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Grey Templar wrote:
44% is a 'slight' price bump?

Percentages can distort. An Ork boy is a whopping ONE HUNDRED PERCENT pricier than a grot! Who could build an army out of such inneficient building blocks?

In real terms, as long as a good basic troop is under 22 points, plus the important upgrades, you can spam it to fill out the necessary slots and then fill the rest with the killy stuff that will support it, knowing that both together will be overwhelming. IE Grey Hunters, Khorne Berserkers, BA Assault Marines, meltavets, you name it.

I'm not saying GKs are invincible. They can be beaten, sometimes easily, even. But their cost is not a weakness. It would be if they were exactly as killy as regular tacticals/jump troops/Dreads for an increased price. That is not the case. They cost (slightly) more and also do (a lot) more.

My personal advice would be to load up on anti-psyker defense (Eldar have a particularly easy time here) so their vehicles can actually suffer results in a more normal fashion, and do your best to spam three levels of firepower: S9 to crack Dreads, S7-8 for transports, and long-range, high-gain mass fire of lower strength to pile saves onto regular troops until they fail enough to cease to be a big danger.

cormadepanda wrote:

Dr. Serling wrote:

cormadepanda wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, Demolisher cannons, Battle cannons, Plasma, any AP2-3 blasts will take GKs out rapidly.

Sadly orks seem the least suited to do this and vanilla marines seem under par for it, the best spamm for that is imperial guard in my opinion.

Would would be the prefered melee weapon against grey knights, so far my best sucess for grey knights as ork was a flaming battlewagon with a mek with kff. I tankshock/deffrolla a unit and then stack 16 flamers on them. But i must know when play a "sub par dex" what would you take dakka? what is your favored? What has won you CC against grey knights?

I played the knights just last night....I beat crowe and two purifier squads with guardians...not even storm guardians. Guardian defenders. It also helps when you have runes of warding and every time he tries to hammerhand or something like that somebody loses their head.

As long as they have no death cult assassins, henchmen and inquisitors are easy to beat in cc as well.

Eldar just rape Grey knights in my opinion. Espeically because someones head does pop...lol nice game.

I've been reading battle reports on Reecius's foot Eldar army lately (yes, I said foot Eldar) and it looks to me like what he says about them being especially good against GK must be true.

The army is a variant of an old Elfzilla style army with 2 antitank wraithlords plus some foot dragons for the psyflemen, Avatar, Eldrad, and the full 10 harlies for counterattack. The thing that makes the list different is 2 or 3 units of 10 dire avengers with no upgrades. That is a crapload of Str4 shots at 18" (24" effective range), especially when augmented by doom and/or guide, should be enough to wipe whole units of purifiers once they're out of their transports. And dire avengers get their 4+ armor save against stormbolters too.

Search the batrep forum for Reecius and Footdar to check it out.

cormadepanda wrote: i am looking for whats a obivious exploit that we can use. I am also leaving it open ended for you to say general ideas on what would dare i say. . . counter the grey knights. To offer some humor/bait here is a video.

Funniest. Video. Ever. I am still almost crying, I laughed so hard.

Okay so here's the basics of my solicited opinion. The Grey Knights essentially go naked. They dont overwhelm you with their number of armored transports, as it limits their rates of fire and they rely completely on the rate of fire to carry the day. Ironically, it is therefore rate of fire that is the best weapon against them and even moderately high str weapons are plenty. Even DreadKnights, though cool in melee, tend to do more damage shooting unless you're just a silly face and don't know where the 5" mark is.

Main thing: their Dreadnoughts fire copiously, and present the most immediate and important threat. Three of them are 12 TL STR 8 shots and this is seen commonly. That is a deadly salvo to anything and anyone.

The trick seems to be that you need to present no targets early, gank the Dreadnoughts from behind in some ninja fashion or tie them up (They have no power weapons usually), or otherwise make them unable to contribute meaningfully; and then flood the units from one side or the other with shots, such that only one or two units can fire back if any; plus be sure that ALL enemy units are forced to move in order TO fire. Kill Crowe with shooting cause he's like a torpedoe: when he hits its usually against something vital
Ready? GO! So what do you have that can do that? What strategies must you employ?

Dark Eldar, as Hitler will apparently tell you, can be fragile and susceptible in the extreme to Grey Knights when you build them as he clearly does or deploy them as he does. Dont follow Hitlers example. =). I just bought a mass of Dark Eldar yesterday. We'll see how it does.

I purchased some things that will let me carry out this vital mandate though. I can sneak up on the enemy and gank Dreadnoughts from the Webway portal or at range (but mostly the portal since ranged attempts will cease quite quickly against those Dread guns the GK have, so best not to try and compete with them immediately). I have taken heavy duty nightmares in my army that can multicharge vehicles and Halberdiers. I'll Bring in the anti-infantry/Crowe cavalry (Disintegrator Cannons) while the enemy is trying to respond to the threats to the Dreadnoughts. The Cannons possess greater range than the Grey Knights. My centerpiece is the Bomber who will come in no doubt to drop its payload on Grey Knights after they finish an assault. The more under the templates, the merrier. Kill kill, blood makes the grass grow.

Sprinkle in Hexrifle Fire to pin the enemy and try to instakill Castellan Crowe who is annoyingly good at times.

Since I play Crowe Knights, I am lookin forward ot testing this theory.

...What about Tyranids? the only AP3 or lower is range 12".

I never go for punchweapons against Grey Knights... Doesnt matter which army you play... just try to force as many cover/armor/inv saves. They cant save em all,... and youll most likely be outnumbering them anyways...

cormadepanda wrote:So my Dakka mates i am here suggesting on how we kill the Grey Knights. In general we are looking for a weakness to exploit on the general purfier spamm/general grey knight codex. If we exaggerate it to far/ get to wide or too focus on one unit we are losing general capablities to fight them.

There are a few strategies you can use to mitigate grey knights

Bodies, Bodies, Bodies
MSU shooty body spam blocks GK pretty well. Don't drop 80 BA assault marines and expect them to outperform purifiers power weapons. However, dropping 60 grey hunters with 12 PG can cause a world of pain for puriifer spam. Simply put, psycannons and psydreads can't kill enough of your army.
When going with this route, you must bring lots of MEQ models. At 1500 points you should bring 60 models, and at least 80 at 2000 points.

AV 12+ spam
If you can bring a lot of AV 12+ vehicles to the board, you can give GK a hard time. AV 14 is even better, as the only weapon the GK have is 24" range that loses half its shooting when they move. This means GK have a hard time with 3 LRBTs and lots of chimeras -- the sheer amount of AV 12+ spam is to much. LRBTs are nearly immune to psydreads.

Mobility
If you can force the GK to keep moving and shooting, they lose 50% of their psycannon firepower. This can be very helpful when your trying to trade shots. A good example of this would be mech'dar just scooting back and shooting.

Have an answer for psydreads
You need to have something to address the psydreads. You can use outflankers, fire dragons, or an army type that's immune to them. It does not matter what you do, so long as you have a plan for them.

labmouse42 wrote:

cormadepanda wrote:So my Dakka mates i am here suggesting on how we kill the Grey Knights. In general we are looking for a weakness to exploit on the general purfier spamm/general grey knight codex. If we exaggerate it to far/ get to wide or too focus on one unit we are losing general capablities to fight them.

There are a few strategies you can use to mitigate grey knights

Bodies, Bodies, Bodies
MSU shooty body spam blocks GK pretty well. Don't drop 80 BA assault marines and expect them to outperform purifiers power weapons. However, dropping 60 grey hunters with 12 PG can cause a world of pain for puriifer spam. Simply put, psycannons and psydreads can't kill enough of your army.
When going with this route, you must bring lots of MEQ models. At 1500 points you should bring 60 models, and at least 80 at 2000 points.

AV 12+ spam
If you can bring a lot of AV 12+ vehicles to the board, you can give GK a hard time. AV 14 is even better, as the only weapon the GK have is 24" range that loses half its shooting when they move. This means GK have a hard time with 3 LRBTs and lots of chimeras -- the sheer amount of AV 12+ spam is to much. LRBTs are nearly immune to psydreads.

Mobility
If you can force the GK to keep moving and shooting, they lose 50% of their psycannon firepower. This can be very helpful when your trying to trade shots. A good example of this would be mech'dar just scooting back and shooting.

Have an answer for psydreads
You need to have something to address the psydreads. You can use outflankers, fire dragons, or an army type that's immune to them. It does not matter what you do, so long as you have a plan for them.

Alright then Seems like we got this well rounded down mates! Keep the grey knights moving abusing their range and nerfing their rate of fire. Try to out witt the grey knight via outflank and or mass bodies. Use hordes out side melee, pack low ap with high shots and for the love of god use your templates. Seems easy. Would you all agree?

cormadepanda wrote:Alright then Seems like we got this well rounded down mates! Keep the grey knights moving abusing their range and nerfing their rate of fire. Try to out witt the grey knight via outflank and or mass bodies. Use hordes out side melee, pack low ap with high shots and for the love of god use your templates. Seems easy. Would you all agree?

No. Its not easy.
Possible, yes, but not easy.

There is a reason that at major tournaments your seeing 40% of the field being GK, and the majority of army lists making it into the top brackets being GK.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

cormadepanda wrote:

Dr. Serling wrote:

cormadepanda wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, Demolisher cannons, Battle cannons, Plasma, any AP2-3 blasts will take GKs out rapidly.

Sadly orks seem the least suited to do this and vanilla marines seem under par for it, the best spamm for that is imperial guard in my opinion.

Would would be the prefered melee weapon against grey knights, so far my best sucess for grey knights as ork was a flaming battlewagon with a mek with kff. I tankshock/deffrolla a unit and then stack 16 flamers on them. But i must know when play a "sub par dex" what would you take dakka? what is your favored? What has won you CC against grey knights?

I played the knights just last night....I beat crowe and two purifier squads with guardians...not even storm guardians. Guardian defenders. It also helps when you have runes of warding and every time he tries to hammerhand or something like that somebody loses their head.

As long as they have no death cult assassins, henchmen and inquisitors are easy to beat in cc as well.

Eldar just rape Grey knights in my opinion. Espeically because someones head does pop...lol nice game.

I've been reading battle reports on Reecius's foot Eldar army lately (yes, I said foot Eldar) and it looks to me like what he says about them being especially good against GK must be true.

The army is a variant of an old Elfzilla style army with 2 antitank wraithlords plus some foot dragons for the psyflemen, Avatar, Eldrad, and the full 10 harlies for counterattack. The thing that makes the list different is 2 or 3 units of 10 dire avengers with no upgrades. That is a crapload of Str4 shots at 18" (24" effective range), especially when augmented by doom and/or guide, should be enough to wipe whole units of purifiers once they're out of their transports. And dire avengers get their 4+ armor save against stormbolters too.

Search the batrep forum for Reecius and Footdar to check it out.

Very familiar with his army. Marching fragons up to psyflemen is damn hard, your opponent is likely to blast them off the table, even with cover. I have tried my footdar against them and I find range to be the best. Pathfinders and guardians. Scatter lasers at 3' do a lot of damage early on, and keep me out of psycannon range. Guardians still threaten if they get close. Pathfinders were my MVP, however. That many Ap1 shots at range makes a mockery of Paladins. I had my pathfinders Kill a dreadknight, 5 paladins and pin the paladins 3 times.

labmouse42 wrote:

cormadepanda wrote:So my Dakka mates i am here suggesting on how we kill the Grey Knights. In general we are looking for a weakness to exploit on the general purfier spamm/general grey knight codex. If we exaggerate it to far/ get to wide or too focus on one unit we are losing general capablities to fight them.

There are a few strategies you can use to mitigate grey knights

Bodies, Bodies, Bodies
MSU shooty body spam blocks GK pretty well. Don't drop 80 BA assault marines and expect them to outperform purifiers power weapons. However, dropping 60 grey hunters with 12 PG can cause a world of pain for puriifer spam. Simply put, psycannons and psydreads can't kill enough of your army.
When going with this route, you must bring lots of MEQ models. At 1500 points you should bring 60 models, and at least 80 at 2000 points.

AV 12+ spam
If you can bring a lot of AV 12+ vehicles to the board, you can give GK a hard time. AV 14 is even better, as the only weapon the GK have is 24" range that loses half its shooting when they move. This means GK have a hard time with 3 LRBTs and lots of chimeras -- the sheer amount of AV 12+ spam is to much. LRBTs are nearly immune to psydreads.

Mobility
If you can force the GK to keep moving and shooting, they lose 50% of their psycannon firepower. This can be very helpful when your trying to trade shots. A good example of this would be mech'dar just scooting back and shooting.

Have an answer for psydreads
You need to have something to address the psydreads. You can use outflankers, fire dragons, or an army type that's immune to them. It does not matter what you do, so long as you have a plan for them.

Mobility works, for a while. On an 8' by 4' you are safe, but on a 6' by 4' mechdar struggle. My last game I had three psyflemen in range of all of my tanks from the get go, and not very much LOS blocking terrain. Rushing up fire dragons will NOT work, unless you can completely obscure LOS(good luck with true LOS rules. I have tried this several times, and I have never managed to get dragons anywhere close to a dread. 4 S8 shots twin linked means they usually all hit, 1 or 2 go through and immobilize or destroy the serpent. Moving flat out gives cover, but even then, they will just do it with another dread, or with Psycannons as you close in range. A good GK player will focus all fire on those closing fragons and blast them. I have never had my fragons as an option against Gray knights. My last game against them I got to use one squad against a rhino that got close, as they lost their ride first turn. You have to hit psyflemen first, with something they can't get a shot at.

Av12 is crackable under weight of fire, but 13 up has a chance. Just Av12 will fall, but with enough 13+ mixed in your gold.

So what are getting at here people? Grey knights are either A. Defended saying they are amazing and uber. Or B. Said we could beat them. We keep going back and forth, that is not very productive.


Thus i can say is grey knights rules and raw are great 2ft range. Usally on foot and naked, attempt to best fit cover, and get that range out. In all reality the rifledreads must be ignored because you will give up to much to march through the grey knights. Leave the dreads with obivious non effective targets like a ork battle wagon. I laugh when i can roll cover save on a av14 front vech. Other then that you really must play better then your foe and make sure he is the one making mistakes. While grey knights are good at kill points they are terrible at objectives due to the average foot slogg. You hold your 1 objective and distract with the others you will find your grey knights stop placing in tournys. At least that what happened at my local game store. Blood angel player and I Air Guard beat grey knights in objectives and they dudes havent taken first or second since.

Dr. Serling wrote:

Very familiar with his army. Marching fragons up to psyflemen is damn hard, your opponent is likely to blast them off the table, even with cover. I have tried my footdar against them and I find range to be the best. Pathfinders and guardians. Scatter lasers at 3' do a lot of damage early on, and keep me out of psycannon range. Guardians still threaten if they get close. Pathfinders were my MVP, however. That many Ap1 shots at range makes a mockery of Paladins. I had my pathfinders Kill a dreadknight, 5 paladins and pin the paladins 3 times.

It's probably worth mentioning, then, that the fire dragon units have the firepike exarch with crack shot. In a mech army, that exarch isn't worth it. But in a foot army, that means starting out at just under 24", the exarch can take a BS5, str8 melta shot with no cover save at a AR12 vehicle. If he can get within 24".

Plus the avatar has a decent antitank shot, and can take them down in melee. Even Eldrad can melee down psyflemen with his witchblade since they only have str6.

But I think the primary thing in Reese's army that threatens the psyflemen is the BL/EML wraithlords. They shrug off autocannon shots and can outrange rending psycannons and can't be hurt by storm bolters at all (unless psybolt ammo).

Rangers/pathfinders are effective against MCs and marines on foot, though.

Dr. Serling wrote:. Rushing up fire dragons will NOT work, unless you can completely obscure LOS(good luck with true LOS rules. I have tried this several times, and I have never managed to get dragons anywhere close to a dread. 4 S8 shots twin linked means they usually all hit, 1 or 2 go through and immobilize or destroy the serpent. Moving flat out gives cover, but even then, they will just do it with another dread,

Really? I've had it work quite often. I also fortune two fire dragon serpents with Eldrad, which probably helps. This means that he has two threats that he must take out or lose psydreads, and they have a 75% obscurement with those squads. I've lost one before, but I've never lost both fire dragon squads in one turn before.

On turn two, I usually send the other dragon squad upstream with a small warlock squad that I use for anti-tank, also fortuned up.

I play a purifier list. I think my biggest weaknesses are a mech guard melta vet list, and eldar. Eldar are just seriously annoying with those runes, anything with a hood is annoying too, just less so.
But mech guard are always a challenge and they dont even have psychic stuff most of the time. It's a combination of having so many bodies to throw at the situation, and all of them being able to shoot down a group of purifiers pretty much single handed. Sure I might be able to take out a chimera or two with my dreads, but theres always more, most of them are in cover, and guard has lots of ways of killing my dreads. add orders on top of that, saving troops that should be running away, and dont forget about artillery like manticore's or just an outflanking vendetta or two... guard have what it takes to win against purifiers, the same is true for draigowing as long as you dont get into reserve delay shenanigans too much. Henchman spam is probably easier than anything else, since they usually end up on foot and shot to pieces.
So MSU shooting with a lot of firepower is the way to go IMO, add some psychic defense and you really have a GK challenger. Eldar players are probably all saying "Thats me!" right now.

labmouse42 wrote:

Dr. Serling wrote:. Rushing up fire dragons will NOT work, unless you can completely obscure LOS(good luck with true LOS rules. I have tried this several times, and I have never managed to get dragons anywhere close to a dread. 4 S8 shots twin linked means they usually all hit, 1 or 2 go through and immobilize or destroy the serpent. Moving flat out gives cover, but even then, they will just do it with another dread,

Really? I've had it work quite often. I also fortune two fire dragon serpents with Eldrad, which probably helps. This means that he has two threats that he must take out or lose psydreads, and they have a 75% obscurement with those squads. I've lost one before, but I've never lost both fire dragon squads in one turn before.

On turn two, I usually send the other dragon squad upstream with a small warlock squad that I use for anti-tank, also fortuned up.

To be fair, one time it was against Coteaz and he stole initiative on me, and proceeded to blast the serpents into oblivion. Even with eldrad using fortune, I still end up losing my serpents before they can get in effective range. Although another time the dude cheated and said that his turbo penetration round from the vindicare assassin got 4d6 against my serpent, and proceeded to punch right through it and wreck it first turn.

Dr. Serling wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

Dr. Serling wrote:. Rushing up fire dragons will NOT work, unless you can completely obscure LOS(good luck with true LOS rules. I have tried this several times, and I have never managed to get dragons anywhere close to a dread. 4 S8 shots twin linked means they usually all hit, 1 or 2 go through and immobilize or destroy the serpent. Moving flat out gives cover, but even then, they will just do it with another dread,

Really? I've had it work quite often. I also fortune two fire dragon serpents with Eldrad, which probably helps. This means that he has two threats that he must take out or lose psydreads, and they have a 75% obscurement with those squads. I've lost one before, but I've never lost both fire dragon squads in one turn before.

On turn two, I usually send the other dragon squad upstream with a small warlock squad that I use for anti-tank, also fortuned up.

To be fair, one time it was against Coteaz and he stole initiative on me, and proceeded to blast the serpents into oblivion. Even with eldrad using fortune, I still end up losing my serpents before they can get in effective range. Although another time the dude cheated and said that his turbo penetration round from the vindicare assassin got 4d6 against my serpent, and proceeded to punch right through it and wreck it first turn.

Cheaters dont count for games to play with becase honestly my lasguns do 4d6 armor pen to :../ man that be the day guard went from good to just plain dumb as all hell. Eldar tanks are very hearty waveserpents are all right, but the falcons never die. Freaking awesome like that.

Yesterday i played a 1,500 point game with a gk guy at my local gaming store, i was using my SW, and luckily for me by the end of the game Njal had taken out Dragio 3 paladins and an inquisitor.

LOL!

FenWulf29 wrote:Yesterday i played a 1,500 point game with a gk guy at my local gaming store, i was using my SW, and luckily for me by the end of the game Njal had taken out Dragio 3 paladins and an inquisitor.

LOL!

jaws? either way a real funny mockery

Yeah it was jaws, first time i ever saw him get annoyed when rolling 6's!


Automatically Appended Next Post:


To be fair, one time it was against Coteaz and he stole initiative on me, and proceeded to blast the serpents into oblivion. Even with eldrad using fortune, I still end up losing my serpents before they can get in effective range. Although another time the dude cheated and said that his turbo penetration round from the vindicare assassin got 4d6 against my serpent, and proceeded to punch right through it and wreck it first turn.

An army of fire dragons would have no problems killing infinite GK armies.

30 fire dragons with farseer support and maybe some d-cannons.

Course if anyone actually took plasma GK would be having trouble, too bad MELTA is CHEAPER.

I have recently lost all fear of playing my local GK guys...this is primarily because i play Chaos Daemons (and not many people in my area have Interceptors...pretty sure that Warp Quake could still make me hurt...).

My most recent game pitched my Khorne Daemons list against a Draigowing, complete with a Librarian, Dreadknight and PsyRifleman Dreadnought. Even at 3,000 points however, i outnumbered him by almost 3-to-1. Mob down any unit of paladins with enough Bloodletters and Flesh Hounds and they'll drop within a turn. I have to say, Flesh hounds ROCK against GKs (in CC anyways). They form an effective, fast tarpit to help get your marine killers into combat safely. Had winged princes swoop in and take out the Rifleman, though not before it killed my Soul Grinder (he didnt even get a kill before he died ) Skulltaker easily bested the Dreadknight in one round (!), though it was kind of an uphill battle catching up with a teleporter pack DK. And after all was said and done...i only lost 1 model to the Daemonbane rule, a Fury of Khorne Bloodcrusher.

That being said, it was a fun game, and really quite close until the last few turns. Once Kaldor Draigo died it was pretty much over. When mobbed down with 5 bloodcrushers, 3 bloodletters (Kaldor killed the other 12), a Daemon prince, and a full-strength Bloodthirster, even the GK chapter master folded like a soggy tissue.

I have to say....against Daemons (at least so far), games with GKs seem to be a very close and competitive thing. I really enjoy the games i've played. The rules, while perhaps over-powered against other races, seem to set up a nutural rivalry between the two armies that lore-wise are the most bitter of enemies.

NEVER thought is say this.....but...Well done Matt Ward..... (I hate karma )

Unless a GK player tailors to kill demons, they tend to have a hard time dealing with them.

Kain wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Kain wrote:With the grey knights you can at least be thankful for one thing. At least their venerable dreads can't get Tankhunters...they can't right?

True, there is no tankhunter upgrade available.

Oh thank Gork, if they could I don't think anybody would take vehicles anymore if there was a single psyfleman on the table.

In effect Psy ammo makes them tank hunters versus everything. Assault cannon & stormbolter. 2 Autocannons - you are in trouble anyways. I think the point of it is there will be only a limited number of them no matter what. You don't need to kill them just make sure they can't shoot. If you can aim for one dread and one transport each turn, he should have significantly reduced firepower.

juraigamer wrote:Unless a GK player tailors to kill demons, they tend to have a hard time dealing with them.

This is ironically very true. A decent FateCrusher build will ruin a GK day almost anytime.

As for other armies, the best thing is volume of fire especially if it is AP1 or 2. I think that is what makes IG so dangerous to play. With the amount of Plasma Guns and Lascannons it can be overwhelming for anyone let alone someone who typically doesn't get a lot of models on the board to begin with.

Beyond that DE can put a hurt on GK if the DE player knows what he is doing. Basically suicicde the blasterborn to get rid of any cover that the dreads use then lance the dreads to death. From then on just sit back and play keep away. Focus on one flank with everything you have so that if you get cornered you can escape. If the GK player doesn't shield the dreads then keep the trueborn back or run them as a "mini-sniper" squad, (3 man 2 DL) and then use the venoms for them as a gunship.

Most marines struggle since they can't muster enough bodies to fight back, but it is do-able.

Dr. Serling wrote:To be fair, one time it was against Coteaz and he stole initiative on me, and proceeded to blast the serpents into oblivion. Even with eldrad using fortune, I still end up losing my serpents before they can get in effective range. Although another time the dude cheated and said that his turbo penetration round from the vindicare assassin got 4d6 against my serpent, and proceeded to punch right through it and wreck it first turn.

I think some of that is bad luck, my friend.
A psycannon has a 9% to destroy a flat-out moving fortuned serpent. (when standing still)
A psydread gun has a 8.5% to destroy the same serpent. (It does have two of them)

If there were 15 psycannons/psydread autocannons you would have a reasonable chance of getting blown out the sky, but that takes a very specific GK build to pull off.

If your facing that kind of army, as someone suggested, move to falcons. They are much tougher to kill.

The problem with GK is that they have lots of varied, viable builds, so you can't really come up with a one-size-fits-all counter.

For example, many GK lists lack any melta, which can make dealing with AV 14 problematic. Unless you spam lots of psycannons (and assault cannon razorbacks) you may have trouble dealing with land raiders and leman russes.

Some Coteaz lists max out on dreads/ven dreads and skimp on a few warbands for troops...they can be easy to kill, making playing for the mission/objectives an option. The dreads are great against light-medium vehicles, but take time to kill things in +2/+3 armor.

I think the problem is the meta has changed over the years to the point where a lot of things that might give GKs trouble just aren't taken anymore. Again, something like a Leman Russ can quickly obliterate small GK squads that are knocked out of their transports while resisting the mediocre GK ranged firepower (at least against AV14). Tailoring a list to deal with common GK stuff, though, usually results in problems against other armies.

Overall, I think Space Wolves can compete with a basic long fang/razorspam-type list, while still being competitive overall. I think IG has the right tools to be effective...I just haven't seen a list that really brings them all together well. It's tough to find the right mix of sufficient, light anti-tank firepower to stop the rhino/razor horde, large blasts/torrent of fire to kill the troops quickly, all robust enough to survive a pounding from psycannons and psydreads. Oh, and you need to advance closer to them to compete for mission objectives.

Same way you kill any other Marine:

Battle Cannons.

Mattlov wrote:Same way you kill any other Marine:

Battle Cannons.

This has my approval.

Grimaldi wrote: Tailoring a list to deal with common GK stuff, though, usually results in problems against other armies.

Major Motoko Kusanagi: It's simple: Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. It's slow death.
- Ghost in the Shell 1995

Grimaldi wrote:I think Space Wolves can compete with a basic long fang/razorspam-type list, while still being competitive overall.

I think razorspam has a hard time vs GK personally. The GK weapons are excellent tearing up AV 11, and 3 psydreads means that you will be losing ~2 RBs a turn from just the dreads. Long fangs also have the weakness of no extra bodies, so one psydread shooting at them will cause wound allocation across the entire squad -- meaning its easy to lose missiles from the squad. At least BA and C:SM devs can get some more bullet catchers.

Grimaldi wrote:I think IG has the right tools to be effective....

They have some great tools. Sanctioned psykers lowering draigo's LD to 2 is just horrible as he would pelt off the board as soon as he takes 2 casualities. 3 vendettas can help shut down psydreads, and then start to work on paladins. LRBTs templates are not bad on either paladins or GKs. They cause ID on paladins, so prevent would allocation shenanigans even if they give a 2+ save, and GK squads die just as easy to battle cannons as other MEQ.

You also hit a nail on the head about multiple builds. How you face a henchmen army is totally different than how you face a purifier spam which is different than a draigowing.

Play Thousand Sons you cannot possibly lose.

As Orks, use KMB's on the Paladins (have nothing else go near them), assault the Psyfle-Dreads, and shoot at the Purifiers. Lootas can focus on fliers, or any other infantry units.

As Dark Eldar, prioritize those psyfledreads with lances or Haywire (anything as long as you prevent them from firing). Target Paladins with Lances and Blasters and never assault them, opt to fire on Purifiers instead of assaulting them, be very careful how you use your Inbuci, and remember that FNP and your two Monstrous Creatures are going to have a lot of trouble. Disintegrators will likely help a lot.

In general, watch out for Death Cult Assassins, which are ludicrously powerful when combined with Rad and Psychotrope grenades, and hammerhands. Try to get them out of their transport, and fire on them in the open, where they will simply melt away. When equipped with an Inquisitor, a Techmarine, and something else to give them that second hammerhand, they decimate most things.