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Hell, I went and added the numbers up myself. GW model-releases were clearly skewed in favour of Xenos throughout 5th Edition.

How many codecii were covered in each of your first two columns?

but your talking models, which some of them were so out of date or never produced that they needed production. Much of the Marine stuff already had existant models... Model count does not equal more attention in the 40k universe. As for codexes the marines and imperials got the most... Yes the Dark Eldar got a lot of models, so did the tyranids, but there are still models that GW does not produce for both of those armies, where some one playing that army has to convert a model to "count as". Hell I made all my Eldar jetbike seer council myself, because they have never made a model for them, yet they are in the rules and that is a 4th ed codex. But I believe all the Marine characters and infantry and tanks are all made for you to assemble, paint and play... When GW has produced Jet warlocks/Farseers, Vect, The Doom of Malantine, spore pods, Necron Bomber, Nob Bikers, Warboss Bikers, Etc., then please complain to me about how many models xenos got over Marines.....

Gitsplitta wrote:How many codecii were covered in each of your first two columns?

All Codices released in 5th edition, as well as non-Codex stuff that come out (such as the spearhead-stuff for Eldar and IG).

Plus two Marine armies just are a handful of special models and upgrade kits so they don't need as many models to support the marine armies where as every Xeno model is unique and can't be recycled in another army (the the exception of Eldar/Dark Eldar).

Kris Knives wrote:Plus two Marine armies just are a handful of special models and upgrade kits so they don't need as many models to support the marine armies where as every Xeno model is unique and can't be recycled in another army (the the exception of Eldar/Dark Eldar).

Which is my point. Giving equal weight to, say, the Blood Angels Codex and the Dark Eldar Codex, is misleading. Blood Angels or Grey Knights or Space Wolves are a cheap shots that GW used to tide over the slow early summer with a book and 2 or 3 new minis. The three books combined didn't put as many new toys into the hands of players as the Dark Eldar release did all by itself (or the Necron one). Hell, Chaos Daemons got as many new kits in 5th Edition as Grey Knights did and they didn't even get a book. If anyone got truly shafted in the last 5 years, it's probably Grey Knight players (and talk about an incomplete model-range there!).

Zweischneid wrote:

Kris Knives wrote:Plus two Marine armies just are a handful of special models and upgrade kits so they don't need as many models to support the marine armies where as every Xeno model is unique and can't be recycled in another army (the the exception of Eldar/Dark Eldar).

Which is my point. Giving equal weight to, say, the Blood Angels Codex and the Dark Eldar Codex, is misleading. Blood Angels or Grey Knights or Space Wolves are a cheap shots that GW used to tide over the slow early summer with a book and 2 or 3 new minis. The three books combined didn't put as many new toys into the hands of players as the Dark Eldar release did all by itself (or the Necron one). Hell, Chaos Daemons got as many new kits in 5th Edition as Grey Knights did and they didn't even get a book. If anyone got truly shafted in the last 5 years, it's probably Grey Knight players (and talk about an incomplete model-range there!).

Really what is incomplete about them, they produced their special characters, the inquisitors are available, true if you wanted the psyfleman dred you had to get the weapons seperate or buy and Aegis defense line to make the weapons, but trying to say that Marines get the shaft on anything is hard to swallow.... now some of the Wolves stuff did come out late (this year with the nids release), but other than that, most models are made...

That graph is based on numbers that lean no weight to the argument.

The main objection is that the SM chapters already have a FULL product range that has been supported fully since time began. They do not want for anything.

Why Xenos players cry about having 10 years old codexes the bigest complaint a SM player has is that his terminators cost so much money. Nids didnt have models for things in the book! Dark eldar just got its Pack beats this month... I dont see SM players waiting for shyte... Flyers come out and guess who got one straight away oh, right SM.

The argument isn't based on pure numbers of model realeases. its based on bringing XENOS up to the same level as the IoM... Therefore the Xenos are going to a need ALOT of work and ALOT MORE work to be consider EVEN with SM.

NIDS, DE and CRONS came out in 5th, yes they got a ton of stuff.... GREAT they still didnt have a full range of models like the SM do.... so who cares how many releases Xenos got it still wasnt enough.

People want EVERY XENOS army to have ALL its models and be current to the same Edition. Until that happens, being see the IoM as favourites.

Milisim wrote:That graph is based on numbers that lean no weight to the argument.
.

How has that no weight to the argument. Its a miniature game. For the last 5 years at least, and actually quite longer than that, GW has produced at least half as much again Xenos-Miniatures than it has Marine Miniatures. If the Marine Range is "complete" (hello Henchmen?), than only because it is so much less ambitious and diverse than the goodies the Xenos get. Basing the argument on the relative benchmark of "complete" simply sidesteps the problem by obfuscating the fact that they never even intended to put half as much loving into the Marines as they did for the recent Xenos releases from the start.

Milisim wrote:Flyers come out and guess who got one straight away oh, right Orks, Necrons and Space Marines.

The argument isn't based on pure numbers of model realeases. its based on bringing XENOS up to the same level as the IoM...

Fixed that for you.

Zweischneid wrote:

Milisim wrote:That graph is based on numbers that lean no weight to the argument.
.

How has that no weight to the argument. Its a miniature game. For the last 5 years at least, and actually quite longer than that, GW has produced at least half as much again Xenos-Miniatures than it has Marine Miniatures. If the Marine Range is "complete" (hello Henchmen?), than only because it is so much less ambitious and diverse than the goodies the Xenos get. Basing the argument on the relative benchmark of "complete" simply sidesteps the problem by obfuscating the fact that they never even intended to put half as much loving into the Marines as they did for the recent Xenos releases from the start.

The Sisters of Battle find your assertion that the marines do not get favored treatment over other armies to be heresy and lies! The Sisters have a very complete line o models for their army with every single unit represented. Yet the presence of these models in no way correlates to the amount of care, quality and attention given to the army. Similarly the fact that GW is free to save themselves money by recycling Space Marine models while they are forced to put out more Xeno models by necessity in no way is a demonstrative mark of concern or quality.

You explain yourself well but allow me a counter point to your models argument: For the 25th anniversary they released a very special marine model. And the vast majority of such very special models have and will likely continue to be space marines. If that doesn't say marine bias I don't know what does.

Zweischneid wrote:

Milisim wrote:That graph is based on numbers that lean no weight to the argument.
.

How has that no weight to the argument. Its a miniature game. For the last 5 years at least, and actually quite longer than that, GW has produced at least half as much again Xenos-Miniatures than it has Marine Miniatures. If the Marine Range is "complete" (hello Henchmen?), than only because it is so much less ambitious and diverse than the goodies the Xenos get. Basing the argument on the relative benchmark of "complete" simply sidesteps the problem by obfuscating the fact that they never even intended to put half as much loving into the Marines as they did for the recent Xenos releases from the start.

I think the model argument is not a good one in my opinion, the marines are far more complete models than the xenos

Models asside which codexes are most able to win - marine armies, look at tournies like adepticon, most of the top armies played were Grey Knights and Space Wolves. The wolves aren't even that new of a codex, yet Necrons did not make that big of a show in the top placements and they are the newest codex, tyranids did not even enter (no surprise there with the way their codex is/was for 5th ed), in the top teams no Tau player made it (It would have been cool to see that). Some may argue that they took the top places because most people play marines. I think many, esp. competitive players have more than one army, I think that they also try to build winning or 'uber' lists and the closest this xenos has to that right now is Necrons and even with that army they have their weaknesses, look at Grey Knights, it is hard to build a bad list for them... They might not have a large model listing, but they made up the majority of the winning teams

Not to say that marines should not or can not play in the game, I would just like to see a more balanced list of armies and players....
May be the Allies thing will help this, but I am severely doubting it...

Well, this guy is just asking us what we think about space marines (spess marhreenes!) and anyway...

I like space marines, but I also think hw should make them share the spotlight a bit

Exactly. Just give some other armies a chance to shine instead of always being space marine, space marine, space marine.

Don't bring space marine's down or take away what makes then fun and mass appealing, just raise some other armies up and make sure they are fun and mass appealing too. (Easier said then done I know, but at least that should be the goal.)

It's not about anything other than them. Nor should it be. The game was made for marines. I see no reason why it should change all the sudden just because.

The only marines I have are chaos, and that was very recently that I broke down and bought some MEQ's after a decade of play.

I feel about Space Marines as i do about meringues. They look awesome and make me want to buy lots just from their appearance. So i take a bite of my meringue, and the first one is good, i think i will try a different color one now, and that one is ok. After about 10 differently colored meringues that all look different but taste the same, i am just a sad panda(who has eaten a ton of meringues).

dajobe wrote:I feel about Space Marines as i do about meringues. They look awesome and make me want to buy lots just from their appearance. So i take a bite of my meringue, and the first one is good, i think i will try a different color one now, and that one is ok. After about 10 differently colored meringues that all look different but taste the same, i am just a sad panda(who has eaten a ton of meringues).

LOL


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ignatius wrote:It's not about anything other than them. Nor should it be. The game was made for marines. I see no reason why it should change all the sudden just because.

The only marines I have are chaos, and that was very recently that I broke down and bought some MEQ's after a decade of play.

This is actually not true, when Rogue Trader Came out it was not all about them, sure they got a lot of attention, but at that time, most everyone was pretty even, but then at that time space marine armour was only 4up not 3up and termies were 3up with 5up invuln., anyone could take any equipment so it was a pretty even... Now it was a new game so it certainly was not polished at that point....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kris Knives wrote:Exactly. Just give some other armies a chance to shine instead of always being space marine, space marine, space marine.

Don't bring space marine's down or take away what makes then fun and mass appealing, just raise some other armies up and make sure they are fun and mass appealing too. (Easier said then done I know, but at least that should be the goal.)

I agree completely and I can say with almost 100% certainty that it is not going to happen..

What about poor Codex Assassins?

redkommando wrote:What about poor Codex Assassins?

The were killed to a man and are no longer viable

I think they pretty much integrated into that great OVERPOWERED MAT WARD ABYSS we like to call the Grey Knights Codex... and a smattering in the Sisters codex (death cult)

Lynata wrote:

riverhawks32 wrote:Though I am a staunch Marine player (they were my first army), I would like to see more books and such on the xeno armies. I am a very big into the fluff of 40k and think that the Imperial fluff has covered enough.

Please don't equate Marine fluff with Imperial fluff. I know a couple organisations that could do with more coverage. *coughs*

Oops typed in haste, meant to say staunch marine/guard player and love inquisition fluff and am not overly fond of the other Imperial establishments

Dragonzord wrote: We're saturated with Space marine stuff, and have to go LOOKING for other stuff. That aint how it should be...

Yeah man. Why should YOU have to DO things!? It's your RIGHT as a citizen to have your specific needs pampered to, even when you walk into a community that is all about space marines, they should still be ready to change that to YOUR needs.
THEY ARE VIOLATING YOUR RIGHTS!

Purifier wrote:

Dragonzord wrote: We're saturated with Space marine stuff, and have to go LOOKING for other stuff. That aint how it should be...

Yeah man. Why should YOU have to DO things!? It's your RIGHT as a citizen to have your specific needs pampered to, even when you walk into a community that is all about space marines, they should still be ready to change that to YOUR needs.
THEY ARE VIOLATING YOUR RIGHTS!

Wow how about some nice and raw sarcasm with a steaming heaping spoonfull of bull

I love killing Space Marines with my Boyz, especially the Chapters with the latest Codices that think they are now the ultimate power in the 40K universe, ESPECIALLY when they think they have me in the bag because they've repeatedly beaten their 14 year old kid brother who plays with the 'leftovers' of the AOBR set that they started their armies with.