if they are veterans, because space marines aren't all the lovable and see-able Ultramarines who don't wear camo like other chapters do.

Let us not forgot that sometimes Space Marines come with stalker pattern bolters, which make our sniper rifles look like crap. In the fluff (Telion) they can kill tyranid hive tyrants with a single shot.

We are also dealing with the 40k space marines grenades. Krak and frag grenades.
And Krak grenades instead of exploding, Implode. Implosions are instant kills for anything having talked to my physics teacher about it, in theory a single implosion would destroy an entire tank.

Then they have adamanitum armor. Which just makes a mockery of metal. (Even though its fantasy most likely a mix between titanium and some other strong metal that we currently have discovered yet.) Then Cermaite which is incredibly heat resistant. Good luck finding the Marines if they don't even have a heat registry when they could randomly turn off their body to make it seem like they are dead. And how will we know that they are dead? We don't know their physiology knowing good ole military scientists they will bring them to a faculity try and study them and then they all die because the marine wakes up.

We cannot compare to a sci-fiction, where their basic weapon is 50x powerful than our most powerful assault rifle.

And those who say "Well lasguns can kill them!"
You do realize that is traitor armor right? most of the time lasguns pierce through Traitor armor which is incredibly inferior to the newer marks of power armor.

Though that is all I am saying on this subject as I hate versus threads.

Now we this
5 Bradley Fighting Vehicles, each containing a special forces team
2 M1 Abrams Tanks
3 AH-64 Apache Helicopters
3 Black Hawk Helicopters each containing a special forces team
1 M270 MLRS
2 M109 Howitzers
vs a marine tactical squad
Okay thats unfair, the military wins then. They are outnumbered, outflanked, and outgunned. And no transports? What the hell is a single marine squad doing on a planet by themselves? "OH crap we forgot the rest of the company!"
Anyway enjoy your debate.

McNinja wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That's still hardcore sci-fi - for now.
And I very much doubt everybody will have access to it when we have access to that level of technology.

not at all. You want lasers that heal people? Got'em. You have no clue how advanced the stuff we have today is.

In that case I want a spaceship with a warp drive and I want to start colonizing the stars. And a time machine to visit the ancient sites. What did you guys said? 2035? I am so in it...

Please stop saying that the SM are uber-powerful gods of destruction when they can be taken out by pretty much any weapon we have today.

Right.... tell that to the others who tough like that and finished up in a pile of ruble. Like we can defeat Imeprium in war? We, a small planet with pitiful 7 billion against an empire of million worlds...

I am not saying we couldn't kill one marine squad - that is easy give n our tech - but some people think tha we can beat the Imeprium full power to.


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King Pariah wrote:The biological immortality? we already have access to it, and it's getting cheaper, and more easy to access (2005 the treatment costed $20,000 a month, today, $2000). You can thank Mrs. Henrietta Lacks for that.

Maybe you in US and other rich countries, what is 95% of planet suppose to say...?

@Asherian Command .75 cal is NOT artillery, not even close. It's a big round, but it is not artillery

King Pariah wrote:@Asherian Command .75 cal is NOT artillery, not even close. It's a big round, but it is not artillery

Oh crap, just noticed that. Bleh, my fault, lets change that

Brother Coa, for population control purposes, Species with longer longevity also tend to breed less. In a world with increasingly dwindling resources, it's become "necessary."


Also would like to say that HeLa cells (the key for biological immortality) is available in just about every country.