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Kain wrote:I think the absolute worst you could do would be paladins in a valkyrie, and I'm pretty sure an FAQ would come up and say that termies cannot fit in valkyries/vendettas. That and wound allocation reliant units look like they're going to get hit with a nerf.

And I don't think thats going to be that bad. Why a valk over a stormchicken?

If your going with the IG ally, you need to buy a CCS and metlavet, so your 'cost' for the valk is an extra 240 or so points. The stormchicken also has POTMS so can fire a gun when its a weapon delivery system. The only real edge the valk has is the ability to outflank -- which nice you can do the same thing by just dropping paladins off in the middle of the board.

Thus far I've not seen a list that pushes way past the max current power level. What Ive seen are lists that help compensate for weaknesses found in older codex's. A primary example is the eldar, which is mid-lower teir right now. Being able to take broadsides really helps shore up their weakness and makes the list competitive agian.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:I have no problem taking a SW HQ. They're better than nearly all of my Eldar HQ choices point-for-point and far more survivable. .

Save for Eldarad, whose argueably the best IC in the game. Yuriel is also a beast for his points too.

Kain wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:I have no problem taking a SW HQ. They're better than nearly all of my Eldar HQ choices point-for-point and far more survivable. .

Save for Eldarad, whose argueably the best IC in the game. Yuriel is also a beast for his points too.

Eldrad is good. Farseers are average. The rest of the Eldar HQs aren't worth anywhere near their points.

Yriel isn't good at all. T3 and no eternal warrior is really hard to stomach. The modern game has way too many things that can kill him very quickly. There are just far too few realistic targets for him.

All I know is that I will enjoy the many fluffy and characterful conversions this rule will spawn... and rage at the many more hamfisted power-combos that usually won't even be based coherently.

Kain wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

King Pariah wrote:

Testify wrote:I've still yet to see why allies would unbalance the game, my thread about it was taken down.
People are whinging and making ludicrous assumptions, as well as ignoring what we already know. I'd rather spend 500 points on my own heavy support and elites than another army's HQ and troops...

Play IG, take Draigo and Paladins or Crowe and Purifiers or a SM biker captain and biker SM troops, etc. That enough for ya?

Or maybe play DoA and bring Imotekh and maybe Immortals in Night Scythes

Can you make some example lists that are much more powerful than a straight GK or IG list?

Right now I can't see you doing anything with vendettas that you can't already do with psydreads, or with melta vets that you can't do with acolytes. I'm hoping you can show me how you can make the GK codex 40% better

I think the absolute worst you could do would be paladins in a valkyrie, and I'm pretty sure an FAQ would come up and say that termies cannot fit in valkyries/vendettas. That and wound allocation reliant units look like they're going to get hit with a nerf.

You can already fly in Paladins in a Stormraven. Granted, the Valkyrie is cheaper, but it doesn't have Fortitude or an Assault Ramp, so you'd be standing around looking silly for a turn before assaulting.

lord_blackfang wrote:All I know is that I will enjoy the many fluffy and characterful conversions this rule will spawn... and rage at the many more hamfisted power-combos that usually won't even be based coherently.

Since we don't know how allies are being implemented all this chat could be for nothing

But as an Eldar player whose best/coolest powers have mostly been shared by subsequent codices, it bothers me to think that some of our last nifty units (ie War Walker squadrons) might be getting shared now as well.

mercury14 wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:All I know is that I will enjoy the many fluffy and characterful conversions this rule will spawn... and rage at the many more hamfisted power-combos that usually won't even be based coherently.

Since we don't know how allies are being implemented all this chat could be for nothing

But as an Eldar player whose best/coolest powers have mostly been shared by subsequent codices, it bothers me to think that some of our last nifty units (ie War Walker squadrons) might be getting shared now as well.

So you think that sharing war walkers is not worth being able to shore up the Eldar's biggest weakness through broadsides -- long range anti-tank.

Don't you think that helps the eldar codex more than other codex's?

labmouse42 wrote:]So you think that sharing war walkers is not worth being able to shore up the Eldar's biggest weakness through broadsides -- long range anti-tank.

Don't you think that helps the eldar codex more than other codex's?

Might be a nice increase in power. But my main point is that strengths and weaknesses are fun and interesting. I want a 40k game where armies have character, not weaknesses that aren't weaknesses because of the allies rule.

Not sure if the allies rule will help Eldar more than other armies. Part of me thinks it will due to the relatively large number of weak spots in the codex. But since it's unlikely that Eldar-specific powers (ie Guide or fortune) will work on allies, there are likle to by synergy problems that most other armies will not have to deal with.

I think other armies may have a lot to gain by taking a Farseer with Guide + Fortune, cheap War Walkers (behind re-rollable cover), and a cheap 5-man DA unit.

Fortuned Paladins...

...Where is your god now?

Kain wrote:Fortuned Paladins...

...Where is your god now?

I believe the Fortune power states that you can only target Eldar units. Thats worth double checking.

labmouse42 wrote:

Kain wrote:Fortuned Paladins...

...Where is your god now?

I believe the Fortune power states that you can only target Eldar units. Thats worth double checking.

This is almost certainly correct.

The problem for Eldar is that being able to Fortune allies would be overpowered. But not being able to fortune them creates a chunk of the list where psychic powers can't be used, thereby making Eldar units even less worth their points. Like I said, synergy problems.

To be honest, I have no problem with the Allies concept.
Min 1 HQ + 1 Troop, then 1 of each other? or whatever it is...

All I know is I'll be buying an Eldar Battle Force and probably an Autarch to go with my Dark Eldar to make a slightly more viable WWP list.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

In the fluff the cult was consumed by the horde once it arrived.

One of them, there's hundreds of cults and they are continually made, it's one of the better ways genestealers continue to harass and setup weakened positions on planets before arrival.

It's like saying all cultists disappeared from CSM because they all sacrificed themselves to summon daemons.

No it isn't. The cult is seeded, grows, infects and then begins to signal the hive fleet when the hive fleet gets closer the cult attacks and causes chaos. When the hive fleet arrives it consumes ALL. It doesn't save the cult for last. It just eats everything as it always does, reabsorbing the cult into its genetic pool. Once the fleet arrives the cult has lost its purpose and is attacked just as readily as everything else on the planet.

Yep there are cults across many different planets, but that doesn't change the fact that the hive fleet doesn't "care" about the cults except as beacons calling them to ripe targets for consumption. So even if a cult from another world happened to "show up" on a planet that is already being consumed they wouldn't be welcomed as allies, they would be consumed like everything else.

What might work, though, is an IG army with tyranid allies using only genestealers. This could show the PDF that has been corrupted by the cult...

Skriker

mercury14 wrote:
I have no problem taking a SW HQ. They're better than nearly all of my Eldar HQ choices point-for-point and far more survivable.

And SW troop choices will be far from dead weight for me. You know what IS dead weight for me? Eldar troops.

You don't like Eldar troops and HQ...don't play Eldar.
Your SW/Eldar hybrid doesn't sound very scary at all. None of the "omg imba" ally lists do.
Not as scary as say, current GK lists.
One thing to bare in mind - how many men the guard can fit into a single troop choice. I think a lot of imperial armies would be glad of a cheap screening blob.

Byte wrote:2nd edition had allies and it worked out just fine. Not allowed in tourneys iirc.

No it didn't. Not even close...so many cheesy armies taking small amounts of forces from their own list and then filling the rest of the army with cheesy special characters from other lists. I'll take a pass on that, thank you very much.

Mind you I have no problems with interesting and common sense type allied forces. IG and Space Marines works for me. A unit of GK termies supporting another Imperial army also works and makes sense. Even Eldar and Imperial forces joining forces from time to time works for me, but back in 2nd edition for every 1 player who had an army with allies that made sense and made for a characterful force, there were 5 more power gamers who had armies with allies that made for character full forces.

Skriker

I don't have time to come up with a precise list and I'd bet anything that quite a few of you would say something along the lines of "that's not viable for low cost games, well we don't know exactly how allies is going to work so maybe that list won't even be possible, etc." So I'm going to make this clear now, I rarely play sub 2000 point battles prefering 2500+ so these general lists are going to be tailored for such. Also we don't know until we see it how allies is going to pan out and there is NOTHING wrong with anticipating the worst. Here we go:

IG w/ GK:
CCS and Draigo
Vet squads in chimeras and paladins
Valkyries/vendettas (maybe something like two valks/vend's and dreadknight)
LRBT squadron(s)

And this one, well I'm changing up a bit Crons w/ DoA support
Imotekh and Dante
Sanguinary Priests
Sanguinary Guards and Immortals/warriors (in transports most likely)
Wraiths
Annihilation Barges

Or maybe:
BA Termi Capt. And Imotekh with pulse tek
TH/SS Termi's in LRC's
Tac Marines (in rhinos/razorbacks) and Warriors (in ghost Arks)
Scarabs

BA termi Capt. And Overlord in CCB
TH/SS termi's in LRC's
Tac Marines (in rhinos/razorbacks) and Warriors (ghost arks)
Wraiths
Annihilation Barges

Skriker wrote:

Byte wrote:2nd edition had allies and it worked out just fine. Not allowed in tourneys iirc.

No it didn't. Not even close...so many cheesy armies taking small amounts of forces from their own list and then filling the rest of the army with cheesy special characters from other lists. I'll take a pass on that, thank you very much.

Mind you I have no problems with interesting and common sense type allied forces. IG and Space Marines works for me. A unit of GK termies supporting another Imperial army also works and makes sense. Even Eldar and Imperial forces joining forces from time to time works for me, but back in 2nd edition for every 1 player who had an army with allies that made sense and made for a characterful force, there were 5 more power gamers who had armies with allies that made for character full forces.

Skriker

Sure it did, you just didn't like it. That's OK. Allies in 2nd didn't break the game by any stretch. Just fluff receptors and feelings.

Every army allied to space wolves being able to take JOTWW.
If psychic powers from the rulebook can be applied then people will take the cheapest ally that can use the strongest powers that do something that your army cannot.

Like Orks will go for AT or JOTWW for obvious reasons.

King Pariah wrote:I don't have time to come up with a precise list and I'd bet anything that quite a few of you would say something along the lines of "that's not viable for low cost games, well we don't know exactly how allies is going to work so maybe that list won't even be possible, etc." So I'm going to make this clear now, I rarely play sub 2000 point battles prefering 2500+ so these general lists are going to be tailored for such. Also we don't know until we see it how allies is going to pan out and there is NOTHING wrong with anticipating the worst. Here we go:

IG w/ GK:
CCS and Draigo
Vet squads in chimeras and paladins
Valkyries/vendettas (maybe something like two valks/vend's and dreadknight)
LRBT squadron(s)

And this one, well I'm changing up a bit Crons w/ DoA support
Imotekh and Dante
Sanguinary Priests
Sanguinary Guards and Immortals/warriors (in transports most likely)
Wraiths
Annihilation Barges

Or maybe:
BA Termi Capt. And Imotekh with pulse tek
TH/SS Termi's in LRC's
Tac Marines (in rhinos/razorbacks) and Warriors (in ghost Arks)
Scarabs

BA termi Capt. And Overlord in CCB
TH/SS termi's in LRC's
Tac Marines (in rhinos/razorbacks) and Warriors (ghost arks)
Wraiths
Annihilation Barges

You have the rules for allies in 6th edition? Point is: All we have is a loose FOC. There's level of friendship rules and other rumored limitation involving transports and character buffs. Until we have it all...

Throwing darts in the dark.

My orks so want to team up with that eldar HQ that can give fortune to my Lootas

Twin linked deff guns, oh the joy that would bring

sirlynchmob wrote:My orks so want to team up with that eldar HQ that can give fortune to my Lootas

Twin linked deff guns, oh the joy that would bring

Fortune and Guide specify select an Eldar unit, so they won't be able to Fortune or Guide non-eldar allies

Byte wrote:

King Pariah wrote:I don't have time to come up with a precise list and I'd bet anything that quite a few of you would say something along the lines of "that's not viable for low cost games, well we don't know exactly how allies is going to work so maybe that list won't even be possible, etc." So I'm going to make this clear now, I rarely play sub 2000 point battles prefering 2500+ so these general lists are going to be tailored for such. Also we don't know until we see it how allies is going to pan out and there is NOTHING wrong with anticipating the worst. Here we go:

IG w/ GK:
CCS and Draigo
Vet squads in chimeras and paladins
Valkyries/vendettas (maybe something like two valks/vend's and dreadknight)
LRBT squadron(s)

And this one, well I'm changing up a bit Crons w/ DoA support
Imotekh and Dante
Sanguinary Priests
Sanguinary Guards and Immortals/warriors (in transports most likely)
Wraiths
Annihilation Barges

Or maybe:
BA Termi Capt. And Imotekh with pulse tek
TH/SS Termi's in LRC's
Tac Marines (in rhinos/razorbacks) and Warriors (in ghost Arks)
Scarabs

BA termi Capt. And Overlord in CCB
TH/SS termi's in LRC's
Tac Marines (in rhinos/razorbacks) and Warriors (ghost arks)
Wraiths
Annihilation Barges

You have the rules for allies in 6th edition? Point is: All we have is a loose FOC. There's level of friendship rules and other rumored limitation involving transports and character buffs. Until we have it all...

Throwing darts in the dark.

Dear Byte:
Please keep up the good work, using logic to refute the doomsaying commentaries about allies.

Sincerely,
Kanluwen.


But really. There's too many unknowns at this point to make a reliably informed opinion about exactly how allies are going to work.
We know who can ally with who, but not exactly "how" they're allying.

Well the rumours say only the HQ's and troops.
The ally page only shows HQ's so I would assume that's confirmed. Troops are a mabye, anything else is going to be a no.

Otherwise my orks are taking raiders and flying into the enemy with 36" range or venoms or something that just makes them OP.

HQ's make sense and so do troops.
Probably a 0-1 Limitation so gimmicks aren't as bad.

Ovion wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:My orks so want to team up with that eldar HQ that can give fortune to my Lootas

Twin linked deff guns, oh the joy that would bring

Fortune and Guide specify select an Eldar unit, so they won't be able to Fortune or Guide non-eldar allies

what a buzz kill.

Oh well, maybe the allies rules will allow for it

sirlynchmob wrote:

Ovion wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:My orks so want to team up with that eldar HQ that can give fortune to my Lootas

Twin linked deff guns, oh the joy that would bring

Fortune and Guide specify select an Eldar unit, so they won't be able to Fortune or Guide non-eldar allies

what a buzz kill.

Oh well, maybe the allies rules will allow for it

Fortuned Paladins with an apothecary. "Small arms fire? Feth that noise!"

Dog. wrote:Rules rumours for allies as they stand-

-Only one of each FOC slot for an Ally

-1x HQ and 1X Troop are mandatory

-Only certain factions can ally with others.

Thanks for this, been looking for an explanation on allies since yesterday.

If it is indeed the case that allies have these rather strict penalties, what's the problem? It seems perfectly fine to me.

Kain wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Ovion wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:My orks so want to team up with that eldar HQ that can give fortune to my Lootas

Twin linked deff guns, oh the joy that would bring

Fortune and Guide specify select an Eldar unit, so they won't be able to Fortune or Guide non-eldar allies

what a buzz kill.

Oh well, maybe the allies rules will allow for it

Fortuned Paladins with an apothecary. "Small arms fire? Feth that noise!"

I'm sorry, but when did Space Marine Paladins become Eldar again?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Kain wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Ovion wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:My orks so want to team up with that eldar HQ that can give fortune to my Lootas

Twin linked deff guns, oh the joy that would bring

Fortune and Guide specify select an Eldar unit, so they won't be able to Fortune or Guide non-eldar allies

what a buzz kill.

Oh well, maybe the allies rules will allow for it

Fortuned Paladins with an apothecary. "Small arms fire? Feth that noise!"

I'm sorry, but when did Space Marine Paladins become Eldar again?

The ally doesn't matter, just that they help my lootas shoot better I'll have to spend a day at the store going through my ally codex's, to see who all would help.

Kanluwen wrote:

Byte wrote:

King Pariah wrote:I don't have time to come up with a precise list and I'd bet anything that quite a few of you would say something along the lines of "that's not viable for low cost games, well we don't know exactly how allies is going to work so maybe that list won't even be possible, etc." So I'm going to make this clear now, I rarely play sub 2000 point battles prefering 2500+ so these general lists are going to be tailored for such. Also we don't know until we see it how allies is going to pan out and there is NOTHING wrong with anticipating the worst. Here we go:

IG w/ GK:
CCS and Draigo
Vet squads in chimeras and paladins
Valkyries/vendettas (maybe something like two valks/vend's and dreadknight)
LRBT squadron(s)

And this one, well I'm changing up a bit Crons w/ DoA support
Imotekh and Dante
Sanguinary Priests
Sanguinary Guards and Immortals/warriors (in transports most likely)
Wraiths
Annihilation Barges

Or maybe:
BA Termi Capt. And Imotekh with pulse tek
TH/SS Termi's in LRC's
Tac Marines (in rhinos/razorbacks) and Warriors (in ghost Arks)
Scarabs

BA termi Capt. And Overlord in CCB
TH/SS termi's in LRC's
Tac Marines (in rhinos/razorbacks) and Warriors (ghost arks)
Wraiths
Annihilation Barges

You have the rules for allies in 6th edition? Point is: All we have is a loose FOC. There's level of friendship rules and other rumored limitation involving transports and character buffs. Until we have it all...

Throwing darts in the dark.

Dear Byte:
Please keep up the good work, using logic to refute the doomsaying commentaries about allies.

Sincerely,
Kanluwen.


But really. There's too many unknowns at this point to make a reliably informed opinion about exactly how allies are going to work.
We know who can ally with who, but not exactly "how" they're allying.

Dear K and B,

I posted a little "disclaimer" if you will that states that it's me deliberately assuming the worst. I always assume the worst so when things come out I tend not to be disappointed... unless it comes out as I had assumed.

Thank you

-KP

Dr. What wrote:I'm not a competitive gamer, but I think this has some neat fluff values.

Proper Chaos Armies.

Having Guard hold the line until the Angels of Death (SM) come.

A proper Blood Axe klan (Imperial allies).

This was my thought, fluff value.

Like maybe all the times that Elda and IG/SM have teamed up to defeat Chaos.

I'm looking forward to playing a Sisters of Battle army with all the fixin's. Mainly in the form of Imperial Guard Redemptionists.

Or, I could use the GK Codex to bring an inquisitor back into the mix.

Planning on doing a Dark Eldar force with some Kroot allies, as described in one instance of the fluff.

I don't play tourneys anymore, so I'm not building anything stupid, in fact the allies I use are probably more of a hindrance.