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Slavery was all the rage back then too. Was it excusable?

Your theory on Christianity is incorrect. I highly doubt Jesus ever heard of Plato. He was a Jewish rabbi from the sticks.

What path? You don't change animal instinct and nature unless you change the animal. Unless he proposed a way to genetically turn us into ants he didn't do gak.

How did a thread about George Bush being decapitated in GoT turn into a debate about communism?

Coolyo294 wrote:How did a thread about George Bush being decapitated in GoT turn into a debate about communism?

Through the power of discussion!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dæl wrote:I never claimed Platos Republic was communist, simply that he advocated what you call "brainwashing," which I called socialisation to remove self interest. Hence why my view of Plato's Republic is less unsavoury than yours, I wouldn't mind being in a totalitarian regime if those in charge had no concept of self interest and did every act for the public good.

I just wanted to point out that Plato's communism wasn't to be equated with Marx's communism.

And we're talking about a government which can decide which child to feed and which to let die. Which music can be played in public, and which can't (and a death penalty at that too). A Republic that forces children to go with there parents to war...

It's very unsavory. It isn't clear if Plato's Republic is supposed to be red as a political project, or as a fable to illustrate how the human mind works by comparing it to a City. All that is sure is that if it was a political project, then Plato was nuts.

Coolyo294 wrote:How did a thread about George Bush being decapitated in GoT turn into a debate about communism?

Why the magic of Friendship of course!

Frazzled wrote:Slavery was all the rage back then too. Was it excusable?

Your theory on Christianity is incorrect. I highly doubt Jesus ever heard of Plato. He was a Jewish rabbi from the sticks.

What path? You don't change animal instinct and nature unless you change the animal. Unless he proposed a way to genetically turn us into ants he didn't do gak.

Greek and Roman slavery was a lot more excusable than the slavery of Africans that our cultures engaged in.

A lot of theologists think there are parallels between Christianity and Greek fables and social customs, after all the Bible was written by men rather than Jesus himself.

Memes can be as important as genes in peoples actions.

Coolyo294 wrote:How did a thread about George Bush being decapitated in GoT turn into a debate about communism?

We're an ambitious lot.

dæl wrote:
Greek and Roman slavery was a lot more excusable than the slavery of Africans that our cultures engaged in.

You have to be more precise. Each ancient greek city had their own version of slavery : Lacedemonia (the kingdom of Sparta) was completly bat-gak dumb, slaves were 'communised', and were to answer to all order from all citizen. If a slave was ordered to be at 2 different places by 2 different citizen, at the same time, and couldn't (obviously), he was to be killed. Also, 'slave' basically refered to anyone not born out of a noble spartiate.

In Athen, a slave was closer to a family member that didn't have as much right as the citizen. He was garanteed 2 meals, housing and clothing.

In Rome, you have to specify the timeline. At some points, slavery was horrible, at others, it was a lot more agreable. for exemple, a law made it that, in the case of a citizen's murder, all slaves in earshot of that citizen's scream were to be executed.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

dæl wrote:
Greek and Roman slavery was a lot more excusable than the slavery of Africans that our cultures engaged in.

You have to be more precise. Each ancient greek city had their own version of slavery : Lacedemonia (the kingdom of Sparta) was completly bat-gak dumb, slaves were 'communised', and were to answer to all order from all citizen. If a slave was ordered to be at 2 different places by 2 different citizen, at the same time, and couldn't (obviously), he was to be killed. Also, 'slave' basically refered to anyone not born out of a noble spartiate.

In Athen, a slave was closer to a family member that didn't have as much right as the citizen. He was garanteed 2 meals, housing and clothing.

In Rome, you have to specify the timeline. At some points, slavery was horrible, at others, it was a lot more agreable. for exemple, a law made it that, in the case of a citizen's murder, all slaves in earshot of that citizen's scream were to be executed.

I wasn't aware of such idiocy, cheers for the heads up. I knew vaguely of the Athenian type, and knew that at certain points in Roman history slaves could own property and even other slaves. Didn't Spartan slaves had to be able to write and such as it was considered unSpartan to do such girly things?

ROman slavery was..shall we say...anybody can wear the belt. Think the only time when slaves were freed in mass was the legions raised just by slavery alone...think it was 5 legions. 20 yrs service deal. The recruitment was aimed specificaly at the slaves

d-usa wrote:I feel the same way about pure unregulated capitalism. Looks good on paper, but greed and the human element make it impossible to actually function.

That's true, but just as a true communist state (according to Marx) has never really existed, a true 100% capitalist state has never existed either, as far as I know. Most western nations are a mix of capitalism and socialism, including the US.

dæl wrote:

Pacific wrote:
If you are a true socialist, then there is no state!

Marx said that the ultimate extension of communism is that, after a totalitarian state has procured enough of everything and there is no want, the state can dissolve. After all, conflict is about possession of resources, and if we all have enough then why would we need to fight? So governance, police, everything is gone.

Arguments regarding the practicalities of this aside, this was Marx's ultimate view of the 'end of history' for communism. Except that the likes of Trotsky/Lenin were quick to bury that bit of his writing under the carpet as it would have meant a reduction in their executive power, and as well all know it is very easy for pigs to become men..

As such you could say, in the strictest sense of the term, a true communist state has never existed.

Well the two options for ownership currently are private and public, I think things should be publicly owned and run for the benefit of the many rather than the few. I totally agree that a true communist state has never existed or even come close. Maybe one day someone will get curious and just try it as a social experiment.

And Fraz currently I agree with you, we are socialised to compete for limited opportunities, but Plato raised the point in Republic that people could be taught from a infant to think without self interest, but you would have to start with infants.

And d-usa, you raise an entirely valid point, we are seeing the start of the movement against capitalism and it will only get bigger, louder and less reasonable as years go on.

It will definitely be interesting. I'm not sure calling it a movement against capitalism is really the most accurate way to describe it though, since as far as I know, no first world western nation has a completely capitalist system. I've hear people in the US say "capitalism had its chance," with the implication being that we should switch to socialism, but the truth is it really didn't, no more than communism did. A better way to put it might be a movement against the current system and its problems, not all of which are the fault of its capitalistic elements.

I just think it's a little bit shortsighted to blame capitalism for the current economic problems, since pure capitalism isn't what most countries have. Using capitalism as a scapegoat seems primarily to indicate a failure to identify the real issues.

Greek and Roman slavery was a lot more excusable than the slavery of Africans that our cultures engaged in.

***horsegak. Spartacus and the slave rebellions prove otherwise. Even Britain and the US South didn’t have gladiatorial contests for sport. (We have since rectified that with football. )

A lot of theologists think there are parallels between Christianity and Greek fables and social customs, after all the Bible was written by men rather than Jesus himself.

***Except of course the Jesus freak parts weren’t.

Memes can be as important as genes in peoples actions

NO, they can't. Utopia/heaven/paradise are all in heavenly propertion for a reason. They don't exist here.

dæl wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:

dæl wrote:
Greek and Roman slavery was a lot more excusable than the slavery of Africans that our cultures engaged in.

You have to be more precise. Each ancient greek city had their own version of slavery : Lacedemonia (the kingdom of Sparta) was completly bat-gak dumb, slaves were 'communised', and were to answer to all order from all citizen. If a slave was ordered to be at 2 different places by 2 different citizen, at the same time, and couldn't (obviously), he was to be killed. Also, 'slave' basically refered to anyone not born out of a noble spartiate.

In Athen, a slave was closer to a family member that didn't have as much right as the citizen. He was garanteed 2 meals, housing and clothing.

In Rome, you have to specify the timeline. At some points, slavery was horrible, at others, it was a lot more agreable. for exemple, a law made it that, in the case of a citizen's murder, all slaves in earshot of that citizen's scream were to be executed.

I wasn't aware of such idiocy, cheers for the heads up. I knew vaguely of the Athenian type, and knew that at certain points in Roman history slaves could own property and even other slaves. Didn't Spartan slaves had to be able to write and such as it was considered unSpartan to do such girly things?

Yeah, in general, the only reason slavery in ancient Rome, Greece, and in other nations of antiquity is "more excusable" is because it's been a lot longer since it was practiced. While at certain times in certain places slaves might have been treated reasonably well, there were certainly other times and places when ancient slavery was just as brutal as the more recent form of African slavery.

Hordini wrote:
It will definitely be interesting. I'm not sure calling it a movement against capitalism is really the most accurate way to describe it though, since as far as I know, no first world western nation has a completely capitalist system. I've hear people in the US say "capitalism had its chance," with the implication being that we should switch to socialism, but the truth is it really didn't, no more than communism did. A better way to put it might be a movement against the current system and its problems, not all of which are the fault of its capitalistic elements.

I just think it's a little bit shortsighted to blame capitalism for the current economic problems, since pure capitalism isn't what most countries have. Using capitalism as a scapegoat seems primarily to indicate a failure to identify the real issues.

I agree there has been no true capitalist state, however a lot of the problems in the world do stem from the capitalist "accumulation of personal wealth ahead of any social responsibility" mindset. Hence why we do regulate companies to not dump waste and to give employees some rights, if we didn't things would be horrible for the majority of people.

Frazzled wrote:

Memes can be as important as genes in peoples actions

NO, they can't.

Sure they can, otherwise men would be killing each other everytime a pretty girl walked into the room. All of our social norms are passed down with socialisation, they aren't genetic.

dæl wrote:
Sure they can, otherwise men would be killing each other everytime a pretty girl walked into the room. All of our social norms are passed down with socialisation, they aren't genetic.

Jails are full or men who killed men over women (or over other men too I guess). Your premise is false.

dæl wrote:I wasn't aware of such idiocy, cheers for the heads up. I knew vaguely of the Athenian type, and knew that at certain points in Roman history slaves could own property and even other slaves. Didn't Spartan slaves had to be able to write and such as it was considered unSpartan to do such girly things?

A 'slave', to spartiates, was anyone born in a village of Lacedemonia, but not born to one of the citizen. Or anyone kidnapped. The citizenry of Sparta would ritually declare war against their own slaves every couple of years, and part of the 'graduation' for young spartiates was to go hunt down some slaves and kill them.

I doubt the average Laconian knew how to read. Or even that 'reading' existed. They probably just lived in constant fear of being killed by one of their lords.

Yeah, Sparta was crap. Their only redeeming value was that they were somewhat more liberal with their women, in the sense that they allowed them to play sports, and that 'being bitchy' was considered a quality in their women, so they didn't beat them up when they talked back (which is were the expression 'giving a laconic answer' comes from).

Jackal wrote:However, i cant stand journalism as there is rarely a non-biased story or one that has not been blown out of proportion.
Lets face it, if they print something as it actually is, rather than a different take on it, it would not sell.

There was a murder a town across from us that you may have heard of involving an aspiring footballer and his 15 year old girlfreind being stabbed to death.
]This story
A guy I row with daily (as in the sport, not arguing) knows one of the armed response team that turned up at the house, and according to him the media reports are massively toned down.
For example the "injury he sustained" according to the article was, according to the policeman, due to him trying to cut off his fingers, before being tazed.

So there are some cases where stuff is toned down.

Frazzled wrote:

dæl wrote:
Sure they can, otherwise men would be killing each other everytime a pretty girl walked into the room. All of our social norms are passed down with socialisation, they aren't genetic.

Jails are full or men who killed men over women (or over other men too I guess). Your premise is false.

That's hardly the norm though is it.

dæl wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

dæl wrote:
Sure they can, otherwise men would be killing each other everytime a pretty girl walked into the room. All of our social norms are passed down with socialisation, they aren't genetic.

Jails are full or men who killed men over women (or over other men too I guess). Your premise is false.

That's hardly the norm though is it.

Thats because police, courts, and guns lots of guns dear god so many joyous guns!

So you're proposing utopia relies upon a machine gun?

Your name's not Pol Pot is it?

Meh, I don't choose not to murder every bloke in the room every time a pretty girl walks in because of the prospect of machine guns or the police.

Also, no on the Pol Pot, if I were to kill off people based on their intelligence I wouldn't be killing off the clever ones.

Frazzled wrote:Thats because police, courts, and guns lots of guns dear god so many joyous guns!

So you're proposing utopia relies upon a machine gun?

Your name's not Pol Pot is it?

Nah, real life being stable relies on guns. (being well distributed)

Utopias relies on making humans something less than human so that they can't realize how screwed up 'utopia' really is.

Frazzled wrote:

What path? You don't change animal instinct and nature unless you change the animal. Unless he proposed a way to genetically turn us into ants he didn't do gak.

Absolutely, the only way it could ever work is a) A complete abundance of resources. Marx stipulated this, but even with modern agriculture and industry the results don't even come close. Perhaps the only way would be with some kind of Star Trek-esque replicator that can literally manufacture things out of thin air - oh and we wouldn't have enough space for each other either, so some kind of split-universe where we can each inhabit and be lords of our own reality. So, probably no time soon. B) Fundamentally alter the nature of not only ourselves, but truly take that apple offered by the snake and leave the Garden of Eden forever. And by that I mean completely separate our consciousness from the rest of the natural world around us. The pulls within society, those that make us altruistic towards our fellow man, or want to horde all the firewood for ourselves, have been engrained in not only us but complex forms of life for an awfully long time. You could say they are intrinsically part of the evolution of life - despite our sapience, these factors continue to pull us one way or another, with players on the stage helping to push us one way or another throughout history.

But if we were able to separate our consciousness from the more bestial aspects of our nature, what would remain? Are the two in fact exclusive elements? Will we ever reach a state of true enlightenment, and of pure reason, or will it all disappear in a moment of madness? Have other sapient beings come into being on other worlds; has the galaxy already been witness to a million mushroom clouds expanding on a million separate occasions, the unavoidable and ultimate extension of Zug the bipeds first instinct to pick up a big rock and smash his fellow over the head with it, so he could nick his food?

Anyway, what were we talking about again?

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Thats because police, courts, and guns lots of guns dear god so many joyous guns!

So you're proposing utopia relies upon a machine gun?

Your name's not Pol Pot is it?

Nah, real life being stable relies on guns. (being well distributed)

Utopias relies on making humans something less than human so that they can't realize how screwed up 'utopia' really is.

Or alternatively, lots of guys with lots of guns telling you what to do. Doesn't sound like paradise to me.

Socialization does involve us learning decent and ethical modes of behavior. Most of us want to think of ourselves as good people, and have checks on our actions based much more on our sense of self-worth and social consequences than on fear of violent repurcussions. Most of us, anyway. Of course the 24/7 news cycle means that we are more aware of all the violent exceptions, even though violent crime has been declining for a long time.

Frazzled wrote:

A lot of theologists think there are parallels between Christianity and Greek fables and social customs, after all the Bible was written by men rather than Jesus himself.

***Except of course the Jesus freak parts weren’t.

The Golden Rule goes back at least to the Greeks (or even the Egyptions), though it's also prominent in the Torah, and Jesus espouses it twice, in Matthew and Luke. Most of the moral teachings in Christianity predate Christianity itself.

Mannahnin wrote:Socialization does involve us learning decent and ethical modes of behavior. Most of us want to think of ourselves as good people, and have checks on our actions based much more on our sense of self-worth and social consequences than on fear of violent repurcussions. Most of us, anyway. Of course the 24/7 news cycle means that we are more aware of all the violent exceptions, even though violent crime has been declining for a long time.

Even counting the wars of the last century, we are phenomenally less violent then we were let's say, 1000 years ago. All the stats :

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

Mannahnin wrote:Socialization does involve us learning decent and ethical modes of behavior. Most of us want to think of ourselves as good people, and have checks on our actions based much more on our sense of self-worth and social consequences than on fear of violent repurcussions. Most of us, anyway. Of course the 24/7 news cycle means that we are more aware of all the violent exceptions, even though violent crime has been declining for a long time.

Frazzled wrote:

A lot of theologists think there are parallels between Christianity and Greek fables and social customs, after all the Bible was written by men rather than Jesus himself.

***Except of course the Jesus freak parts weren’t.

The Golden Rule goes back at least to the Greeks (or even the Egyptions), though it's also prominent in the Torah, and Jesus espouses it twice, in Matthew and Luke. Most of the moral teachings in Christianity predate Christianity itself.

And none of them have anything to do with the Greeks (unless you count the Phillistines of course).
Ancient Buddha say, when you butt heads with a barbarian tribe that talks to burning plants, get out of their way.

Frazzled wrote:
And none of them have anything to do with the Greeks (unless you count the Phillistines of course).
Ancient Buddha say, when you butt heads with a barbarian tribe that talks to burning plants, get out of their way.

Well you have the Pandora/Eve thing blaming women for all mans ills, and the stolen fire/fruit of the tree of knowledge. Cronus acts similarly to Herod with the killing of children when told he would be overthrown. They both have a Flood, but pretty much every ancient culture did as there was one, an Island just south of Crete fell into the sea (some believe this is where the myth of Atlantis comes from).

dæl wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
And none of them have anything to do with the Greeks (unless you count the Phillistines of course).
Ancient Buddha say, when you butt heads with a barbarian tribe that talks to burning plants, get out of their way.

Well you have the Pandora/Eve thing blaming women for all mans ills, and the stolen fire/fruit of the tree of knowledge. Cronus acts similarly to Herod with the killing of children when told he would be overthrown. They both have a Flood, but pretty much every ancient culture did as there was one, an Island just south of Crete fell into the sea (some believe this is where the myth of Atlantis comes from).

And none of that has anything to do with some pissant semetic tribe that got its rear kicked by every other semetic tribe in North Africa until it started talking to burning plants and got all uppity.

Sorry. Of course maybe the Greeks got their ideas from them...

But back to your crazed concept that ancient slavery was better and that people can be made to understand and live utopia from the barrel of an AK, eh Comrade?

Frazzled wrote:
But back to your crazed concept that ancient slavery was better and that people can be made to understand and live utopia from the barrel of an AK, eh Comrade?

Certain types were.

I never claimed that utopia should be at the barrel of a gun, that wouldn't be very utopic now would it.

dæl wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
But back to your crazed concept that ancient slavery was better and that people can be made to understand and live utopia from the barrel of an AK, eh Comrade?

Certain types were.

I never claimed that utopia should be at the barrel of a gun, that wouldn't be very utopic now would it.

But you can't have people doing what you want them to do unless you make them do it.
Come on Marxist you know this. Your hero estolled the need of the state to enforce make it so.

Not really, you motivate people with things other than sticks, you forget the large majority of the world has bugger all of its profits.