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JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:I personally like the idea of allies in the game, I like the idea of having traitor guard and chaos marines in the same army. Whats wrong with that? Nothing. A foreseeable problem with all this is that it won't do much to solve balancing issues. It just makes everyone the same measurement stronger, a simple way to look at it... everyone takes GK allies, even other GK. Extra Dreadknight army anyone?

EDIT: this is a vacuum of course, not ALL armies will be allowed GK allies, basically making those who can't take them suffer for it.

Personally I'm trying my best to stay positive about the new rules and what changes they will bring, however, I must admit this is one point that I am concerned about.
Without trying to sound dramatic, this has the potential to bring ruin to 40k by (further) unbalancing the game.

I believe this could be a real threat to the 'fun' of 40k.

I looked at the Allies Matrix: You can not Allie with yourself.

Example:
#1] Black Templers: They Can Ally with 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 if they don’t include Psykers.

They can ally with:
2] Blood Angels
3] Dark Angels
5] Grey Knights
6] Sisters of Battle
7] Space Marines
8] Space Wolves

They cant Ally with themselves, its not an option.

labmouse42 wrote:Yea for casual games who cares.

I would personally like to see 'nids team up with IG for just that reason. I think genestealer cults were very cool.
Of course, that might come from enjoying the hell out of the original space hulk when I was a kid.

Too bad we may never get our battle limos back.

Honestly, the thought of Imperium types throwing War Walkers against my Eldar makes me sick. I think it should be illegal to use your opponents' own units against him.

In some case, okay, but Renegade IG going with Chaos SM vs Regular IG with some SM back up make sense.

I think its a great idea and I can't wait to get the details on it.

I also think its brilliant on GW's part, they will get to sell more models from army ranges that a customer may not have large forces for.

Anpu42 wrote:I looked at the Allies Matrix: You can not Allie with yourself.

Example:
#1] Black Templers: They Can Ally with 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 if they don’t include Psykers.

They can ally with:
2] Blood Angels
3] Dark Angels
5] Grey Knights
6] Sisters of Battle
7] Space Marines
8] Space Wolves

They cant Ally with themselves, its not an option.

can you please post a link to the new ally matrix? thanks, I haven't been able to find it anywhere

Phragonist wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:I looked at the Allies Matrix: You can not Allie with yourself.

Example:
#1] Black Templers: They Can Ally with 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 if they don’t include Psykers.

They can ally with:
2] Blood Angels
3] Dark Angels
5] Grey Knights
6] Sisters of Battle
7] Space Marines
8] Space Wolves

They cant Ally with themselves, its not an option.

can you please post a link to the new ally matrix? thanks, I haven't been able to find it anywhere

I don't Remeber wich thread it's in, but it was early in one of the other 6th ed threads. I will look and see if i can find it.

Anpu42 wrote:

Phragonist wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:I looked at the Allies Matrix: You can not Allie with yourself.

Example:
#1] Black Templers: They Can Ally with 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 if they don’t include Psykers.

They can ally with:
2] Blood Angels
3] Dark Angels
5] Grey Knights
6] Sisters of Battle
7] Space Marines
8] Space Wolves

They cant Ally with themselves, its not an option.

can you please post a link to the new ally matrix? thanks, I haven't been able to find it anywhere

I don't Remeber wich thread it's in, but it was early in one of the other 6th ed threads. I will look and see if i can find it.

You mean the conjecture chart? I havn't seen the actual matrix being posted, just what people think it is.

Also, unless GW decides to change stuff, Black Templars can ally with psykers as long as they're Grey Knights, as those are the only ones they trust not to have their heads explode on the battlefield. It's in the current Codex, so I'd assume they wouldn't change it just because they can. Then again, they might just forget.

Blood Angels and Necrons are trusted allies in the new dex. FNP necrons LOLs

labmouse42 wrote:Combos like GK/IG can grant GK armies access to vendettas. In fact I would not be surprised if you see a vendetta in every army list that can take them! This means across the board, all armies will become more powerful from their current place in the meta. If all armies gain equally in power, then there is no relative shift in balance. If current weaker armies get proportionally greater power, then the game will be more balanced.
Its also possible that specific combos will be to powerful and banned -- much like Mind Twist in MTG.

What it also means is that older, weaker armies can become more powerful by allying with the newer codex's. Lets say a new Eldar codex comes out and it has some units that are insanely effective. A dark eldar or IG player can take advantage of that new model and play with it by allying with the Eldar and playing with the new model.

No thanks. Your example of GK armies with Vendettas out the wazoo is a perfect reason right there to not have allies in the standard game. Besides: Strong codex + allies from another strong codex will still be more powerful than a Weak codex + allies from a Strong codex. So this won't help codex creep as you claim either. Besides if I am playing Eldar I don't want to *have* to include GK or IG allies just be to competitive. I'd rather see codex creep itself be fixed and not have to add some silly allied forces rule to the game to combat it. Just stop the codex creep and it goes away. Write the next set of books inline with the current round of books, giving preference to those armies with older books and then STOP increasing the power level of all the books when they are written. Have some bloody quality control and oversight over the entire line of books and don't just let individual authors run willy nilly with their projects ignoring the impact all of their really cool ideas are going to have on the game at large.

Skriker




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chancetragedy wrote:I think it fixes the game. I feel like the game is broken now and this Brings it back to the golden age of second edition. If you don't think it's stupid that chaos don't have real daemons, or the imperial guard can't work with space marines, or space marine chapters WITH OTHER CHAPTERS. Then your probably drunk or stupid yourself. This change makes me so happy it's stupid.... My vanilla marines can actually have useful assault marines again... Say what!!!!!!

So having assault marines that have 4s across the board in the combat stats, and power armor, and are better than most any other comparable unit in the game with special rules, is a weakness eh? So sorry for your vanilla marines there, mate. You definitely need to replace them with jump packed and mega kitted out death company instead. Those regular assault marines just suck completely and can't even hurt a tau fire warrior.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kain wrote:I can finally use my old genestealer cult models alongside my tyranids as counts as IG. HUZZAH!

My very first army for Rogue Trader was a genestealer chaos cult. I still miss it. Finally sold it off when I realized I would never really have the chance to play it again. Some forces, though, given their backgrounds probably should not have any allied options at all. Tyranids want to consume all life that is not them so shouldn't really have allies in my opinion. In the fluff the cult was consumed by the horde once it arrived.

There are still numerous areas where allies would be cool storywise for the game, but I don't see most players using them that way. For instance my friends have allowed me to mix and match units from the CSM codex, and the Lost and the Damned codex lists with a smattering of forge world chaos pieces for a while now. I don't use the opportunity to power game, but instead use it to rotate as much of my chaos collection through the games I play as I can. So I'll run a force of CSMs supported by units of mutants and traitor guard. Been meaning to try and figure out a way to incorporate the Chaos Daemons rules into things, but haven't found a way to do so that doesn't feel exceptionally cheesy. So stick with the lousy generic daemons in the chaos book. The key is to play unique and interesting forces and not to overpower and give myself unfair advantages. Using allies as a way to start a second army is a good aspect of the concept too.

Unfortunately, after past experience with allies in 40k versions I expect that they will used in stupid powergaming ways to feed the needs of the WAAC crowd...

Skriker

Chancetragedy wrote:I think it fixes the game. I feel like the game is broken now and this Brings it back to the golden age of second edition. If you don't think it's stupid that chaos don't have real daemons, or the imperial guard can't work with space marines, or space marine chapters WITH OTHER CHAPTERS. Then your probably drunk or stupid yourself. This change makes me so happy it's stupid.... My vanilla marines can actually have useful assault marines again... Say what!!!!!!

First of all, don't call people stupid just because they don't agree with you. That is just pathetic.
Second of all, just from the "alliances" table it is obvious how unbalanced this rule (potentially) is. If you think it increases the balance that one army can take alliances from 8 other and another cannot take them AT ALL perhaps you need to think about others, not just your one and precious army.
There is absolutely NO reason not to play with alliances by house ruling it. Many people do it. Giving GK, IG, SW and BA hundred+ another units to pick from and giving Tyranids none won't "fix" this game.

In the fluff the cult was consumed by the horde once it arrived.

One of them, there's hundreds of cults and they are continually made, it's one of the better ways genestealers continue to harass and setup weakened positions on planets before arrival.

It's like saying all cultists disappeared from CSM because they all sacrificed themselves to summon daemons.

Anpu42 wrote:

Phragonist wrote:

can you please post a link to the new ally matrix? thanks, I haven't been able to find it anywhere

I don't Remeber wich thread it's in, but it was early in one of the other 6th ed threads. I will look and see if i can find it.

That matrix isn't legit in any way, it was made up by a guy on a different forum based on his interpretation of existing fluff- i.e. Blood Angels and Necrons.

I've still yet to see why allies would unbalance the game, my thread about it was taken down.
People are whinging and making ludicrous assumptions, as well as ignoring what we already know. I'd rather spend 500 points on my own heavy support and elites than another army's HQ and troops...

Testify wrote:I've still yet to see why allies would unbalance the game, my thread about it was taken down.
People are whinging and making ludicrous assumptions, as well as ignoring what we already know. I'd rather spend 500 points on my own heavy support and elites than another army's HQ and troops...

Play IG, take Draigo and Paladins or Crowe and Purifiers or a SM biker captain and biker SM troops, etc. That enough for ya?

Or maybe play DoA and bring Imotekh and maybe Immortals in Night Scythes

King Pariah wrote:

Testify wrote:I've still yet to see why allies would unbalance the game, my thread about it was taken down.
People are whinging and making ludicrous assumptions, as well as ignoring what we already know. I'd rather spend 500 points on my own heavy support and elites than another army's HQ and troops...

Play IG, take Draigo and Paladins or Crowe and Purifiers or a SM biker captain and biker SM troops, etc. That enough for ya?

If I wanted Draigo and Paladins...I'd take Draigo and Paladins. Or Purifiers. Sinking half my points (and it would be half with Paladins+Draigo) into that, and another half in a smattering of IG, would be a weak list.
We also don't know if those special abilities will work. It could well be that you are only specifically allowed Troops, no counts-as from special charectors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

King Pariah wrote:
Or maybe play DoA and bring Imotekh and maybe Immortals in Night Scythes

So half my army is deep-striking, the other half would be waiting around on the board? Now there's a solid list

I think that alot of people are forgetting that you still have to pay points for allies

Example: yes GK can go with guard but GKare alot of points which therefore means thats alot less IG in the army.

Yea sure some combos will be lame, but....IIRC there are combos now that are lame?!?!?!

EDIT:grammar

Cain wrote:I think that alot of people are forgetting that you still have to pay points for allies

Example: yes GK can go with guard but GKare alot of points which therefore means thats alot less IG in the army.

Yea sure some combos will be lame, but....IIRC there are combos now that are lame?!?!?!

EDIT:grammar

+1 this.

Most people seem to be crying foul like all of a sudden we're going to be over run by armies of 30-40 Purifyers + 4-6+ vendettas + 18 missilefangs!
Allies will still cost pts in the end, and I highly doubt that GW will let you have allies for free or as an additional force. And if it does turn out that the WAAC's crowd start ruining the tourny scene with silly OP crap? Well, I think most tournies will just up and ban allies and can all go back to simply decrying SW's/IG/BA's/'Crons/DE are so OP!!1!11! (and GK's will still be tops in the end!)

Anyways, let's at least wait for the damn rulebook which is coming in what, 8 DAYS?!!, before we all play Chicken Little...

Allies is a great concept for Imperial armies, assuming GW stopped making Marines so overpowered. It's very "fluffy" to have Inquisitors, Marines, and Guardsmen all together in the same army.

Outside of that though, you start running the risk of having stupid allied setups. Like Chaos and Orks or Necrons and Blood Angels.

2nd edition had allies and it worked out just fine. Not allowed in tourneys iirc.

King Pariah wrote:

Testify wrote:I've still yet to see why allies would unbalance the game, my thread about it was taken down.
People are whinging and making ludicrous assumptions, as well as ignoring what we already know. I'd rather spend 500 points on my own heavy support and elites than another army's HQ and troops...

Play IG, take Draigo and Paladins or Crowe and Purifiers or a SM biker captain and biker SM troops, etc. That enough for ya?

Or maybe play DoA and bring Imotekh and maybe Immortals in Night Scythes

Paladins lose their wound allocation due to losing front models first, and one unit of purifiers isn't exactly scary, neither is one biker troop. Though it all depends on how much one can take really.

King Pariah wrote:

Testify wrote:I've still yet to see why allies would unbalance the game, my thread about it was taken down.
People are whinging and making ludicrous assumptions, as well as ignoring what we already know. I'd rather spend 500 points on my own heavy support and elites than another army's HQ and troops...

Play IG, take Draigo and Paladins or Crowe and Purifiers or a SM biker captain and biker SM troops, etc. That enough for ya?

Or maybe play DoA and bring Imotekh and maybe Immortals in Night Scythes

What does Draigo and Paladins add to an Imperial Guard list? Sure, they're tough as nails, but either you plow a lot of points into the Paladins, in which case you don't get a lot of IG to start with, or you pay for a small squad of Paladins and Draigo, in which case it's easily isolated and taken care of, as you'll have absolutely zero units apart from possibly Rough Riders that'd be able to support the Paladins.

I like the idea for incorporating it into the game to allow you to run fluffy lists. I might use it to run rifleman dreads in my DA list for example. My brother might use it to run his CSM with his CD. And of course the other fluffy examples given above.

sure some people will find ways to abuse/break it. But if you are playing a fun game, just play people who don't take it so seriously. Unless you are competitive, and that's how you have fun, in which case you're probably doing it to.

The tournament scene may or may not allow it. Maybe some will and some won't. Just play whichever you want.

King Pariah wrote:

Testify wrote:I've still yet to see why allies would unbalance the game, my thread about it was taken down.
People are whinging and making ludicrous assumptions, as well as ignoring what we already know. I'd rather spend 500 points on my own heavy support and elites than another army's HQ and troops...

Play IG, take Draigo and Paladins or Crowe and Purifiers or a SM biker captain and biker SM troops, etc. That enough for ya?

Or maybe play DoA and bring Imotekh and maybe Immortals in Night Scythes

Can you make some example lists that are much more powerful than a straight GK or IG list?

Right now I can't see you doing anything with vendettas that you can't already do with psydreads, or with melta vets that you can't do with acolytes. I'm hoping you can show me how you can make the GK codex 40% better

labmouse42 wrote:

King Pariah wrote:

Testify wrote:I've still yet to see why allies would unbalance the game, my thread about it was taken down.
People are whinging and making ludicrous assumptions, as well as ignoring what we already know. I'd rather spend 500 points on my own heavy support and elites than another army's HQ and troops...

Play IG, take Draigo and Paladins or Crowe and Purifiers or a SM biker captain and biker SM troops, etc. That enough for ya?

Or maybe play DoA and bring Imotekh and maybe Immortals in Night Scythes

Can you make some example lists that are much more powerful than a straight GK or IG list?

Right now I can't see you doing anything with vendettas that you can't already do with psydreads, or with melta vets that you can't do with acolytes. I'm hoping you can show me how you can make the GK codex 40% better

I think the absolute worst you could do would be paladins in a valkyrie, and I'm pretty sure an FAQ would come up and say that termies cannot fit in valkyries/vendettas. That and wound allocation reliant units look like they're going to get hit with a nerf.

King Pariah wrote:

Testify wrote:I've still yet to see why allies would unbalance the game, my thread about it was taken down.
People are whinging and making ludicrous assumptions, as well as ignoring what we already know. I'd rather spend 500 points on my own heavy support and elites than another army's HQ and troops...

Armies were written to have strengths and weaknesses. With allies nobody has to have weaknesses anymore. As an Eldar player with limited ranged anti-tank and few solid HQ choices,watch how many Long Fangs and SW HQ lists I make. In fact, they're going to probably be the best units in my list.

It's not good game design if I have to take units from other codices to be competitive. And yes I will have to do this to be competitive since other players will be strengthened by such cherry picking. And it's not fun. And fluff-wise it's an absolute abomination.

(disclaimer: nobody is sure of the exact implementation so there could be very little problem or an even worse one)

mercury14 wrote:
Armies were written to have strengths and weaknesses. With allies nobody has to have weaknesses anymore. As an Eldar player with limited ranged anti-tank and few solid HQ choices,watch how many Long Fangs and SW HQ lists I make. In fact, they're going to probably be the best units in my list.

I know exactly how many Long Fang squads you'll have - one. And you'll need a HQ and troops to go along with that, that's a couple hundred points deadweight, unless you can take advantage of a single squad of troops (with transport?) in a list otherwise made up of fast skimmers. Once again, the people who think allies can be cheese/overpowered don't understand the game.
If you want a Long Fang list, play SW.

Testify wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Armies were written to have strengths and weaknesses. With allies nobody has to have weaknesses anymore. As an Eldar player with limited ranged anti-tank and few solid HQ choices,watch how many Long Fangs and SW HQ lists I make. In fact, they're going to probably be the best units in my list.

I know exactly how many Long Fang squads you'll have - one. And you'll need a HQ and troops to go along with that, that's a couple hundred points deadweight, unless you can take advantage of a single squad of troops (with transport?) in a list otherwise made up of fast skimmers. Once again, the people who think allies can be cheese/overpowered don't understand the game.
If you want a Long Fang list, play SW.

I have no problem taking a SW HQ. They're better than nearly all of my Eldar HQ choices point-for-point and far more survivable.

And SW troop choices will be far from dead weight for me. You know what IS dead weight for me? Eldar troops.