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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

I think people are used to seeing Sean Bean die by now...
What was more surprising was how long he managed to survive this time...

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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





htj wrote:
Yeah, I was having difficulty remembering a time when news wasn't distributed by business or propaganda.


It's got to be one or the other, I'm a socialist and think everything should be state owned, everything except the media.



And IIRC the Levenson Inquiry was set up because News Corp were breaking the law by phone tapping rather than reporting lies.
   
Made in at
[DCM]
The Main Man






Beast Coast

dæl wrote:
htj wrote:
Yeah, I was having difficulty remembering a time when news wasn't distributed by business or propaganda.


It's got to be one or the other, I'm a socialist and think everything should be state owned, everything except the media.




If you think everything should be state owned, then I'm not sure socialist is really the most accurate term for your political stance. Even with the media being non-state owned, I'd say that's a lot closer to communism than socialism. The state you describe would be a pretty difficult one to achieve.

   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





Hordini wrote:
dæl wrote:
htj wrote:
Yeah, I was having difficulty remembering a time when news wasn't distributed by business or propaganda.


It's got to be one or the other, I'm a socialist and think everything should be state owned, everything except the media.




If you think everything should be state owned, then I'm not sure socialist is really the most accurate term for your political stance. Even with the media being non-state owned, I'd say that's a lot closer to communism than socialism. The state you describe would be a pretty difficult one to achieve.


Yeah, I'm pretty much a full blown Marxist, but without the revolution bits, the problem is when you say you're a Marxist people look at you funny. So socialism as a means to communism as a means to utopia would suit me just fine.
   
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[DCM]
The Main Man






Beast Coast

dæl wrote:
Hordini wrote:
dæl wrote:
htj wrote:
Yeah, I was having difficulty remembering a time when news wasn't distributed by business or propaganda.


It's got to be one or the other, I'm a socialist and think everything should be state owned, everything except the media.




If you think everything should be state owned, then I'm not sure socialist is really the most accurate term for your political stance. Even with the media being non-state owned, I'd say that's a lot closer to communism than socialism. The state you describe would be a pretty difficult one to achieve.


Yeah, I'm pretty much a full blown Marxist, but without the revolution bits, the problem is when you say you're a Marxist people look at you funny. So socialism as a means to communism as a means to utopia would suit me just fine.



Okay, that makes sense. People look at you weird if you say you're a Marxist in the UK? I figured people wouldn't react that way as much over there. I've met a decent number of self-identified communists/Marxists in Austria, but they were mostly university students or of student age, and we were usually in private or with other people of similar age when we talked about it, so I'm not really sure how older Austrians would react (I'm guessing it could go either way, depending on a multitude of factors). I think people tend to react a bit more neutrally if someone says they're a Marxist, since that's a more specific. If someone just says they're a communist, it's a bit more ambiguous since there are lot of different flavors, many of which are rightly perceived very negatively.

   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





Well this is the country where the Daily Mail has more readers than the Independent, and that gave News Corp so much power they thought that

1. they were above the law
and 2. they effectively decided who won general elections

As you say the student population are generally more leftist but there are a sizeable chunk of young conservatives. And we don't have any form of left in parliament (apart from the Greens).

Just have a look through some of the Off Topic threads where Capitalism is questioned and people jump to it's defence and claim it responsible for every type of progress in human civilisation and then claim Communism just sticks people in gulags, and has been proven not to work because Stalin.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

dæl wrote:
Hordini wrote:
dæl wrote:
htj wrote:
Yeah, I was having difficulty remembering a time when news wasn't distributed by business or propaganda.


It's got to be one or the other, I'm a socialist and think everything should be state owned, everything except the media.




If you think everything should be state owned, then I'm not sure socialist is really the most accurate term for your political stance. Even with the media being non-state owned, I'd say that's a lot closer to communism than socialism. The state you describe would be a pretty difficult one to achieve.


Yeah, I'm pretty much a full blown Marxist, but without the revolution bits, the problem is when you say you're a Marxist people look at you funny. So socialism as a means to communism as a means to utopia would suit me just fine.


Wow you just proved everything McCarthy said was true. I'm impressed.
To quote the immortal bard: "have you no decency sir!"

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Swindon, Wiltshire, UK

Person calmly explains non-violent political views that are different to Frazz's, ergo he has no decency.
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





Frazzled wrote:Wow you just proved everything McCarthy said was true. I'm impressed.
To quote the immortal bard: "have you no decency sir!"


This is true, I often hide under beds.

But I do keep my clothes on, which is relatively decent.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Corpsesarefun wrote:Person calmly explains non-violent political views that are different to Frazz's, ergo he has no decency.


youngins
Look up on the magical mystery box you're staring at: Joseph McCarthy, and "have you no decency"

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Swindon, Wiltshire, UK

My apologies, my knowledge of foreign historical politicians is obviously lacking...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/18 11:16:17


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Corpsesarefun wrote:My apologies, my knowledge of foreign historical politicians is obviously lacking...


Now you're edumaketed more gooder!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

"Have you no decency" was a question asked OF McCarthy, pointing out that he in fact had no decency, and shaming the rest of Congress into realizing that the Un-American Activities Committee was in fact an un-American witchhunt. I know about McCarthyism and I cannot figure out what your post meant, Fraz.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/18 11:29:17


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Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

Corpsesarefun wrote:My apologies, my knowledge of foreign historical politicians is obviously lacking...

IIRC McCarthy was the nutcase who started a witch hunt in American society for Communists even imprisoning some of them.
He was a total looney and frankly a bit of a dick...

Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. 
   
Made in gb
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Classified

Tauzor wrote:
purplefood wrote:I can't comment on your job or how it may or may not have skewed your view but I wouldn't go as far as to say all news reported it utter bs...
Especially in the UK, AFAIK there are rules on reporting outright lies.

ah right thats why we are wasting millions on the inquiry .... of course the rules...

I presume you mean the Leveson enquiry, the subject of which is the use of illegal means to obtain information by the media, not the fabrication of news stories.



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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Mannahnin wrote:"Have you no decency" was a question asked OF McCarthy, pointing out that he in fact had no decency, and shaming the rest of Congress into realizing that the Un-American Activities Committee was in fact an un-American witchhunt. I know about McCarthyism and I cannot figure out what your post meant, Fraz.


The post meant a communist hiding under the guise of being a socialist, it so fits the nice 50s arguments.

Frazzled has to throw in the "no decency" as it effectively destroyed the McCarthy wave, is the opposite of the above arguments, and is a really really cool bit of theater. (it also means Frazzled is having difficulty directly linking youtube right now). You have to educate the youngins somehow...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
purplefood wrote:
Corpsesarefun wrote:My apologies, my knowledge of foreign historical politicians is obviously lacking...

IIRC McCarthy was the nutcase who started a witch hunt in American society for Communists even imprisoning some of them.
He was a total looney and frankly a bit of a dick...


Exactly except way more than just a bit of one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/18 11:36:06


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Roaring Reaver Rider






Warwickshire

But.. but everybody loves the communists right?


And if you say marxist here most don't know who marx was hence the dodgy looks.


Nom

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/18 18:01:57


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. Louis, Missouri

purplefood wrote:I think people are used to seeing Sean Bean die by now...
What was more surprising was how long he managed to survive this time...

Spoiler:
He lasted through most of Goldeneye!

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Suffolk, where the Aliens roam.

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Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





He lasted a fair while in Sharpe too.
   
Made in gb
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

dæl wrote:
htj wrote:
Yeah, I was having difficulty remembering a time when news wasn't distributed by business or propaganda.


It's got to be one or the other, I'm a socialist and think everything should be state owned, everything except the media.
.


If you are a true socialist, then there is no state!

Marx said that the ultimate extension of communism is that, after a totalitarian state has procured enough of everything and there is no want, the state can dissolve. After all, conflict is about possession of resources, and if we all have enough then why would we need to fight? So governance, police, everything is gone.

Arguments regarding the practicalities of this aside, this was Marx's ultimate view of the 'end of history' for communism. Except that the likes of Trotsky/Lenin were quick to bury that bit of his writing under the carpet as it would have meant a reduction in their executive power, and as well all know it is very easy for pigs to become men..

As such you could say, in the strictest sense of the term, a true communist state has never existed.

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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

A true communist state cannot exist while humans exist. It can only exist in paradise.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

I feel the same way about pure unregulated capitalism. Looks good on paper, but greed and the human element make it impossible to actually function.
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





Pacific wrote:
If you are a true socialist, then there is no state!

Marx said that the ultimate extension of communism is that, after a totalitarian state has procured enough of everything and there is no want, the state can dissolve. After all, conflict is about possession of resources, and if we all have enough then why would we need to fight? So governance, police, everything is gone.

Arguments regarding the practicalities of this aside, this was Marx's ultimate view of the 'end of history' for communism. Except that the likes of Trotsky/Lenin were quick to bury that bit of his writing under the carpet as it would have meant a reduction in their executive power, and as well all know it is very easy for pigs to become men..

As such you could say, in the strictest sense of the term, a true communist state has never existed.


Well the two options for ownership currently are private and public, I think things should be publicly owned and run for the benefit of the many rather than the few. I totally agree that a true communist state has never existed or even come close. Maybe one day someone will get curious and just try it as a social experiment.

And Fraz currently I agree with you, we are socialised to compete for limited opportunities, but Plato raised the point in Republic that people could be taught from a infant to think without self interest, but you would have to start with infants.

And d-usa, you raise an entirely valid point, we are seeing the start of the movement against capitalism and it will only get bigger, louder and less reasonable as years go on.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/19 15:14:28


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

d-usa wrote:I feel the same way about pure unregulated capitalism. Looks good on paper, but greed and the human element make it impossible to actually function.

Yep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
dæl wrote:
Pacific wrote:
If you are a true socialist, then there is no state!

Marx said that the ultimate extension of communism is that, after a totalitarian state has procured enough of everything and there is no want, the state can dissolve. After all, conflict is about possession of resources, and if we all have enough then why would we need to fight? So governance, police, everything is gone.

Arguments regarding the practicalities of this aside, this was Marx's ultimate view of the 'end of history' for communism. Except that the likes of Trotsky/Lenin were quick to bury that bit of his writing under the carpet as it would have meant a reduction in their executive power, and as well all know it is very easy for pigs to become men..

As such you could say, in the strictest sense of the term, a true communist state has never existed.


Well the two options for ownership currently are private and public, I think things should be publicly owned and run for the benefit of the many rather than the few. I totally agree that a true communist state has never existed or even come close. Maybe one day someone will get curious and just try it as a social experiment.

And Fraz currently I agree with you, we are socialised to compete for limited opportunities, but Plato raised the point in Republic that people could be taught from a infant to think without self interest, but you would have to start with infants.

And d-usa, you raise an entirely valid point, we are seeing the start of the movement against capitalism and it will only get bigger, louder and less reasonable as years go on.

So you really are a true commuist, yet you're typing on an evil running capitalist dog computer. Love it!

Plato was an idiot and probably liked boys in the wrong way.
Show me a utopian and I'll show you either a: 1) hopped up idiot who fell off Life's short bus and should not be allowed to breed; or 2) someone else waiting for this to start so he can take over.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/19 15:22:02


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





Frazzled wrote:So you really are a true commuist, yet you're typing on an evil running capitalist dog computer. Love it!

Plato was an idiot and probably liked boys in the wrong way.
Show me a utopian and I'll show you either a: 1) hopped up idiot who fell off Life's short bus and should not be allowed to breed; or 2) someone else waiting for this to start so he can take over.


Well my computer was made in china, but yeah it is still part of the fruits of capitalism, it was (rather uncapitalisticly) the only choice though.

Plato definitely liked little boys, ask Aristotle, but that was all the rage back then, so it's excusable. But he was quite a clever chap and I'm inclined to think Christianity borrowed some of his ideas about the Form of Good and his allegory of the cave.

Someone who wants utopia right here, right now is something of an idiot, however someone who offers up a path that may take centuries but will eventually result in a world of true equality and meritocracy is probably not a hundred percent right, but at least thinking in the right sort of terms and should have their ideas listened to.
   
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Richmond, VA

Did someone complain? I mean there's practically no likeness, you have to be looking to see bush to see him on a spike.

They should have just never mentioned it.

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Montreal

Frazzled wrote:Plato was an idiot and probably liked boys in the wrong way.
Show me a utopian and I'll show you either a: 1) hopped up idiot who fell off Life's short bus and should not be allowed to breed; or 2) someone else waiting for this to start so he can take over.


Plato's communism isn't communism in the modern sense. The Republic included classes, owned goods, and a shadowy governments that made laws without pretending to make it for the people. What was ''communised'' was the relations between the military/police/nobility. That particular class of citizens didn't own goods, or have family, or did anything that wasn't for the Republic. They would kill, die and breed when, where and with whom the philosopher-kings told them to.

Basically, it would've been a totalitarian community where the army/police is completly brainwashed and instrumentalized, the general population kept in a state of happy ignorance, and the shadowy government of philosopher-kings decides everything and makes up mythical stories to make the population obey their edicts.

IIRC, there was one attempt to instore such a government in a german city, in the 1600s. It lasted about a year, and didn't end well... I'll have to go a play a bit of Total War Stainless Steel to figure out the name of the city... oh chucks

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Kovnik Obama wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Plato was an idiot and probably liked boys in the wrong way.
Show me a utopian and I'll show you either a: 1) hopped up idiot who fell off Life's short bus and should not be allowed to breed; or 2) someone else waiting for this to start so he can take over.


Plato's communism isn't communism in the modern sense. The Republic included classes, owned goods, and a shadowy governments that made laws without pretending to make it for the people. What was ''communised'' was the relations between the military/police/nobility. That particular class of citizens didn't own goods, or have family, or did anything that wasn't for the Republic. They would kill, die and breed when, where and with whom the philosopher-kings told them to.

Basically, it would've been a totalitarian community where the army/police is completly brainwashed and instrumentalized, the general population kept in a state of happy ignorance, and the shadowy government of philosopher-kings decides everything and makes up mythical stories to make the population obey their edicts.

IIRC, there was one attempt to instore such a government in a german city, in the 1600s. It lasted about a year, and didn't end well... I'll have to go a play a bit of Total War Stainless Steel to figure out the name of the city... oh chucks


I never claimed Platos Republic was communist, simply that he advocated what you call "brainwashing," which I called socialisation to remove self interest. Hence why my view of Plato's Republic is less unsavoury than yours, I wouldn't mind being in a totalitarian regime if those in charge had no concept of self interest and did every act for the public good.
   
 
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