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Kharrak wrote:As Orks, use KMB's on the Paladins (have nothing else go near them), assault the Psyfle-Dreads, and shoot at the Purifiers. Lootas can focus on fliers, or any other infantry units.

As Dark Eldar, prioritize those psyfledreads with lances or Haywire (anything as long as you prevent them from firing). Target Paladins with Lances and Blasters and never assault them, opt to fire on Purifiers instead of assaulting them, be very careful how you use your Inbuci, and remember that FNP and your two Monstrous Creatures are going to have a lot of trouble. Disintegrators will likely help a lot.

In general, watch out for Death Cult Assassins, which are ludicrously powerful when combined with Rad and Psychotrope grenades, and hammerhands. Try to get them out of their transport, and fire on them in the open, where they will simply melt away. When equipped with an Inquisitor, a Techmarine, and something else to give them that second hammerhand, they decimate most things.

Good advice here! Gents take it into consideration.

I think Dark Eldar have it the easiest against GK. They have a plethora of AP 2 weapons, most of which can be taken on basic troops (Dark Lances, Blasters) and on gunboats (Disintegrators). With the exception of Psyfledreads, Dark Eldar, and especially Dark Eldar vehicles with Night Shields, will have a very easy time saying out of range of the vast majority of GK weapon range.

Oh, and Reavers. Nothing like Cluster Caltrops/bladevanes to run a unit into the ground with an overabundance of wounds.

In practice, DE v GK feels balanced on a razor's edge. Both have elements that are extremely vulnerable to the other's firepower types. Mass psyflemen and psybacks can seriously constrain the DE movement options, as a psyfleman has a good chance of killing even a rav through cover. Lances are strongest when they're just looking for suppression results, but grey knights ignore suppression, forcing the DE to guarantee the kill. However, DE can be elusive enough to make it extremely frustrating for the GK midfield elements to get shots in. In my opinion each army has a number of strengths that either exploit an opposing weakness very well or balance off against an opposing strength very well.

In general, the Grey Knights are hard for most typical armies to handle due to near-immunity to armour suppression. Tactically, it's better to focus on destroying or tarpitting armour instead. The usual mass-suppression fire of scatter lasers/autocannons/other medium guns just doesn't work as well because so many results are pretty much useless.

The lower model count and emphasis on duality with psycannons means that you really should try to just overwhelm them with targets. GK like to fight outside their transports, so it's feasible to just ignore the rhinos sometimes. Psychic defenses are also broadly useful and particularly against GK. Runes of Warding, and suddenly, suppression works again.

Unless the DE spam raiders and dark lances, they'll probably struggle against GKs. Most DE lists I see spam a lot of venoms with blaster-toting troops on board...not going to work. Can't risk getting out to shoot the blasters, as the GK troops will murder DE troops, and can't afford to stay on the vehicle and try to slowly move around firing, because the psycannons will hurt you.

It gets worse with razor spam GKs...HB razorbacks with psybolts will quickly destroy DE fliers, and even assault cannons with psybolts will be in range in a turn or two and easily down a skimmer a turn.

I love my DE, but I had to give them up because fighting IG chimera walls with hydras was an impossible hurdle. Most GK lists aren't quite that bad, but they're pretty close.

The only problem I have with the GK is the stormraven...That thing always tears me a new one as DE.

So approach it in proper DE fashion and tear IT a new one first

If nothing else it's demoralizing to the opponent to see such a large and impressive (must ..hold..poker..face..) model bite the dust.

Haywire Blasters. You wanna' De-fang StormRavens? Hit them with 4-8 off those Haywires. Reliable. Likely to tear up the 'Raven weapons and though they will take extra armor on it, it probably won't survive to use them. those weapons are just remarkably useful.

Grey knights have we found their weekness? recap - they can vary in list and alter your advantages.

Advantages you generally have
- range grey knights lack good ranged fire power thats longer then 3 feet.
- Typically transport less and naked make them hit the open
- Low Ap can devistate them properly
- Use Templates
- Avoid/remove rifle dreads sneakily
- Avoid combat when capable and or choose your fight when it bests suits you. Grey knights are monsters in melee.


Lets see if anything else pops up.

Brother Ramses wrote:As a SW player;

Long Fang spam using FRAG, not krak.
Melta and Plasma Grey Hunters.
Thunderlord and TWC go hunting rifle dreads.

Basically volume of fire on infantry and TWC on vehicles/rifle dreads.

That's some of the worst advice I've ever seen. You'd have to wound 3 GK's with one frag missile to kill as many as you would with 1 krak missile. Good luck hitting 6 guys with one small bast template.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cormadepanda wrote:Grey knights have we found their weekness? recap - they can vary in list and alter your advantages.

Advantages you generally have
- range grey knights lack good ranged fire power thats longer then 3 feet.
- Typically transport less and naked make them hit the open
- Low Ap can devistate them properly
- Use Templates
- Avoid/remove rifle dreads sneakily
- Avoid combat when capable and or choose your fight when it bests suits you. Grey knights are monsters in melee.


Lets see if anything else pops up.

1) Psyfleman dreads are the best long range AT in the game
2) Only Paladins, Purifiers and strikes will tend to have transports
3) True, but its hard to pack a lot of low AP weaponry into a list without tailoring it
4) Why is using templates against them good? Wouldn't it be better against an army with a lot of models? If anything I would argue templates are less effective (unless they're ap2/3, but thats not what you said)
5) You can't really avoid something that can move and shoot 48"
6) Not all GK's. Strike Squads are pretty poor in CC for their cost unless they're facing something that relies on FnP or high armor saves but low toughness. Terminators are just terminators

People like to try and make excuses for them, but GK's are pretty overpowered. I would recommend tailoring your list slightly to dealing with them since they're so common.

Obviously they die to shooting just like normal marines, so that's ideally the best way to go. Also you HAVE to bring anti psyker capabilities (aka another psycher). And when you opponent tries to use all those crazy grenades....well there's nothing you can do. They're the most slowed thing in 40k

Things that work well against GKs;

1. Low AP weapons work well against everything so will not into it further here.

2. Psychic defences- If your army has psychic defence it will always come into play against the GKs. Whether its a Psychic Hood or SitW anything to not make GK psychic checks more or less automatic is a plus.

3. Long range fire- Most everything has a range of 24" for the GKs. Sure you can take the odd lascannon or the autocannon dreads but there is likely never going to be an abundance of these longer ranged weapons. Sit back and shoot as the GKs advance, they for the most part have to. Blast at GK units on objectives until the last moment then try and take or contest.

4. Assault- Contrary to many opinions (even after a year released), the GKs are not an assault army. Yes, force weapons for everyone are great but you still have only WS4, S4 attacks at base that are dealt at I4. You can upgrade GKs with halberds for I6 but they are still only WS4, S4. Now the real threat is the Hammerhand or Might of Titan lurking around, that is why we brought psychic defence. Once GKs start hitting and wounding like SMs they are not as fearsome (if you are playing anarmy with base T3 then this is more of a problem but again regular SM are a problem as well).

5. 3++- This is really an extension of #4, units with an invulnerable save of 3+ is nearly a death-knell for GKs. In combat GKs, cannot match-up with stormshield equipped units. Warding Staves are awesome but you can't take enough to turn the balance of the melee. Paladins are especally vulnerable to assault Termies with hammers & shields.

I have always felt that the real strength of the 'dex was on the Inquisition side. The variety of ranged and combat weapons are more emphasized and cheaper allowing the player to build a list that is strong agaisnt a variety of opponents. The GKs being much higher costed lack this flexibility and can be exploited more easily IMO.

Doctor33 wrote:Things that work well against GKs;

1. Low AP weapons work well against everything so will not into it further here.

2. Psychic defences- If your army has psychic defence it will always come into play against the GKs. Whether its a Psychic Hood or SitW anything to not make GK psychic checks more or less automatic is a plus.

3. Long range fire- Most everything has a range of 24" for the GKs. Sure you can take the odd lascannon or the autocannon dreads but there is likely never going to be an abundance of these longer ranged weapons. Sit back and shoot as the GKs advance, they for the most part have to. Blast at GK units on objectives until the last moment then try and take or contest.

4. Assault- Contrary to many opinions (even after a year released), the GKs are not an assault army. Yes, force weapons for everyone are great but you still have only WS4, S4 attacks at base that are dealt at I4. You can upgrade GKs with halberds for I6 but they are still only WS4, S4. Now the real threat is the Hammerhand or Might of Titan lurking around, that is why we brought psychic defence. Once GKs start hitting and wounding like SMs they are not as fearsome (if you are playing anarmy with base T3 then this is more of a problem but again regular SM are a problem as well).

5. 3++- This is really an extension of #4, units with an invulnerable save of 3+ is nearly a death-knell for GKs. In combat GKs, cannot match-up with stormshield equipped units. Warding Staves are awesome but you can't take enough to turn the balance of the melee. Paladins are especally vulnerable to assault Termies with hammers & shields.

I have always felt that the real strength of the 'dex was on the Inquisition side. The variety of ranged and combat weapons are more emphasized and cheaper allowing the player to build a list that is strong agaisnt a variety of opponents. The GKs being much higher costed lack this flexibility and can be exploited more easily IMO.

Invulnerable saves are good against GK and Gk do lack effective range, a typicall list even wth dreads has only 3 dreads - which with cover your tantk/trukk has a high surviablity rate. Agreed about the physic defense because GK become amazing when they get you use their powers.

Im glad i dont have to play against them anytime soon

Doctor33 wrote:4. Assault- Contrary to many opinions (even after a year released), the GKs are not an assault army. Yes, force weapons for everyone are great but you still have only WS4, S4 attacks at base that are dealt at I4. You can upgrade GKs with halberds for I6 but they are still only WS4, S4. Now the real threat is the Hammerhand or Might of Titan lurking around, that is why we brought psychic defence. Once GKs start hitting and wounding like SMs they are not as fearsome (if you are playing anarmy with base T3 then this is more of a problem but again regular SM are a problem as well).

This varies wildly depending on the army one is fielding.

Orks, for example, have no psychic defense, and nothing that can even worry Paladins in close combat - even though they happily trounce through normal space marines and terminators. Purifiers are a natural worry for them as well.

Kharrak wrote:

Doctor33 wrote:4. Assault- Contrary to many opinions (even after a year released), the GKs are not an assault army. Yes, force weapons for everyone are great but you still have only WS4, S4 attacks at base that are dealt at I4. You can upgrade GKs with halberds for I6 but they are still only WS4, S4. Now the real threat is the Hammerhand or Might of Titan lurking around, that is why we brought psychic defence. Once GKs start hitting and wounding like SMs they are not as fearsome (if you are playing anarmy with base T3 then this is more of a problem but again regular SM are a problem as well).

This varies wildly depending on the army one is fielding.

Orks, for example, have no psychic defense, and nothing that can even worry Paladins in close combat - even though they happily trounce through normal space marines and terminators. Purifiers are a natural worry for them as well.

very true!

As an ork player, i'm not really that scared of purifiers. Why? Because even though people are always screaming that purifiers can trounce both boyz and nobz in cc with either cleansing flames or force weapons, it isn't true. A standard seven (against grey knights, i will often spring for an eighth) man nob squad can handle a ten-man purifier squad IF (big if) they get the charge. Reason for this is there aren't as many force attacks in that squad as you think there are. 4 of those guys have psycannons, so they get no force weapons, and the knight of flame just has a thunderhammer, which is no change from a sarg with a pf. The nobz will be whittled down to a standard 5 or 6 man squad, which in turn can handle a 5 man purifier squad IF (anouther big if) they get the charge. After that, they're kinda gone, but they can still harass stuff. The main thing about forceweapons that you have to remember is that besides insta-deaths, they still hit on 4's, wound on 4's, and have to eat through a 5++ cybork save. One purifier has only 2 attacks, so you need about three of them to drop one nob. (2 attacks hit 50%, one hit. One hit wounds 50%, .5 wounds. Gets through save 66%, 2/3 of .5 is about .33, times 3 = one dead nob.)

Thats why Psyfledreds always shoot down whats transporting the Nobs first. Unless you are running a bunch of BWs you will find it difficult to engage the Purifiers with Nobs without taking some fire first.

Grey Templar wrote:Thats why Psyfledreds always shoot down whats transporting the Nobs first. Unless you are running a bunch of BWs you will find it difficult to engage the Purifiers with Nobs without taking some fire first.

That's why I run four.

loota boy wrote:As an ork player, i'm not really that scared of purifiers. Why? Because even though people are always screaming that purifiers can trounce both boyz and nobz in cc with either cleansing flames or force weapons, it isn't true. A standard seven (against grey knights, i will often spring for an eighth) man nob squad can handle a ten-man purifier squad IF (big if) they get the charge. Reason for this is there aren't as many force attacks in that squad as you think there are. 4 of those guys have psycannons, so they get no force weapons, and the knight of flame just has a thunderhammer, which is no change from a sarg with a pf. The nobz will be whittled down to a standard 5 or 6 man squad, which in turn can handle a 5 man purifier squad IF (anouther big if) they get the charge. After that, they're kinda gone, but they can still harass stuff. The main thing about forceweapons that you have to remember is that besides insta-deaths, they still hit on 4's, wound on 4's, and have to eat through a 5++ cybork save. One purifier has only 2 attacks, so you need about three of them to drop one nob. (2 attacks hit 50%, one hit. One hit wounds 50%, .5 wounds. Gets through save 66%, 2/3 of .5 is about .33, times 3 = one dead nob.)

Purifiers can be dealt with without much trouble - as Orks (shoot at them!). Nobs are a better unit to toss at them, since they can put out the attacks to decimate them while only losing about two nobs.

Deathcult Assassins with Rad grenades, and two hammerhands? And Paladins? Nobs aint gonna help ya.

Kharrak wrote:

loota boy wrote:As an ork player, i'm not really that scared of purifiers. Why? Because even though people are always screaming that purifiers can trounce both boyz and nobz in cc with either cleansing flames or force weapons, it isn't true. A standard seven (against grey knights, i will often spring for an eighth) man nob squad can handle a ten-man purifier squad IF (big if) they get the charge. Reason for this is there aren't as many force attacks in that squad as you think there are. 4 of those guys have psycannons, so they get no force weapons, and the knight of flame just has a thunderhammer, which is no change from a sarg with a pf. The nobz will be whittled down to a standard 5 or 6 man squad, which in turn can handle a 5 man purifier squad IF (anouther big if) they get the charge. After that, they're kinda gone, but they can still harass stuff. The main thing about forceweapons that you have to remember is that besides insta-deaths, they still hit on 4's, wound on 4's, and have to eat through a 5++ cybork save. One purifier has only 2 attacks, so you need about three of them to drop one nob. (2 attacks hit 50%, one hit. One hit wounds 50%, .5 wounds. Gets through save 66%, 2/3 of .5 is about .33, times 3 = one dead nob.)

Purifiers can be dealt with without much trouble - as Orks (shoot at them!). Nobs are a better unit to toss at them, since they can put out the attacks to decimate them while only losing about two nobs.

Deathcult Assassins with Rad grenades, and two hammerhands? And Paladins? Nobs aint gonna help ya.

Yes, but we can all agree that deathcults are pretty ridiculous no matter what army. They are fairly frail in the shooting phase though. Paladins? Avoid them. I can't really thing of anything else, besides bombing them with a blitza bomma and hoping you get the result where it crashes. Autmoatic lascannon hits on all of the bastards!

loota boy wrote:Yes, but we can all agree that deathcults are pretty ridiculous no matter what army. They are fairly frail in the shooting phase though. Paladins? Avoid them. I can't really thing of anything else, besides bombing them with a blitza bomma and hoping you get the result where it crashes. Autmoatic lascannon hits on all of the bastards!

Pretty much, yeah. Get those Deathcultists in the open, they aren't an issue.

As I stated, for Paladins, point KMB's in their general direction - really helps thin them out.

Necron Triarch Stalkers do well against Grey Knight Paladins in CC. It takes them double hammerhand to be able to break through AV13. Lots of Tesla helps too, they cant save them all. I once shot a Draigo Paladin squad with one Tesla Destructor and put two wounds on Draigo one on the banner and one on the hammer.

In theory a Stalker would tie them up for a while but not if they have another character in there.

One Hammerhand makes any Hammers in the squad Str10. If there is a Librarian in or nearby then the squad will have 2D6 armor penetration and the Stalker will be toast.

Grey Templar wrote:In theory a Stalker would tie them up for a while but not if they have another character in there.

One Hammerhand makes any Hammers in the squad Str10. If there is a Librarian in or nearby then the squad will have 2D6 armor penetration and the Stalker will be toast.

Thought hammerhand would apply after hammer, like ferious charge for orks power kawl

the HH psychic power explicitly states it applies before you double the strength for a Hammer or Fist.

FAQ makes Hammerhane pretty clearly awesome.

While I hardly have multiple games with my bikes against GK (2 total), 2k of melta bikes (white scars) have handled GK very well. Since I'm outflanking, I get an alpha strike no matter what, and its a lot of AP1 being thrown around.

In my most recent GK vs WS battle I had a few more models than him (like 5), but his 2 dreads (1 must have been a ven) and 2 dreadknights popped in my alpha strike. He had two squads of termies, one of which mulched through two squads of bikes before I put them down, but nothing else was really that hard to handle... though I now hate halberds with a vengeance.

loota boy wrote:As an ork player, i'm not really that scared of purifiers. Why? Because even though people are always screaming that purifiers can trounce both boyz and nobz in cc with either cleansing flames or force weapons, it isn't true. A standard seven (against grey knights, i will often spring for an eighth) man nob squad can handle a ten-man purifier squad IF (big if) they get the charge. Reason for this is there aren't as many force attacks in that squad as you think there are. 4 of those guys have psycannons, so they get no force weapons, and the knight of flame just has a thunderhammer, which is no change from a sarg with a pf. The nobz will be whittled down to a standard 5 or 6 man squad, which in turn can handle a 5 man purifier squad IF (anouther big if) they get the charge. After that, they're kinda gone, but they can still harass stuff. The main thing about forceweapons that you have to remember is that besides insta-deaths, they still hit on 4's, wound on 4's, and have to eat through a 5++ cybork save. One purifier has only 2 attacks, so you need about three of them to drop one nob. (2 attacks hit 50%, one hit. One hit wounds 50%, .5 wounds. Gets through save 66%, 2/3 of .5 is about .33, times 3 = one dead nob.)

Okay, guy.

Let's see here. You're saying that you're not scared of Purifiers because even though they can butcher your standard troop choice, if you pick an elite unit that is only capable of CC combat and incapable of any kind of point-efficient shooting, if and only if you get the charge, you can wipe out a Purifier Squad (e.g. if 2 or 3 PKs get to swing at I1).

I don't see how you aren't seeing the problems with this, but to start, why don't you go ahead and make a list that's composed only of 7 man Nob squads. Get the picture? See how this is already an issue? What are you proposing, a list composed entirely of Nobs, or a list composed of Boyz that never reach CC? That's ridiculous. How care you going to tune such a list for competitive play?

And better yet, what are you going to do if the following happens? Each 10 man Purifier Squad is wearing 4 Psycannons.

4 Psycannons in heavy mode, which they probably will be if you're flinging Nobs at them, since Nobs are only good at CC and cannot outshoot Purifiers, do this to a Battlewagon with KFF in one turn of shooting:

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting_vehicles.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;4;4;4;7;4;;;;;;;;;;;1;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;14;4;;1;&v=0

Are we beginning to see a problem here?

If that Battlewagon suffers a destroyed result, and your Nobs are forced to footslog and subjected to one single round of shooting from AC Dreads:

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;3;4;4;8;4;;;;;1;;;;;;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;2;4;6;5;;;;1;;&v=0

Or, if your Nobs have just completed a successful assault phase, you are now talking about also having them being subjected to the above.

Not scared of Purifiers. Try making a list and playing them.

Actually, from the battle reports I've read, shoota boyz do surprisingly well against Purifiers.

At any rate, spammy lists are spammy, and have the drawback of being able to develop hard counters for them. This has been true for every such list.

daedalus wrote:Actually, from the battle reports I've read, shoota boyz do surprisingly well against Purifiers.

At any rate, spammy lists are spammy, and have the drawback of being able to develop hard counters for them. This has been true for every such list.

Shoota Boyz would do fine theoretically as long as you can keep the Purifiers from assaulting.

Nobz don't strike me as a good idea, though, because if you were a smart player you would focus them with your AC Dreads as soon as they were done with a successful combat.

Makes sense to me. I'd probably even 'feed' the Nobz a wounded purifier squad or something if it meant that I could have a round of firing into them.