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Shoota Boyz would obviously need to assault after their shooting, but that would put them in a much better position then they normally would be. Sure, boyz will die a horrble flamey death but you will kill the unit.

The GK codex requires you to pay attention and PTFG. Lazy gamers are gamers who lose. I find it stimulating as a GK player to be on my toes countering all the tricks that get thrown my way.

Purifiers armies are awesome. Thats what I play and it does amazing. 30 Purifiers,10 Purgation, Assassin, Crowe, 3 Lazerbacks and 2 Dreads (I am more and more finding that the dreads aren't as great as another 10 Purgation).

Sounds easy enough to beat right? Not very.

Had to fight VenomCannon spam (like...a metric ton of it) with Necrotoxin Razorwings.in the TSHFT tourney. Faster, more range and Night Shields.

What they came to realize is that the board isn't unlimited in size as fate would have it. Won resoundingly.

One of the things he could have done to beat me more effectively though was to fight on only one sie of the board. He went first and went for a blaanced distribution of his forces, trusting in his incredible speed to swing to where needed. I think that had he taken one side and just dared me to walk anywehre near it, he'd have been in good shape.

So one way I might say to beat Grey KNights, mine specifically, is to totally Strongside it. They either have to walk into it or never are willing.Either way they will be on the move the whole game and they're only half as scary when they are forced to move.

Just some advice I would give haven been on the giving end of the GK beat down against Dark Eldar. As it was he punished me severealy in the first two rounds but his unwillingness to give up shots early on cost him the game. Sometimes the most important shots in the game are the ones you dont take.

Like what would be a trick that you would be impressed by

What other users said about backfield threat and 48" range shooting sounds pretty dangerous.

On the plus side you do potentially have servo skulls and you could place a Strike Squad on home plate.

Deep strike seems pretty useless against GKs since you'd get shot to pieces

48" range Missiles and a Leman Russ in particular sound like a nightmare to GKs

TedNugent wrote:Nobz don't strike me as a good idea, though, because if you were a smart player you would focus them with your AC Dreads as soon as they were done with a successful combat.

Getting the nobs into assault with the purifiers is the issue (and one that can't be ignored).

If the Ork player somehow manages to achieve this, then the Nobs will most likely decimate the purifiers (assuming the PK nobs are still in).

I wouldn't do that personally - I'd just shoot at them.

Assaulting Psydreads with trukk boyz turns out to be a *really* good tactic, though. You'd face the same issue of getting the trukks to them, but they make easier targets than most GK units - so the Ork player would have to hope for the dreads to focus on the heavier stuff.

Runes of Warding to put a hamper on all that Psychic shenanigans GKs love to toss out.

Fortune on fast moving Grav tanks, plus holo-fields, to survive those shooting phases.

Run away from them hiding inside of unkillable transports until turn 5-6, then dump out near the end of the game and kill a couple of KP for the win.

Contrary to popular belief, you CAN run away from them for the entire game... you just can't expect to kill anything until turn 5-6. 3 tricked out Falcons, troops in serpents that start in reserve, Eldrad plus another Fortune Seer very much CAN avoid GKs for an entire game, especially if all of the tanks have Star Engines, allowing them to clear 36" per turn.

It's not pretty nor clean, but 2 Kill Points to 0 Kill Points is still a win.

TedNugent wrote:

loota boy wrote:As an ork player, i'm not really that scared of purifiers. Why? Because even though people are always screaming that purifiers can trounce both boyz and nobz in cc with either cleansing flames or force weapons, it isn't true. A standard seven (against grey knights, i will often spring for an eighth) man nob squad can handle a ten-man purifier squad IF (big if) they get the charge. Reason for this is there aren't as many force attacks in that squad as you think there are. 4 of those guys have psycannons, so they get no force weapons, and the knight of flame just has a thunderhammer, which is no change from a sarg with a pf. The nobz will be whittled down to a standard 5 or 6 man squad, which in turn can handle a 5 man purifier squad IF (anouther big if) they get the charge. After that, they're kinda gone, but they can still harass stuff. The main thing about forceweapons that you have to remember is that besides insta-deaths, they still hit on 4's, wound on 4's, and have to eat through a 5++ cybork save. One purifier has only 2 attacks, so you need about three of them to drop one nob. (2 attacks hit 50%, one hit. One hit wounds 50%, .5 wounds. Gets through save 66%, 2/3 of .5 is about .33, times 3 = one dead nob.)

Okay, guy.

Let's see here. You're saying that you're not scared of Purifiers because even though they can butcher your standard troop choice, if you pick an elite unit that is only capable of CC combat and incapable of any kind of point-efficient shooting, if and only if you get the charge, you can wipe out a Purifier Squad (e.g. if 2 or 3 PKs get to swing at I1).

I don't see how you aren't seeing the problems with this, but to start, why don't you go ahead and make a list that's composed only of 7 man Nob squads. Get the picture? See how this is already an issue? What are you proposing, a list composed entirely of Nobs, or a list composed of Boyz that never reach CC? That's ridiculous. How care you going to tune such a list for competitive play?

And better yet, what are you going to do if the following happens? Each 10 man Purifier Squad is wearing 4 Psycannons.

4 Psycannons in heavy mode, which they probably will be if you're flinging Nobs at them, since Nobs are only good at CC and cannot outshoot Purifiers, do this to a Battlewagon with KFF in one turn of shooting:

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting_vehicles.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;4;4;4;7;4;;;;;;;;;;;1;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;14;4;;1;&v=0

Are we beginning to see a problem here?

If that Battlewagon suffers a destroyed result, and your Nobs are forced to footslog and subjected to one single round of shooting from AC Dreads:

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;3;4;4;8;4;;;;;1;;;;;;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;2;4;6;5;;;;1;;&v=0

Or, if your Nobs have just completed a successful assault phase, you are now talking about also having them being subjected to the above.

Not scared of Purifiers. Try making a list and playing them.

Ok, wow. I was having such a nice morning until now. Frankly, I don't even know why i'm responding to you. I guess because my point was that purifiers are not completely untouchable by orks. I see a lot of people who just assume "purifiers have force weapons, so they auto-win against anything with more than one wound. Like nobz." I'd go in deeper, but I don't really feel like I have any obligation to give you a full response when you acted so rudely. I would've been happy to talk if you were a bit more courteous and left the attitude at home, but right now, i'd rather not waste my time.

loota boy wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

loota boy wrote:As an ork player, i'm not really that scared of purifiers. Why? Because even though people are always screaming that purifiers can trounce both boyz and nobz in cc with either cleansing flames or force weapons, it isn't true. A standard seven (against grey knights, i will often spring for an eighth) man nob squad can handle a ten-man purifier squad IF (big if) they get the charge. Reason for this is there aren't as many force attacks in that squad as you think there are. 4 of those guys have psycannons, so they get no force weapons, and the knight of flame just has a thunderhammer, which is no change from a sarg with a pf. The nobz will be whittled down to a standard 5 or 6 man squad, which in turn can handle a 5 man purifier squad IF (anouther big if) they get the charge. After that, they're kinda gone, but they can still harass stuff. The main thing about forceweapons that you have to remember is that besides insta-deaths, they still hit on 4's, wound on 4's, and have to eat through a 5++ cybork save. One purifier has only 2 attacks, so you need about three of them to drop one nob. (2 attacks hit 50%, one hit. One hit wounds 50%, .5 wounds. Gets through save 66%, 2/3 of .5 is about .33, times 3 = one dead nob.)

Okay, guy.

Let's see here. You're saying that you're not scared of Purifiers because even though they can butcher your standard troop choice, if you pick an elite unit that is only capable of CC combat and incapable of any kind of point-efficient shooting, if and only if you get the charge, you can wipe out a Purifier Squad (e.g. if 2 or 3 PKs get to swing at I1).

I don't see how you aren't seeing the problems with this, but to start, why don't you go ahead and make a list that's composed only of 7 man Nob squads. Get the picture? See how this is already an issue? What are you proposing, a list composed entirely of Nobs, or a list composed of Boyz that never reach CC? That's ridiculous. How care you going to tune such a list for competitive play?

And better yet, what are you going to do if the following happens? Each 10 man Purifier Squad is wearing 4 Psycannons.

4 Psycannons in heavy mode, which they probably will be if you're flinging Nobs at them, since Nobs are only good at CC and cannot outshoot Purifiers, do this to a Battlewagon with KFF in one turn of shooting:

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting_vehicles.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;4;4;4;7;4;;;;;;;;;;;1;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;14;4;;1;&v=0

Are we beginning to see a problem here?

If that Battlewagon suffers a destroyed result, and your Nobs are forced to footslog and subjected to one single round of shooting from AC Dreads:

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;3;4;4;8;4;;;;;1;;;;;;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;2;4;6;5;;;;1;;&v=0

Or, if your Nobs have just completed a successful assault phase, you are now talking about also having them being subjected to the above.

Not scared of Purifiers. Try making a list and playing them.

Ok, wow. I was having such a nice morning until now. Frankly, I don't even know why i'm responding to you. I guess because my point was that purifiers are not completely untouchable by orks. I see a lot of people who just assume "purifiers have force weapons, so they auto-win against anything with more than one wound. Like nobz." I'd go in deeper, but I don't really feel like I have any obligation to give you a full response when you acted so rudely. I would've been happy to talk if you were a bit more courteous and left the attitude at home, but right now, i'd rather not waste my time.

Agreed. Everyone in this thread from grey knight loves/worshipers and meta hookers to the casual gamer must all be polite in this thread. Here we are searching for possible things we can look at for in games. But i do take advantage of much of what is discussed in here and as a result you can either take peoples good free advice or leave it, but please dont cry/mad/defend something. Things we are not doing is math hammering our favorite unit in favored positions where on paper they win. Now back to suggestions, and starting as such i will add mine.

I have taken on regularly a grey knight purfier spamm with my orks *drum roll* and i have won all the games. I do play a kan wall with double KFF and loota support. I have found that the lootas are excellent counters for those dreads, and my boyz/kanz can take the purfier firemake all their pentrations worthess due to cover saves. Not saying that games were close, they were very close and a lot of fun was had. Things when running a pure foot sloggin punch army that i do to trick up my GK player is turn two i typically run back out side his range. He will scoot forward to pop more shots into me; i suffer casualties and then i charge in with my mobs with waghh. The kanz typicall shot up the purfiers to "soften" them. My GK buddy likes to combat squad his troops into 5 man units with 1 being psy cannon heavy and the other being hailbered heavy, and as a result when i charge i am often swining at haliberds first. I will lose about 11 boyz average to clensing flame. Then i will lose 4-8 from stabbing. Swinging back i wipe his squad because it was only a 5 man unit and i have two power claws in it. (mek is a second). Thus take away from this, if they are a 5 man squad spec a boy horde will happily take them.

I think the reason why he wasn't taking you seriously was because you were advocating taking out a 300 point unit that your opponent could have 6 of by means of about 400 points of elite that you probably can't reuse.

This concept might be great for having a Nob squad drop a purifier squad once. It's not a sustainable means of taking on an entire purifier army, and, even if it is, I can't imagine it being especially effective against anything else.

daedalus wrote:I think the reason why he wasn't taking you seriously was because you were advocating taking out a 300 point unit that your opponent could have 6 of by means of about 400 points of elite that you probably can't reuse.

This concept might be great for having a Nob squad drop a purifier squad once. It's not a sustainable means of taking on an entire purifier army, and, even if it is, I can't imagine it being especially effective against anything else.

Agreed, that its not sustainable because nobs typically eat bullets all day, every day the second they killed something.

Nobs in my opinion are some of the most versitile melee units that one can have. A full nob squad by any means can take on any unit pufires fall under that as well - and nob armies exist to, while extremely effective, but low model count. View nobs as a deathwing list or similar termie spamm in terms of pts to model and model count.

I read through this thread, and noticed that there was a distinct lack of 2 things I feel are important to any discussion about beating grey knights.
1-General posts along the lines of "unit A hard counters unit B in a vacuum".
2-Little to no mention of Coteaz lists, which I think are probably the most deadly out there. So heres a 2k coteaz army for you guys.

Coteaz-100

3x 5 purifiers-149
Halberd, 2 psycannons, hammer, justicar with halberd

3x razorback-51
Twin linked heavy bolters, psybolts, searchlights

10 GKSS-250
Justicar with hammer, 2 psycannons, psybolts

Rhino-41
Searchlight

3x 6 henchmen-70
2 henchmen with boltguns, 3 deathcults, 2 crusaders.

3x razorback-86
Twin linked assault cannon, psybolts, searchlight

2x 3 acolytes-12
3 laspistol chainsword

2x Chimera-56
Heavy flamer, searchlight

3x dreadnought-135
2 twin linked autocannons, psybolts.
2000

Eidolon wrote:I read through this thread, and noticed that there was a distinct lack of 2 things I feel are important to any discussion about beating grey knights.
1-General posts along the lines of "unit A hard counters unit B in a vacuum".
2-Little to no mention of Coteaz lists, which I think are probably the most deadly out there. So heres a 2k coteaz army for you guys.

Coteaz-100

3x 5 purifiers-149
Halberd, 2 psycannons, hammer, justicar with halberd

3x razorback-51
Twin linked heavy bolters, psybolts, searchlights

10 GKSS-250
Justicar with hammer, 2 psycannons, psybolts

Rhino-41
Searchlight

3x 6 henchmen-70
2 henchmen with boltguns, 3 deathcults, 2 crusaders.

3x razorback-86
Twin linked assault cannon, psybolts, searchlight

2x 3 acolytes-12
3 laspistol chainsword

2x Chimera-56
Heavy flamer, searchlight

3x dreadnought-135
2 twin linked autocannons, psybolts.
2000

I also support this. Funny thing is i am putting together a henchmen army myself, and i dislike the Death cult assassin models in general so i am going to be doing alot of conversion work. However yes, transport spamm with guns is the most feared and honestly i dont know to deal with that other to hope you can pop his transports faster.

Voodoo wrote:I play a purifier list. I think my biggest weaknesses are a mech guard melta vet list, and eldar. Eldar are just seriously annoying with those runes, anything with a hood is annoying too, just less so.
But mech guard are always a challenge and they dont even have psychic stuff most of the time. It's a combination of having so many bodies to throw at the situation, and all of them being able to shoot down a group of purifiers pretty much single handed. Sure I might be able to take out a chimera or two with my dreads, but theres always more, most of them are in cover, and guard has lots of ways of killing my dreads. add orders on top of that, saving troops that should be running away, and dont forget about artillery like manticore's or just an outflanking vendetta or two... guard have what it takes to win against purifiers, the same is true for draigowing as long as you dont get into reserve delay shenanigans too much. Henchman spam is probably easier than anything else, since they usually end up on foot and shot to pieces.
So MSU shooting with a lot of firepower is the way to go IMO, add some psychic defense and you really have a GK challenger. Eldar players are probably all saying "Thats me!" right now.

Some GK armies have a hard time vs. shooty IG. However, GK also have Dreadknight. If you have 2 or 3 in the army with teleporters able to scout or outflank, IG will have a hard time to get rid of them.

daedalus wrote:I think the reason why he wasn't taking you seriously was because you were advocating taking out a 300 point unit that your opponent could have 6 of by means of about 400 points of elite that you probably can't reuse.

This concept might be great for having a Nob squad drop a purifier squad once. It's not a sustainable means of taking on an entire purifier army, and, even if it is, I can't imagine it being especially effective against anything else.

Killing ALL of them isn't necessary to win, i would point out. So that isn't a true issue. So much of Warhammer is figuring out how to pick your fights whenever you can.

Jancoran wrote:

daedalus wrote:I think the reason why he wasn't taking you seriously was because you were advocating taking out a 300 point unit that your opponent could have 6 of by means of about 400 points of elite that you probably can't reuse.

This concept might be great for having a Nob squad drop a purifier squad once. It's not a sustainable means of taking on an entire purifier army, and, even if it is, I can't imagine it being especially effective against anything else.

Killing ALL of them isn't necessary to win, i would point out. So that isn't a true issue. So much of Warhammer is figuring out how to pick your fights whenever you can.

That is warhammer... people who lose a lot say they had no choice in the fight.

what i have found with my DA vs GK that works (as someone else put it DA are like playing 40k on hard modem vs GK its Extreme hard mode lol)

this is my standard DW list

Bob
TH/SS

2 DW termy units
3xTH/SS, 2 LC, cyclone
Land raider x2
extra armour
3 x Typhoon
mm (all seperate)

with this list it truly is uphill, but mostly due to the GK players i have actually played, those dreads will ALWAYS get a shake on my raiders limiting my firepower and god forbid i actually let them get a clean shot on my speeders, the rest of the GK force i treat the same as Deamons (funny that) and backpeddle away from them in my raiders, but the large amount of str8+ i have deals with paladins fairly easily, depending on the size of units and wound alocation shenanigans, i usually dont fire
most of my multi shot weapons (HB or frags) as this will limit my casualties.

I dont bother taking Ravenwing at the moment as unfortunately they are not as good as vanilla ones and cost alot more, this is not the fault of GK of course lol, but what must be said for RW is there best at range 24" and this is where GK rock too, but there cheaper and can hurt me more.

Green wing list is suprisingly good but that is because i rock an ass ton of plasma.. i mean its obscene, but this can be done better by vanilla too so its not just DA

So just to sum up what i have found has worked.

Str8-9
Ap2 (not 3, 2 is better)
Do not always fire all your weapons, sometimes getting those 1 or 2 garenteed kills is better than the wound alo shenanigans that allow them to take less wounds.
Blast weapons are next to useless vs a player that spaces properly (i take plas cans so my oponents do this often) but this isnt restricted to GK
plasma plasma plasma..guns

well i hope i helped, didnt see much "how to beat GK" in this how to beat GK thread

Formosa wrote:what i have found with my DA vs GK that works (as someone else put it DA are like playing 40k on hard modem vs GK its Extreme hard mode lol)

this is my standard DW list

Bob
TH/SS

2 DW termy units
3xTH/SS, 2 LC, cyclone
Land raider x2
extra armour
3 x Typhoon
mm (all seperate)

with this list it truly is uphill, but mostly due to the GK players i have actually played, those dreads will ALWAYS get a shake on my raiders limiting my firepower and god forbid i actually let them get a clean shot on my speeders, the rest of the GK force i treat the same as Deamons (funny that) and backpeddle away from them in my raiders, but the large amount of str8+ i have deals with paladins fairly easily, depending on the size of units and wound alocation shenanigans, i usually dont fire
most of my multi shot weapons (HB or frags) as this will limit my casualties.

I dont bother taking Ravenwing at the moment as unfortunately they are not as good as vanilla ones and cost alot more, this is not the fault of GK of course lol, but what must be said for RW is there best at range 24" and this is where GK rock too, but there cheaper and can hurt me more.

Green wing list is suprisingly good but that is because i rock an ass ton of plasma.. i mean its obscene, but this can be done better by vanilla too so its not just DA

So just to sum up what i have found has worked.

Str8-9
Ap2 (not 3, 2 is better)
Do not always fire all your weapons, sometimes getting those 1 or 2 garenteed kills is better than the wound alo shenanigans that allow them to take less wounds.
Blast weapons are next to useless vs a player that spaces properly (i take plas cans so my oponents do this often) but this isnt restricted to GK
plasma plasma plasma..guns

well i hope i helped, didnt see much "how to beat GK" in this how to beat GK thread

this isnt a how to beat grey knights. This is weakness thread. You find what they suck at dealing with. Beating them is up to you. Also props for running DA against Grey Knights and more props for doing it with death wing. If anything Dark Angels terminator spamm isn't all that it use to be.

Load up on Plasma weapons and they will die. A generic Marine army can rock face on them something terrible. Take a couple of Dev squads with Missile Launchers to pop Transports, Typhoons to mess with the Dreads and then load up on Plasma in the rest of the army. Sgts with Plasma Pistols, squads with Plasmagun and Plasma Cannon. Trust me, they'll die long before you do if there is any terrain on the board at all. Just sit back and light them up like a christmas tree. Especially if you get to go first.

You need a target first.

I wish there was room, graphics utilities and all that other happy horse nonsense on here to illustrate points, but my Tau who are overpowered in nearly everyway, win by simply not being there when the worst of it comes.

So if the focus is on beating them in this thread, I think we need more in depth thought than just "light them up with plasma from afar". I dont think we should work on the assumption that the GK General wont recognize his peril. I mean, are we really going to work on the assuymption that they will just line up for that? That they wont outflank you? That their land raider will go down to your plasma?

I'm just saying...

So, AP 1,2 or 3 weapons........ i play nids, what are these?
Oh, wait!
We have bio-plasma, which comes in at 180 points on a fex lol.


But on a serious note, the main weakness is the fact they are points heavy.
So, small elite army and they drop just as easily as normal marines.


As a nid player though ive found a few tricks, but most rely on either having a lash-whip, a near-by harpy or stealers.

While a tyrant with guard is a nice idea, charging a unit with FW's isnt so much so.
Granted that shadow makes it risky to use anything psychic near it, its still a possibility.
So, warriors gain a use again!
Cheap, nasty warriors with bonesword and whip.

Harpies are simply just for multi assaults, since they half the enemies initiative and give you the 1st shot.

But by far the best unit for them? stealers, lots and lots of stealers. (this is usually my cure-all unit though)
High enough initiative to strike 1st, enough attacks to bury a GK unit and rending to make sure things go your way.

With multiple stealer units the broodlords are amazing and really do come into thier own.
Aura means each broodlord drops enemy units -1 LD within a 12" bubble, this does stack so makes it nasty (and ensures no FW are used for ID'ing him)
Gaze however, this is fun.
Since the enemy has reduced LD, you can stop an enemy from attacking that turn, so pick the most deadly one in the unit and get him BTB with the broodlord and watch him sit on his arse and do nothing.

Stealers allways have been a strong unit, but they really do shine against GK now as they can acually outfight them.

Also, Ymgarl stealers work just as well, but are a bit more costly and lack a broodlord.
However, they DS into a piece of terrain without scatter and can move, run and assault as normal on the turn they come in.
So, sit them in a bit of terrain the GK will be going past and jump straight into assault when you need to.



Thats pretty much it for killing, but there are 2 more things you can use for randomness.

1: If someone like draigo is going to be there, bring in deathleaper and drop his LD by D3 for the whole game. (lasts until leaper dies, but he does not have to be on the board)

2: Doom of malantai.
Works best when you have broodlords near by since he can get leach working really well and alas, it ignores armour.
Also, cataclysm is amusing since it heals the doom after you bomb them with a S1-10 AP1 pieplate.
So, against draigowing the doom usually earns a few hundred points and does severe damage when he comes in.
Surviving though, can have 10 wounds and allways has his 3++ so its possible.
Keep in mind that the dooms leach works at the start of the enemies shooting aswell, so you get 2x leach and a cataclysm before they can hurt him.

Wait a second, is The Broodlord a Character? if not he cannot be independently targeted in a combat...

He used to be, and some folk still remember him as such.

These days he's just a squad sarge for stealers.

cormadepanda wrote:

Jancoran wrote:

Killing ALL of them isn't necessary to win, i would point out. So that isn't a true issue. So much of Warhammer is figuring out how to pick your fights whenever you can.

That is warhammer... people who lose a lot say they had no choice in the fight.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

A lot of times, it IS essential to kill or at least waylay as many of the enemy troop choices as possible, god forbid you wind up needing to cope with 5 objectives or something absurd like that.

high strength low ap blast wepons

wuestenfux wrote:

Voodoo wrote:I play a purifier list. I think my biggest weaknesses are a mech guard melta vet list, and eldar. Eldar are just seriously annoying with those runes, anything with a hood is annoying too, just less so.
But mech guard are always a challenge and they dont even have psychic stuff most of the time. It's a combination of having so many bodies to throw at the situation, and all of them being able to shoot down a group of purifiers pretty much single handed. Sure I might be able to take out a chimera or two with my dreads, but theres always more, most of them are in cover, and guard has lots of ways of killing my dreads. add orders on top of that, saving troops that should be running away, and dont forget about artillery like manticore's or just an outflanking vendetta or two... guard have what it takes to win against purifiers, the same is true for draigowing as long as you dont get into reserve delay shenanigans too much. Henchman spam is probably easier than anything else, since they usually end up on foot and shot to pieces.
So MSU shooting with a lot of firepower is the way to go IMO, add some psychic defense and you really have a GK challenger. Eldar players are probably all saying "Thats me!" right now.

Some GK armies have a hard time vs. shooty IG. However, GK also have Dreadknight. If you have 2 or 3 in the army with teleporters able to scout or outflank, IG will have a hard time to get rid of them.

And if they have Dreadknights, they have less Psyflemen to counter other armies. Grey Knights have lots of nice units, but people really need to stop pretending they have everything in one list.

Crimson-King2120 wrote:high strength low ap blast wepons

This doesnt work if they spread out, if your oponent spreads out properly he can limit your hits to 1-2 models, now a good scatter may get 3 (woot!!) but thats if your lucky, now if he doesnt spread out.. then you are totally correct and punish the git for it

There are some decent opinions and solid theoryhammer going on around here - but serious lack of experience, wild guessing and some stupid preconceptions are creating not very accurate image of the grey knights. At first I would like to say that apart from several (but unfortunately very crucial) aspects grey knights are solid book, which offers variety of playable builds - you can play strike squads, purifiers, terminators, paladins, foot list with grey-knights, inquisition - all solid and beatable armies, but if you want to abuse hard - you can create some really ridiculous lists and combos.

So now I would like to list some popular opinions about grey-knights weaknesses which are false:

1) They are just regular marines and die just like regular marines

In case you havent slept over whole 5th edition you know, that apart from death-stars, marines inside the transports are always plan B and are used to hold/clear objectives and to finish survivors after tanks.

2) Pack lot of low ap blasts and plasma

Almost the same reason as in the first point (you need to kill those razorbacks and dreads first - they are causing most damage) + infantry has cover almost every time and because of the wound alocation - few plasma guns shooting with whole squads will in practice inflict less casualties than shooting without them - but we can realisticaly expect that 6th edition will change this.

3) They are expensive compared to the regular marines

There is no such thing as simply expensive or simply bad stats - all what is importand is if the unit is priced well compared to its abilities and grey knights not only are, but you also do not pay for your sergeants and you can get their weapon upgrades almost for free.

4) Psyriflemens are too overpowered

Yes, they are indeed underpriced - but do you think that you are loosing vs. grey knights only because their dreadnoughts are about 10 - 15 points cheaper than they should be?


And now some real strengths:

1) They are seriously resistant to the supression because of fortitude.

2) In 95% of situations every unit in their army (from any FOC) will be a threat to your units - things like psybolt ammo, psycanons, grenades and hammerhand offers great flexibility and vastly increases ability to harm wide range of targets

3) While most other armies are paying around 1/3 or even 1/2 of overall army points for their troops - grey knights can achieve similiar or even better capabilities in objective missions and in offensive output of their troops for around 1/4 or even less of their overall army points, giving them more points for other FOC options.

4) Grey knights can achieve "Imperialguardlike" target saturation in their lists - wall of razorbacks + dreadnoughts + spam of identical troop choices gives no obvious targets to shoot at - in such enviroment even things like stormraven can work at top level because everything else is a threat too and is affected by same type of weaponry.

5) Grey knights seriously ignore rules and archetypes which were working for years. Some things which grey knights can do and all other armies simply cannot : when they affect toughness value it counts toward determining of the instant death, when they buff their strentgh bonus is applied before other modifiers, force weapons for troop choices where everyone can activate their own regardless of how many psychic powers per turn they can actually cast, their sergeants have similiar stats as other marine armies but are for free and they can take similiar weaponry (even better) like other marine armies for significantly less or for free, stackable psychic powers, scoring units starting at 12 points? really?!?


So what does that all mean? Yes, average point value for unit/tank is higher than in other armies - but it does not matter, because grey knights does not pay for many things other armies must for and they can get many scoring units for much less - which gives them many points to invest into hammer units (purifiers, dreadnoughts, death cults...) and powerfull support characters (coteaz, grand master, librarian...) and equipment (grenades, grenades and yes - more grenades) - so in the end, they are not really that expensive. Tell me, how many armies can invest around 300-400 points into support characters without breaking a sweat?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also since i started I should also type something about (currently) most successfull grey knight army - and that is coteaz henchmen spam + dreads + other support HQ + death cults + PORC (pile or random crap). It is not by all means only competitive grey knight list - events were won by completely different ones - purifiers, strike squads spam and heck even foot list with dreadknights...but by my guess coteaz + henchmen was in about 70% of winning builds. Now where the fun part? If you actually spent time on my last post you can pretty much guess, but lets elaborate...

So, lets build us some competitive grey knight force shall we? Lets say 1800 points so we need to "make" choices (lol, not really)...

So we need some troops and HQ:

Coteaz is 100 points and since most events have around 2 objectives for troops every game and if we play by rulebook 2/3 of games played on objectives - lets try to make this strong aspect of our army - lets add 5-6 MSU henchmens in psybacks (well lets take "just" 5, we will increase our objective capabilities later) and that is 315 points with psybacks + searchlights.

We have our core - HQ + 5 troop choices + 5 AV 11 boxes + 15 twin-linked str6 BS4 shots at 36 inches range for 415 points - not bad huh?

Since we have many points left, lets add more tech and support - second HQ. I guess many of you are now shouting LIBRARIAN, LIBRARIAN - but nah, lets be even MORE ridiculous, well add grandmaster + incinerator + rad and psycho grenades - thats 210 of pure gold, you maybe need to try it to understand it.

Now lets add something more mandatory - 3x psyriflemen-dreads with search lights - thats 408 points

1033 points so far - and even now I am getting scared...

We also really need some death cults - 6x death cult + 3x crusader - 135 points

...And now their ride - lets get more ridiculous, lets take storm raven while remaining competitive shall we? - 205 points + searchlihgts, there is really no need to invest more points here. We also kept one place empty for Coteaz if his second hammerhand would be beneficial.

1374 points now - and on the table it certainly looks more like 1500-1600 points army already.¨

So what now? We have dakka, we can close combat, we have many scoring options - but we can get even better, we have many points left - lets take something which can benefit from grand-strategy to give us even more options, something flexible, always usefull - which can perhaps help us against hordes and give us even more target saturation - lets take purifiers.

Ten purifiers + 4 psycanons + 4 halberds + 2 hammers where one is mastercrafted in rhino with searchlights and dozer blades - 344 points, this unit can easily switch rhino for stormraven should need arise, coteaz + death cults can then take rhino if you need sister-like counter-charge unit.

1718 points so far - since I have chosen 1800 as the limit, I dont have better idea than to add another psyback henchmen unit for total of 9 possible scoring units!!!

For spare points we have many viable options - we can buy psy ammon for stormraven, some melta on henchmen if current metagame demands it, switch some upgrades on purifiers - all depending on your current metagame.

Think about this sample army - 1800 points. 11 AV 11/12 vehicles, 7-9 scoring units (or some nice buffs on hammer infantry), 2 capable "death-stars" (cults + grenades + possible hammerhand will totaly obliterate any other deathstar), LOT of dakka - this army, whilst it is strongest in objective missions, is able to table many opponents. It has it weaknesess, but it has way more strengths to offer (and lot of variability in playing)- and thats the fun part of any grey knight list - you can get tons of troops so cheap, that you will have spare points for anything you like, anything to suit your metagame.

Also on a side-note. Someone posted henchmen build in this thread too and it contained assault-canon razorbacks with henchmen - that is really NOT a good idea in such a type of list. It gives obvious target amongst razorbacks - which likes to sit back with dreadnoughts anyway, so you can very well be even out of range. Assault-canon psybacks are nice pick in purifier-oriented armies where you ride everything in the middle of the table to make best use of your spammed 24 inch shooting. In coteaz build, in most situations anyway, you will castle in your deployment area with psybacks so your dreadnoughts will always have cover and so that they cannot be assaulted - 5-6 psybacks hugging around 3 dreads is not a nice view, you really do not know what to shoot at - dreads own you at range, but they have cover, you can shoot at stormraven or rhino, but psybacks have good shooting too - excelent saturation, until you play against similiar grey-knight list several times you really dont know much about how powerfull grey-knights can be...

cormadepanda wrote:

Formosa wrote:what i have found with my DA vs GK that works (as someone else put it DA are like playing 40k on hard modem vs GK its Extreme hard mode lol)

this is my standard DW list

Bob
TH/SS

2 DW termy units
3xTH/SS, 2 LC, cyclone
Land raider x2
extra armour
3 x Typhoon
mm (all seperate)

with this list it truly is uphill, but mostly due to the GK players i have actually played, those dreads will ALWAYS get a shake on my raiders limiting my firepower and god forbid i actually let them get a clean shot on my speeders, the rest of the GK force i treat the same as Deamons (funny that) and backpeddle away from them in my raiders, but the large amount of str8+ i have deals with paladins fairly easily, depending on the size of units and wound alocation shenanigans, i usually dont fire
most of my multi shot weapons (HB or frags) as this will limit my casualties.

I dont bother taking Ravenwing at the moment as unfortunately they are not as good as vanilla ones and cost alot more, this is not the fault of GK of course lol, but what must be said for RW is there best at range 24" and this is where GK rock too, but there cheaper and can hurt me more.

Green wing list is suprisingly good but that is because i rock an ass ton of plasma.. i mean its obscene, but this can be done better by vanilla too so its not just DA

So just to sum up what i have found has worked.

Str8-9
Ap2 (not 3, 2 is better)
Do not always fire all your weapons, sometimes getting those 1 or 2 garenteed kills is better than the wound alo shenanigans that allow them to take less wounds.
Blast weapons are next to useless vs a player that spaces properly (i take plas cans so my oponents do this often) but this isnt restricted to GK
plasma plasma plasma..guns

well i hope i helped, didnt see much "how to beat GK" in this how to beat GK thread

this isnt a how to beat grey knights. This is weakness thread. You find what they suck at dealing with. Beating them is up to you. Also props for running DA against Grey Knights and more props for doing it with death wing. If anything Dark Angels terminator spamm isn't all that it use to be.

true it isnt what it used to be, but thats mainly because we cant spam the living crap outa land raiders lol... still think land raiders should be 200pts ... -_- no one will ever agree though

If LR's should be 200, then BW should be 100

And on it goes...

they are fine at 250. It's not like they don't get spammed anyway

Last game i played the guy had 5 of them. AV 14 isn't my favourite thing to cut through with Orks, or even with DE.