Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Grey Templar wrote:Or rather putting in levels of ID and EW.

Level 1 ID = weapons that are double your Toughness

Level 1 Eternal Warrior = Immune to Level 1 ID, instead suffer 2 wounds from double your toughness wounds. This is standard on all ICs and MCs.


Level 2 ID = Activated Force Weapons

Level 2 ID = Immune to Level 1 and Level 2 ID, instead suffer 2 wounds from Level 2 and Level 1 instant death wounds. This would be things that have EW currently.

Levels will make life for the gamers more complicated. I thought GW would put an emphasis on new players?

Grey Templar wrote:I don't understand why FnP needs a nerf. Is it that OP?

For Dark Eldar its practically the only thing they have as far as saves go.

For BAs it's kinda their thing. Mathematically its a conditional 2+ save for their Assault Marines and it comes from ICs that can get sniped out.


Why does it need nerfing?

It doesn't, BA do. 100 points for army wide FNP and FC is regarded as pretty ott by many. Not everyone can charector snipe you know, or have the capacity to single out an MEQ IC in CC.

Grey Templar wrote:When spammed, Autocannons are murder against Chimeras and lower armor(while also being decent against infantry)

Only way to cheaply do that is with Hydras. Otherwise I really can't see them being effective at all. You've got to hit, 6s to penetrate, probably a 4+ cover, and 5s and 6s to glance. As a mech guard player, I've never had them worry me...

Depends on other changes. If they make things simpler elsewhere it will be fine to add some additional levels of detail.

I think the issue is that Matt Ward and his contemporaries have been handing FnP out like it was candy, and now that it's absolutely everywhere, it has to be nerfed.

Also, judging from the rumours so far, it looks like the game is moving more towards Warhammer 40k: Fantasy in Space. Which just totally turns me off from the game as it is.

Random charge distance is the major offender for me so far. So what I want most of all is for that to not be true.

Grey Templar wrote:I don't understand why FnP needs a nerf. Is it that OP?

For Dark Eldar its practically the only thing they have as far as saves go.

For BAs it's kinda their thing. Mathematically its a conditional 2+ save for their Assault Marines and it comes from ICs that can get sniped out.


Why does it need nerfing?


Cover I agree with, or at least we need a comprehensive definition of cover in the rule book.

They are handing out too many FNP, Dark Eldar I can accept but not Blood Angels and other books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wuestenfux wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Or rather putting in levels of ID and EW.

Level 1 ID = weapons that are double your Toughness

Level 1 Eternal Warrior = Immune to Level 1 ID, instead suffer 2 wounds from double your toughness wounds. This is standard on all ICs and MCs.


Level 2 ID = Activated Force Weapons

Level 2 ID = Immune to Level 1 and Level 2 ID, instead suffer 2 wounds from Level 2 and Level 1 instant death wounds. This would be things that have EW currently.

Levels will make life for the gamers more complicated. I thought GW would put an emphasis on new players?

You should have a look at Fantasy. 40K is simple compared to Fantasy.

It's not hard to be simpler than a convoluted mess.

Fafnir wrote:It's not hard to be simpler than a convoluted mess.

well said

kronk wrote:It seems like we have had this thread a few times already...

Anyway, I want to see more game types and fewer groupies. Really, it gets so hard to complete a game with all of the groupies hanging around...

do you mean people watching, or are you making a joke about ladies loving the 40k?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wrakkar wrote:

martin74 wrote:Psychic powers change. I like the idea of random powers, like WHFB spells. Also, a certain number to hit with the dice roll, not, well, I have leadership 10 so, this is going to happen, only two chances for it not to (5/6, 6/6).

Feel No Pain. Doesn;t make sense how a model with 5+ save can have a 4+ FNP. I think FNP needs to be more on a 5+, less than 50% chance of a save.

Good point, I can't imagine any surgeon saying this:

Guardsman: "Will he make it, dock?"
Surgeon: "Well, his arm, spleen, liver, stomach, small intestine, bladder, spine and most of his skull were blown apart when he was hit with that high-explosive anti-tank krak missile. He lost about 80% of his blood before we got to him, shrapnel has embedded most of his body, and all I have is a bandage, some cream, and a staple gun... I'd say his chances are about 50/50."

feel no pain doesn't give you saves from ID only normal wounds. so a T3 getting hit with a krak doesn't get a FNP roll.

Fafnir wrote:It's not hard to be simpler than a convoluted mess.

I disagree with your statement. Fantasy is not a mess.

phoenixrisin wrote:

kronk wrote:It seems like we have had this thread a few times already...

Anyway, I want to see more game types and fewer groupies. Really, it gets so hard to complete a game with all of the groupies hanging around...

do you mean people watching, or are you making a joke about ladies loving the 40k?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wrakkar wrote:

martin74 wrote:Psychic powers change. I like the idea of random powers, like WHFB spells. Also, a certain number to hit with the dice roll, not, well, I have leadership 10 so, this is going to happen, only two chances for it not to (5/6, 6/6).

Feel No Pain. Doesn;t make sense how a model with 5+ save can have a 4+ FNP. I think FNP needs to be more on a 5+, less than 50% chance of a save.

Good point, I can't imagine any surgeon saying this:

Guardsman: "Will he make it, dock?"
Surgeon: "Well, his arm, spleen, liver, stomach, small intestine, bladder, spine and most of his skull were blown apart when he was hit with that high-explosive anti-tank krak missile. He lost about 80% of his blood before we got to him, shrapnel has embedded most of his body, and all I have is a bandage, some cream, and a staple gun... I'd say his chances are about 50/50."

feel no pain doesn't give you saves from ID only normal wounds. so a T3 getting hit with a krak doesn't get a FNP roll.

Sorry, I should have wrote "Soldier" instead of "guardsman", that would make it more applicable. But my point still stands

Less Invulnerable saves - and less army-wide Power Weapons

No changes to cover save mechanics

IMHO both Missile Launchers and Lascannons should be better against AV, but I'm not sure if that might require army-specific Codex tweaks to make it happen.

PS, IMO if you're going to have scaled Eternal Warrior and Instant Death, it should be the Opposite - because of the fact that an army has army-wide Force Weapons

e.g.

Level 1 ID = Activated Force Weapons

Level 1 Eternal Warrior = Immune to Activated Force Weapons

Level 2 ID = Weapons that are double your Toughness

Level 2 EW = immune to Level 2 ID

Level 3 EW = Immune to Level 1 and 2 ID

Or better yet, give Librarians a different Force weapon from GKs, so that there is some actual opportunity cost attached to it and you can make it fulfill it's intended function (being a counter to ICs and multi-wound models).

IMO this game needs to have more in the way of hard counters. This is why Invulnerable saves are a stupid mechanic for most models. Also, there should be no Assault penalty for assaulting into cover.

Wrakkar wrote:

Sorry, I should have wrote "Soldier" instead of "guardsman", that would make it more applicable. But my point still stands

No, it doesn't, because no models in this game short of ICs have T5 and FNP. So what you're talking about is for instance Mad Dok Grotsnik or Chaplain Cassius, which doesn't work. A good example would be the story in the Ork Codex about when Ghazghkull Thraka got his skull blown apart and brain fragments were leaking everywhere and Mad Dok Grotsnik fixed him up with an Adamantium Skull before he became the Prophet of the WAAAGH. He was fine because he is T5 like a boss (or in this case, a Warboss, which also get FNP saves).

The game designers are fortunately not stupid enough to give a unit with T5 a FNP save.

and it comes from ICs that can get sniped out.

When did everyone get vindicare assassins? I'd love an orky one!

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

and it comes from ICs that can get sniped out.

When did everyone get vindicare assassins? I'd love an orky one!

An orky one with BS 2. Great value!

wuestenfux wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

and it comes from ICs that can get sniped out.

When did everyone get vindicare assassins? I'd love an orky one!

An orky one with BS 2. Great value!

Just get six

Wrakkar wrote:

martin74 wrote:Psychic powers change. I like the idea of random powers, like WHFB spells. Also, a certain number to hit with the dice roll, not, well, I have leadership 10 so, this is going to happen, only two chances for it not to (5/6, 6/6).

Feel No Pain. Doesn;t make sense how a model with 5+ save can have a 4+ FNP. I think FNP needs to be more on a 5+, less than 50% chance of a save.

Good point, I can't imagine any surgeon saying this:

Guardsman: "Will he make it, dock?"
Surgeon: "Well, his arm, spleen, liver, stomach, small intestine, bladder, spine and most of his skull were blown apart when he was hit with that high-explosive anti-tank krak missile. He lost about 80% of his blood before we got to him, shrapnel has embedded most of his body, and all I have is a bandage, some cream, and a staple gun... I'd say his chances are about 50/50."

Feel no pain doesn't work for Guardsmen once a weapon is past strength 5 anyway. So your example of a krak missile is invalid. Heavy bolter would have been a better example or hell a pulse rifle. Your 50/50 chances end one step above that.

GK Nerf,
Twin-linked weapons re-write (the current rules work but dont make much sense)
Wound allocation fix
Instant Kill fix

I'd like more control over reserves, players with different missions, force organisation flexibility + being able to shoot heavy weapons out of vehicles that have moved



Would be funny to see a rule that meant passangers in an opened top vehicle have to roll to see if they held on whilst their vehicle went flat out (aka see passangers get thrown from their vehicles and die)

because no models in this game short of ICs have T5 and FNP.

Deathguard? Plague Bearers? Or did I miss something more relevant in a previous post?

Actually Plague Marines are a 4(5) on toughness. Its like the toughness on Bikers so it can be gotten around. Plaguebearers on the other hand are a true T5 and get FNP and laugh at Krak Missiles...all for 15 points a model. Guess it was intended to offset the Daemon Princes in the Daemon Codex having to pay 60 points for wings...

That, and the fact that that's about all that they have.

Fafnir wrote:That, and the fact that that's about all that they have.

They aren't that bad if they get tied up by a MC..But yeah they really don't have much compared to the other two besides durability, unless you are using an epidemus list against a footslogger army.

Lances that can reliably damage vehicles.

That'd be nice.

I would like a complete re-write focusing on the gameplay of 40k.
Rather than the continued mutilation of WHFB game mechanics and patching them up to try to make a rule set that sort of fits sometimes ....

As reguards to Instant Death and Eternal Warrior.

Whats wrong with weapon damage(Strenght alternative ) vs Damage threshold.(Toughness alternative.)

Compare weapon damage to target Damage Threshold,

Eg Melta Gun Damage 2xD6

Tyranid Hive tyrant damage threshold 3.

If the melta gun rolls over 3 the HT looses 1 wound.
If the melta gun rolls over 6 the HT looses 2 wounds.
if the melta gun rols over 9 the HT looses 3 wounds.

I haver a simple alternative to AP that covers all units , without resorting to additional rules too!

Hmmm... I'd definitely like to see the removal of forcing 25 armor saves on any of my TMC because someone charged my termagants, killed them all, and had 1 model in b2b with my MC. Annoying to lose a model when no wounds were actually dealt to it.

Also, a rule some of my friends and I have come up with, is that a model can only sweep as many models as it has attacks on the charge i.e. a SM captain killing 1 fire warrior in CC because he whiffed all but 1 swing, then sweeping the remaining 11 because fire warriors cannot hit things to save their lives (literally) is a bit ridiculous. Instead, said captain (for argument purposes is equipped with PW/BP) can only sweep 5 models, which makes complete sense.

ID does need to change to some degree, but some of it also makes sense. Can I see Kharn the betrayer surviving a force weapon due to his chaos allegiance? absolutely. Do I see him surviving a rail gun passing through his torso? no. It's a freaking rail gun.

Make having your transport blown up/crushed/evaporated in a violent way have more of an impact than "I took an ap- bolter round to the spleen" Open top vehicles should have some waylay in this regard because the occupants will be ejected from the vehicle, rather than have it collapse on them.

More use of true buildings, and advantages/disadvantages for being in them. If you are on the third story of a building when a battlecannon blasts out the two floors below you.. well.. gravity has a surprise for you.

As stated a dozen times more game types. Battle missions goes some way to alleviate this, but some are completely OTT while others are completely idiotic.

Have some way to reduce the ubiquity of an invulnerable save, or have different kinds. Should your magic shield protect you from the death-fisting from a chaos champ? sure. Will it stop the plasma cannon fusillade from evaporating you from existence?? .. ... probably not....

More night/day/weather effects. Snow is murder on vehicles not equipped for it, in the same way that slogging through a swamp will not benefit a platoon of (non-catachan) guardsmen. Release more scenarios similar to Zone Mortalis.

Make FNP more scaled towards the unit, possibly to errata the means/methods.

Change allocation/cover. When the ML marine sitting out in the open gets hit by a lascannon, which conveniently reflects off his pauldron, hitting bolter marine 7.. hmm... well.. case & point.

I want the orks to win.

StarHunter25 wrote:Hmmm... I'd definitely like to see the removal of forcing 25 armor saves on any of my TMC because someone charged my termagants, killed them all, and had 1 model in b2b with my MC. Annoying to lose a model when no wounds were actually dealt to it.

Also, a rule some of my friends and I have come up with, is that a model can only sweep as many models as it has attacks on the charge i.e. a SM captain killing 1 fire warrior in CC because he whiffed all but 1 swing, then sweeping the remaining 11 because fire warriors cannot hit things to save their lives (literally) is a bit ridiculous. Instead, said captain (for argument purposes is equipped with PW/BP) can only sweep 5 models, which makes complete sense.

ID does need to change to some degree, but some of it also makes sense. Can I see Kharn the betrayer surviving a force weapon due to his chaos allegiance? absolutely. Do I see him surviving a rail gun passing through his torso? no. It's a freaking rail gun.

Spoiler:

for those of you who haven't read savage scars, all you need to read is the part where the rail gun misses the rhino by about 4 feet, and still melts the rhino in half/kills most of the marines inside

Make having your transport blown up/crushed/evaporated in a violent way have more of an impact than "I took an ap- bolter round to the spleen" Open top vehicles should have some waylay in this regard because the occupants will be ejected from the vehicle, rather than have it collapse on them.

More use of true buildings, and advantages/disadvantages for being in them. If you are on the third story of a building when a battlecannon blasts out the two floors below you.. well.. gravity has a surprise for you.

As stated a dozen times more game types. Battle missions goes some way to alleviate this, but some are completely OTT while others are completely idiotic.

Have some way to reduce the ubiquity of an invulnerable save, or have different kinds. Should your magic shield protect you from the death-fisting from a chaos champ? sure. Will it stop the plasma cannon fusillade from evaporating you from existence?? .. ... probably not....

More night/day/weather effects. Snow is murder on vehicles not equipped for it, in the same way that slogging through a swamp will not benefit a platoon of (non-catachan) guardsmen. Release more scenarios similar to Zone Mortalis.

Make FNP more scaled towards the unit, possibly to errata the means/methods.

Change allocation/cover. When the ML marine sitting out in the open gets hit by a lascannon, which conveniently reflects off his pauldron, hitting bolter marine 7.. hmm... well.. case & point.

As to your point about the lascannon and the ML marine, the idea is that he DOES get killed, but bolter marine 7 picks up the ML. Thus being realistic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Capt. Camping wrote:I want the orks to win.

Lol nope

I would really want monstrous creatures to be as good as vehicles, but knowing GW they'd likely just go and flip flop the vehicles vs monstrous creatures thing and make monstrous creatures vastly better than ground vehicles rather than attempt to balance the two.

LOL poor Orks

I dont care about the boardgame, but i want the emperor reborn!

The nerfing of FnP gives me pause because I was going to start Death Guard in 6th. One of the armies that totally relies on FnP.