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Kovnik Obama wrote:

Tadashi wrote:They don't care.

Hum. Tell that to my first girlfriend, who'se grandmother told me how she was raped by 7 japanese soldiers after they had murdered her husband (yeah that made great supper time conversation).

Like how my maternal great-grandfather languished in a hellish prison camp? Let bygone be bygones, at least until someone pushes us.

This will be my last post on the matter of the Japanese Emperor - you cannot, and will never understand why we accept the cultural and traditional absolutism of the Crysanthemum Throne.

True, I cannot understand why an adult human being would make himself subserviant to a being of equal worth and equal nature. Not because I'm culturally or physically unable to understand, but because the obvious logic gap in such an attitude should appears to anyone with a modicum of education. It's not a cultural thing, or at least not in it's form. It's simply that such an attitude is less than optimal for any remotly evolved living being. We aren't ants. Dogs are only so subserviant because naturally, for hundreds of generations, such an arrangement has been to their advantage. Please point me to obvious advantage, derived from your voluntary slavery, that japanese have over ''gaijin'' ?

Because that is who we are. Its that simple.

You can know, but you will never understand, just as Humans will never truly understand Eldar.

Okay I didn't reply to the first 'human to eldar as westerner to asians' comparison you made, but this is just stupid. I mean, this is stupid and racist. Japanese, or asians, are in no way a monolithic group. They do not show any particular characteristics, as a group, culturally, that distinguishes them from westerners. Your cultural paradigms are in no was inaccessible to our understanding ; like I showed you, we also had a theory of absolute monarchism. It's been discarded because, as history shows, tyranny isn't an optimal form of social organisation.

Tadashi wrote:Let bygone be bygones, at least until someone pushes us.

Only if that means not forgetting the horrible war crimes your ancestor commited.

Because that is who we are. Its that simple.

No it's not. I asked a question. What does your slavery brings you that makes you so special, beyond being a slave?

I do not question because if I question and reject it, I will cease to be Japanese.

No you won't. A nationality isn't a culture. You are japanese because you were born in japan. Simple as that. Your political affiliation does not define your nationality.

Are you suggesting we should just give up our unique culture and traditions because the West does not agree?

No, I'm suggesting that you should act rationaly. You are the one bringing the western-asian semantics into it.

That line of reasoning, that Western values of individuality and cultural archetypes are something the entire world should subscribe to, is what angers the Chinese and everyone in the Middle East, and what slowly strengthens the nationalists in Japan. Thanks to that reasoning, me and my fellow nationalists are slowly building up our power base in the sacred home islands.

Yes, because extremist usually feels vindicated at the simple mention that their position is extreme. It doesn't make it less crazy. Oh and I fear for the japanese people the day that such 'nationalists' as you take power and enact the changes you seem to wish for. We remember what happened when Germany was granted it's right to re-arm...

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Let bygone be bygones, at least until someone pushes us.

Only if that means not forgetting the horrible war crimes your ancestor commited.

That's a laugh, considering a million Japanese died in the fire bombing of Tokyo, and my grandmother still remembers running through the burning streets with her family and looking up and then seeing planes with stars and stripes emblazoned on their wings. And she was a child at the time. Not to mention the 300,000 people who died in the nuclear attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the one million Japanese who suffered from radiation poisoning in the following decades. Think about that when you bring up our past actions.

Because that is who we are. Its that simple.

No it's not. I asked a question. What does your slavery brings you that makes you so special, beyond being a slave?

Nothing. Except that to bow before the Emperor and acknowledge his power is part of what makes us Japanese.

I do not question because if I question and reject it, I will cease to be Japanese.

No you won't. A nationality isn't a culture. You are japanese because you were born in japan. Simple as that. Your political affiliation does not define your nationality.

Wrong. I wasn't born in Japan, so should that mean I shouldn't be Japanese? And yet, look at this - my Japanese passport that makes me a Japanese subject. My culture, nationality, and mentality is Japanese, regardless of whether or not I was born there or not.

That line of reasoning, that Western values of individuality and cultural archetypes are something the entire world should subscribe to, is what angers the Chinese and everyone in the Middle East, and what slowly strengthens the nationalists in Japan. Thanks to that reasoning, me and my fellow nationalists are slowly building up our power base in the sacred home islands.

Yes, because extremist usually feels vindicated at the simple mention that their position is extreme. It doesn't make it less crazy. Oh and I fear for the japanese people the day that such 'nationalists' as you take power and enact the changes you seem to wish for. We remember what happened when Germany was granted it's right to re-arm...

Tadashi wrote:
That's a laugh, considering a million Japanese died in the fire bombing of Tokyo, and my grandmother still remembers running through the burning streets with her family and looking up and then seeing planes with stars and stripes emblazoned on their wings. Not to mention the 300,000 people who died in the nuclear attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the one million Japanese who suffered from radiation poisoning in the following decades. Think about that when you bring up our past actions.

I question the actions of my military. When they do stupid gak (they usually don't, I'm proud of that) I protest. And it's a bit ludicrous to moan about the deaths of thousands of civilians that were too brainwashed to question the decision of invading everything that surrounds them. You have to choose ; if everyone is subserviant to the emperor, then there's no such thing as civilians. Everyone is then part of the warmachine.

Nothing. Except that to bow before the Emperor and acknowledge his power is part of what makes us Japanese.

No it doesn't. The japanese that don't bow before the emperor aren't any less japanese.

Wrong. I wasn't born in Japan, so should that mean I shouldn't be Japanese? And yet, look at this - my Japanese passport that makes me a Japanese subject. My culture, nationality, and mentality is Japanese, regardless of whether or not I was born there or not.

Okay, descent also plays a part in it. Still nothing to do with the ceremonial Head of the State.

Just as Horus said "Let the galaxy burn!!!, we say "Tenno Heika Banzai!!!".

Stop drawing comparisons to 40k. It doesn't help your case. In fact, it makes it poorer, since it draws a comparison between what you say and a fictionnal setting which is a satyre of fascist states.

Only if you stop trying to make people across the world abandon their cultural identity and make them into carbon copies of yourselves will all your enemies disappear.

Again, your the only one bringing this Use vs Them rethoric in the discussion. I'm not asking that you lose your culture. I'm asking you to realize that love for the emperor isn't the entirety of yuor culture, just like love for the fuhrer wasn't the entirety of german culture, although they claimed as much. Did germany loose it's culture once it remounced it's tyranny? Hell no. In fact it opened itself to a larger part of it's own history which had been obfuscated for the State's needs.

Did you know there is a beautiful irony in using the enemy's strength against them? War is good for business...(laughs)

So we're enemies now? Too bad for you, because that means you'll soon get blown out of your sacred islands. Oh and war isn't good for business. That's a trope too often repeated. The aftermath of war is good for the victor's business. Sometimes. Seriously, I'm not the one closed to anyone's culture here. Open a book about political theory. Read it. You'll become a better person...

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
That's a laugh, considering a million Japanese died in the fire bombing of Tokyo, and my grandmother still remembers running through the burning streets with her family and looking up and then seeing planes with stars and stripes emblazoned on their wings. Not to mention the 300,000 people who died in the nuclear attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the one million Japanese who suffered from radiation poisoning in the following decades. Think about that when you bring up our past actions.

I question the actions of my military. When they do stupid gak (they usually don't, I'm proud of that) I protest. And it's a bit ludicrous to moan about the deaths of thousands of civilians that were too brainwashed to question the decision of invading everything that surrounds them. You have to choose ; if everyone is subserviant to the emperor, then there's no such thing as civilians. Everyone is then part of the warmachine.

Good. You understand. We are the Emperor, and the Emperor is us.

Nothing. Except that to bow before the Emperor and acknowledge his power is part of what makes us Japanese.

No it doesn't. The japanese that don't bow before the emperor aren't any less japanese.

They'd be considered rude and ill-mannered - I'm sure even you know how politeness is considered in Japan. In war, they'd be considered traitors.

Only if you stop trying to make people across the world abandon their cultural identity and make them into carbon copies of yourselves will all your enemies disappear.

Again, your the only one bringing this Use vs Them rethoric in the discussion. I'm not asking that you lose your culture. I'm asking you to realize that love for the emperor isn't the entirety of yuor culture, just like love for the fuhrer wasn't the entirety of german culture, although they claimed as much. Did germany loose it's culture once it remounced it's tyranny? Hell no. In fact it opened itself to a larger part of it's own history which had been obfuscated for the State's needs.

Then stop calling me irrational for bowing before the Chrysanthemum Throne and placing the Empire above the individual. Our culture places our community -embodied in the Emperor - over a single individual.

Open a book about political theory. Read it. You'll become a better person...

I have. My reaction was - "All these senators and ministers...its a wonder anything gets done!" What the world needs isn't freedom or high-sounding rhetoric about democracy or rights. What it needs is unification and leadership.

Tadashi wrote:
Good. You understand. We are the Emperor, and the Emperor is us.


Then stop calling me irrational for bowing before the Chrysanthemum Throne and placing the Empire above the individual. Our culture places our community -embodied in the Emperor - over a single individual.

No. This is a worst a logical fallacy, or at best a legal fiction. An individual doesn't embody anything else than it's individuality. It's what it means to be an individual. If your culture places more importance in communal values, fine. That doesn't imply at all making yourself a slave to somebody else...

They'd be considered rude and ill-mannered - I'm sure even you know how politeness is considered in Japan.

Still, Ill-mannered and rude japanese.

In war, they'd be considered traitors.

I have. My reaction was - "All these senators and ministers...its a wonder anything gets done!" What the world needs isn't freedom or high-sounding rhetoric about democracy or rights. What it needs is unification and leadership.

Yeah, honestly that makes you a fascist. feth this, you are beyond hope. All I can say is that I'm happy there's not enough of you to make a damned difference. Don't come to Canada. We don't take kindly to fascists.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Good. You understand. We are the Emperor, and the Emperor is us.


Then stop calling me irrational for bowing before the Chrysanthemum Throne and placing the Empire above the individual. Our culture places our community -embodied in the Emperor - over a single individual.

No. This is a worst a logical fallacy, or at best a legal fiction. An individual doesn't embody anything else than it's individuality. It's what it means to be an individual. If your culture places more importance in communal values, fine. That doesn't imply at all making yourself a slave to somebody else...

We prefer the word subjects.

They'd be considered rude and ill-mannered - I'm sure even you know how politeness is considered in Japan.

Still, Ill-mannered and rude japanese.

In other words, low class...heck, even if you're poor but polite, people will respect you. Even if you're rich and powerful, if you're rude and ill-mannered, people will avoid you whenever possible. I got that drilled into me even by my mother.

In war, they'd be considered traitors.

I have. My reaction was - "All these senators and ministers...its a wonder anything gets done!" What the world needs isn't freedom or high-sounding rhetoric about democracy or rights. What it needs is unification and leadership.

Yeah, honestly that makes you a fascist. feth this, you are beyond hope. All I can say is that I'm happy there's not enough of you to make a damned difference. Don't come to Canada. We don't take kindly to fascists.

Kovnik Obama wrote:No. This is a worst a logical fallacy, or at best a legal fiction. An individual doesn't embody anything else than it's individuality. It's what it means to be an individual. If your culture places more importance in communal values, fine. That doesn't imply at all making yourself a slave to somebody else...

I'm far from a royalist, however I'd have to disagree with you here; the Queen is an individual who represents the traditional and historic culture and values of England and a number of other countries in the union and commonwealth. Hell, in the USA the office of president is revered by about half the population at a time (depending what colour team won last).

There is nothing special or different about the Japanese. You are humans, just like the rest of us, and you change the way your society works when you feel the need, just like the rest of us.

I do not care about what you prefer. I have nothing but the upmost contempt for fascist's preferences. And that would be semantically incorrect, as nationalists only imply that you value your nation's over others, and has no implications toward the organisation of said nation.

You use a racist and totalitarian rethoric ; you are a fascist.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:No. This is a worst a logical fallacy, or at best a legal fiction. An individual doesn't embody anything else than it's individuality. It's what it means to be an individual. If your culture places more importance in communal values, fine. That doesn't imply at all making yourself a slave to somebody else...

I'm far from a royalist, however I'd have to disagree with you here; the Queen is an individual who represents the traditional and historic culture and values of England and a number of other countries in the union and commonwealth. Hell, in the USA the office of president is revered by about half the population at a time (depending what colour team won last).

Question from one subject to another: what is the Queen to the British? Is she really just a figurehead, or, like the Emperor, commands absolute power culturally and traditionally?

Kaldor wrote:There is nothing special or different about the Japanese. You are humans, just like the rest of us, and you change the way your society works when you feel the need, just like the rest of us.

Not to the point where we lose our cultural identity.

Kovnik Obama wrote:I do not care about what you prefer. I have nothing but the upmost contempt for fascist's preferences. And that would be semantically incorrect, as nationalists only imply that you value your nation's over others, and has no implications toward the organisation of said nation.

You use a racist and totalitarian rethoric ; you are a fascist.

(smiles like the Cheshire Cat) You mad?

SilverMK2 wrote:
I'm far from a royalist, however I'd have to disagree with you here; the Queen is an individual who represents the traditional and historic culture and values of England and a number of other countries in the union and commonwealth. Hell, in the USA the office of president is revered by about half the population at a time (depending what colour team won last).

Like I said, it's only a legal fiction. No one acts as if their will is embodied in the Queen ; that would imply that you would defer to her for every single actions you take. When we say that the will of the people is embodied in the constitutional assembly, or the Queen, we say nothing else than we gave her power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:
(smiles like the Cheshire Cat) You mad?

Yes, fascists makes me mad. It's a good thing for you that we didn't have this conversation face to face.

Tadashi wrote:Question from one subject to another: what is the Queen to the British? Is she really just a figurehead, or, like the Emperor, commands absolute power culturally and traditionally?

I'd say that for the majority of people she is little more than a figurehead. For a smaller number of people she is more. I would not say that she commands absolute power in terms of culture and tradition, or anything else when people are living their day to day lives, though I would not see anyone minding too much if she asked to cut in front of them at the post office

I wasn't aware that the Emperor in Japan was still seen as an ultimate cultural and traditional authority by many people and that he was more like the queen (although living on a smaller budget).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kovnik Obama wrote:Like I said, it's only a legal fiction. No one acts as if their will is embodied in the Queen ; that would imply that you would defer to her for every single actions you take. When we say that the will of the people is embodied in the constitutional assembly, or the Queen, we say nothing else than we gave her power.

That wasn't the point you were making to which I was replying.

Of course it was. I know full well that a lot of people, both in tyrannies and constitutional monarchies in the world claim that their leader 'embodies the will of the people'. When they do so, they actually mean that they are their representant, and the holder of their political power. This is not Tadashi's point, tho. His is semi-mystical. 'we are the Emperor and he is us'. 'we cannot question him without losing what we are'. That's all fallacies based on nothing else but semi-religious fervour, or possibly racist rethoric.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Question from one subject to another: what is the Queen to the British? Is she really just a figurehead, or, like the Emperor, commands absolute power culturally and traditionally?

I'd say that for the majority of people she is little more than a figurehead. For a smaller number of people she is more. I would not say that she commands absolute power in terms of culture and tradition, or anything else when people are living their day to day lives, though I would not see anyone minding too much if she asked to cut in front of them at the post office

I wasn't aware that the Emperor in Japan was still seen as an ultimate cultural and traditional authority by many people and that he was more like the queen (although living on a smaller budget).

No, the Emperor has absolute power culturally and traditionally, constitution or not, BUT, here's the important part: the Emperor traditionally does not rule Japan directly unless in an emergency. Only the Meiji Emperor has ruled the Empire directly in modern times, because at the time Japan needed a strong, singular leader to avoid Western imperialism. Along with King Mongkut and his successor, King Chulalongkorn, they ensured that their respective nations (Japan and Thailand) avoided Western imperialism. The Showa Emperor used that absolute authority once: after the nuclear attack, before the Showa Emperor made his final decision, the Imperial General Headquarters considered fighting to the bitter end, but after the decision was made, they bowed and decided to surrender. Even after that, General Macarthur was only able to gain the cooperation of the Japanese because he didn't dare challenge the Chrysanthemum Throne - he left the Emperor alone and governed under him. The current Emperor also made us of that authority when he 'asked' all of Japan to show solidarity in the wake of the recent tsunami. No one demurred.

Tadashi wrote:Not to the point where we lose our cultural identity.

You need to understand that all cultural identity stems from common human traits. There is nothing special about the Japanese.

You also need to understand that all cultural identity is fleeting and temporary. Japanese cultural identity, if such a thing can be defined, has undergone several significant changes in the last thousand years.

It is certainly not projecting western values to suggest the individuals mold society, nor is it racist.

SilverMK2 wrote:
I wasn't aware that the Emperor in Japan was still seen as an ultimate cultural and traditional authority by many people and that he was more like the queen (although living on a smaller budget).

I don't think he is. None of my japanese friends have ever mentionned any such attachment to his figure when we spoke about politics.

Tadashi wrote:
That's a laugh, considering a million Japanese died in the fire bombing of Tokyo

Good. You understand. We are the Emperor, and the Emperor is us.

Firstly, a million is a little inflated.

Secondly, since the Japanese people are the Emperor apparently, him sanctioning an undeclared act of war against America meant that all of the Japanese people sanctioned that attack, which pretty much means that you can't claim the Japanese people as innocent victims of a war they started.

Okay, SilverMK2, let me rephrase. I might have still been too mad about Tadashi's posts to actually express myself correctly.

When someone say that they put the value of the community before the value of the individual, this doesn't imply that they need a figure head.

Furthermore, if they say they put the value of the community before the value of the individual, but then values the word of an individual above all else, they are lying to themselves. They are putting the value of that individual before the value of the community, and before the value of individuals in general.

There. Damnit.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Furthermore, if they say they put the value of the community before the value of the individual, but then values the word of an individual above all else, they are lying to themselves. They are putting the value of that individual before the value of the community, and before the value of individuals in general.

As I've said before, the Emperor doesn't just rule over Japan, he is Japan.

Bromsy wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
That's a laugh, considering a million Japanese died in the fire bombing of Tokyo

Good. You understand. We are the Emperor, and the Emperor is us.

Firstly, a million is a little inflated.

Secondly, since the Japanese people are the Emperor apparently, him sanctioning an undeclared act of war against America meant that all of the Japanese people sanctioned that attack, which pretty much means that you can't claim the Japanese people as innocent victims of a war they started.

An excellent point. I have never denied any of the atrocities committed by the Empire, seeing as my own maternal great-grandfather spent most of WWII in a hellish prison camp, but it runs both ways. If democratic governments are supposed to govern by the people, for the people, and through the people, then all the atrocities committed by Western powers, in Vietnam, in Korea, in the Middle East, in South America, and other places, then they have no right to claim terrorist attacks on civilians as attacks on innocent people.

Tadashi wrote:As I've said before, the Emperor doesn't just rule over Japan, he is Japan.

...

Are your daily earthquake an embodiement of his Most Sacred bowel movements?

Kovnik Obama wrote:Furthermore, if they say they put the value of the community before the value of the individual, but then values the word of an individual above all else, they are lying to themselves. They are putting the value of that individual before the value of the community, and before the value of individuals in general.

An individual can represent the values of the community while still commanding that community with near absolute power. One does not have to lie to oneself to adhere to what could be described as a dynastic cult of personality, however Japanese culture does have (or certainly had) a much stricter integration with the Imperial person and family than many western cultures ever had.

Although as I mentioned above, I thought that bond had been seriously weakened in the last hundred years or so, and certainly in the last couple of generations, to the point where to most people the Emperor is little more than a traditional figurehead. I certainly am not aware of him having much official power and believe his office to be almost purely ceremonial.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Tadashi wrote:As I've said before, the Emperor doesn't just rule over Japan, he is Japan.

...

Are your daily earthquake an embodiement of his Most Sacred bowel movements?

(laughs) of course not. Perhaps I should have been clearer? He is the embodiment of our Empire's culture, traditions, and sovereignty, even if he does not rule directly. And he does not, except in the most dire need, for that is what our traditions dictate.

SilverMK2 wrote:
Although as I mentioned above, I thought that bond had been seriously weakened in the last hundred years or so, and certainly in the last couple of generations, to the point where to most people the Emperor is little more than a traditional figurehead. I certainly am not aware of him having much official power and believe his office to be almost purely ceremonial.

As I've said before, tradition dictates the Emperor not to rule directly except in the most dire need. His power is absolute, but he traditionally takes the role of a figurehead, with political power in the hands of others entrusted to govern, not rule, in his name and under his authority.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:Furthermore, if they say they put the value of the community before the value of the individual, but then values the word of an individual above all else, they are lying to themselves. They are putting the value of that individual before the value of the community, and before the value of individuals in general.

An individual can represent the values of the community while still commanding that community with near absolute power. One does not have to lie to oneself to adhere to what could be described as a dynastic cult of personality

Well, yes. If you adhere to a cult of personality, it's that personality that you worship. You can well say that that personality represents the entire culture, but, factually, that's simply impossible. Not a single individual will be a perfect representation of what would be described as the total sum of a community's value. On top of things, it's much more likely that people will simply look at the figurehead they worship and then change their values in accordance with his.

Tadashi wrote:He is the embodiment of our Empire's culture

But he wasn't always, and he won't always be in the future.

That's the point. That society is made up of individuals, who change that society as time goes on. Because 'society' is only the name for the group of conventions that we, as humans, use to live together peacefully in groups.

Kovnik Obama wrote:Well, yes. If you adhere to a cult of personality, it's that personality that you worship. You can well say that that personality represents the entire culture, but, factually, that's simply impossible. Not a single individual will be a perfect representation of a what would be described as the total sum of a community's value. On top of things, it's much more likely that people will simply look at the figurehead they worship and then change their values in accordance with his.

Cultures change and adapt based on internal and external forces. Traditionalist cultures like that which existed in Japan have a lot of inertia - even with a leader who is bat gak crazy, the overall culture will keep on going more or less the same until the next leader who appears who more closely reflects the ideals. Cultures which are less traditional are likely to fall apart with a change in leadership (especially when someone takes over who does not fit in with the established culture) - just look at the endless warfare in Africa where warlord X rises to power, rules with an iron fist for a decade or so before the next guy comes along and unseats him, making his own faction and "community" the top dogs until someone unseats him, etc.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:Furthermore, if they say they put the value of the community before the value of the individual, but then values the word of an individual above all else, they are lying to themselves. They are putting the value of that individual before the value of the community, and before the value of individuals in general.

An individual can represent the values of the community while still commanding that community with near absolute power. One does not have to lie to oneself to adhere to what could be described as a dynastic cult of personality

Well, yes. If you adhere to a cult of personality, it's that personality that you worship. You can well say that that personality represents the entire culture, but, factually, that's simply impossible. Not a single individual will be a perfect representation of a what would be described as the total sum of a community's value. On top of things, it's much more likely that people will simply look at the figurehead they worship and then change their values in accordance with his.

And that's what makes such a system so ideal. Look at the mighty names of Human history: Gilgamesh, Rameses the Great, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Augustus, Justinian I, Charlemagne, Qin Shi Huang, Kublai Khan, Nobunaga Oda, Hideyoshi Toyotomi, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Elizabeth I, Peter the Great, Frederick the Great, Catherine the Great, Napoleon Bonaparte, the Meiji Emperor, King Mongkut, King Chulalongkorn, Vladimir Lenin, Fidel Castro, and so many others...they were all tyrants and dictators, and yet it was they who made their nations and empires great.

Tadashi wrote:
And that's what makes such a system so ideal. Look at the mighty names of Human history: Gilgamesh, Rameses the Great, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Augustus, Justinian I, Charlemagne, Qin Shi Huang, Kublai Khan, Nobunaga Oda, Hideyoshi Toyotomi, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Elizabeth I, Peter the Great, Frederick the Great, Catherine the Great, Napoleon Bonaparte, the Meiji Emperor, King Mongkut, King Chulalongkorn, Vladimir Lenin, Fidel Castro, and so many others...they were all tyrants and dictators, and yet it was they who made their nations and empires great.

You've pretty much invalidated your point. Each and every one of those did what they did at a horrible cost for their people. And about half of the empires they founded didn't last longer than their own lives, or that of one or two descendants. All the while nations founded on democratical values have flourished and thrived for what, over 400 years, now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverMK2 wrote:
Cultures change and adapt based on internal and external forces. Traditionalist cultures like that which existed in Japan have a lot of inertia - even with a leader who is bat gak crazy, the overall culture will keep on going more or less the same until the next leader who appears who more closely reflects the ideals. Cultures which are less traditional are likely to fall apart with a change in leadership (especially when someone takes over who does not fit in with the established culture) - just look at the endless warfare in Africa where warlord X rises to power, rules with an iron fist for a decade or so before the next guy comes along and unseats him, making his own faction and "community" the top dogs until someone unseats him, etc.

In that exemple I would say that such cultures are reduced to it's bare minimum. And you can hardly get more traditionnal than ''enter generic african culture''. In those case it's a clash between a personnality with means beyond what the traditionnal culture can cope.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
And that's what makes such a system so ideal. Look at the mighty names of Human history: Gilgamesh, Rameses the Great, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Augustus, Justinian I, Charlemagne, Qin Shi Huang, Kublai Khan, Nobunaga Oda, Hideyoshi Toyotomi, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Elizabeth I, Peter the Great, Frederick the Great, Catherine the Great, Napoleon Bonaparte, the Meiji Emperor, King Mongkut, King Chulalongkorn, Vladimir Lenin, Fidel Castro, and so many others...they were all tyrants and dictators, and yet it was they who made their nations and empires great.

You've pretty much invalidated your point. Each and every one of those did what they did at a horrible cost for their people. And about half of the empires they founded didn't last londer than their own lives. All the while nations founded on democratical values have flourished and thrived for what, over 400 years, now?

(snorts) As opposed to what, slow stagnation and decay? And last I looked, those nations and empires have achieved dizzying heights of glory and power democratic nations could never hope to achieve. And nothing of great value can be achieved without great sacrifices. Not to mention that while the nations and empires of the noble fallen have crumbled, their names and achievements continue to echo down the ages...the Epic of Gilgamesh, the mighty monoliths and hieroglyphs of Egypt, the ruins and cultural influences of Rome, the Code of Justinian, China and Japan as unified nations, Russia as the great giant empire/nation of the north, France's proud glories and monuments, Japan and Thailand as the only nations not to fall under the hand of Western imperialism, Russia industrialized, Cuba's defiance of the American Empire, and so many other things democracies could never hope to equal.

Tadashi wrote: Fascist rant

Yeah, I care more about the wellbeing of my neighbours than about some statue. This makes me Pro-Decay and Stagnation. For feth sakes... How about writing an interesting book, if you want to go down in the annals. Aristotle did more for the world then Alexander ... And his name is still mentionned 2300 years later.