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I'm Hijacking this thread by saying this: It's not a matter of how many flyers you're running because as an IG player, I can always run more squadrons of hydra's for a lot cheaper. Flyer's being OP is BS against the IG. The real question is, how many Hydra's is too many because if I had the money, I'd field 3 tanks and everything else would be my converted hydras....

I'ma just leave this battle report here:

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/08/14/nsfw-necrons-vs-space-wolves-2000pts/

Yeah, fliers RIGHT NOW are kinda stupid. Wait for codexes to update. Until then, broke as all get out

ONE

There is no one answer to how many fliers is too many. If you are in an environment where you want to win, such as a tournament, or even a playgroup which likes to play hard games, then you run whatever the optimal number is (basically a balance between the number of fliers you want to take vs. the ground units you want to take). For example, you rarely see 9 flier necron lists, because even if you could find the points for it, whatever is starting the game on the table is going to be blown off the field turn 1 and you will auto-lose.

For casual games, just follow the general rule of don't make it so that the other players can't have fun. If they enjoy the challenge of trying to ground 9 fliers, go ahead. If they find it unfun, cut back. If you are wanting to be fair, I'd say between 2 to 4 is the magic number (fliers in small numbers are useless if your opponent has any way of bringing them down).

 Surtur wrote:
I'ma just leave this battle report here:

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/08/14/nsfw-necrons-vs-space-wolves-2000pts/

Yeah, fliers RIGHT NOW are kinda stupid. Wait for codexes to update. Until then, broke as all get out

This pretty much disproves that. I tried to remain unbiased but this is worse than when Grey Knights came out and that Fish of Fury Tau Cheese from way back when.

I don't have any fliers at the present time due to being unemployed (soon to be fixed....I hope) so right now I go without and do ok (Annihilation Barges make pretty good AAA platforms). Once I get access to fliers however, if I'm playing casual then 1-2 in the force. However, in a tournament situation, the gloves will come off and I will be fielding as many as I can and still field a balanced force, such as the one JY2 ran at The Golden Throne. I just need the cash to purchase said fliers before I can do this.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Don't they have FMC's that can do stuff?

If not, then only nids players have fair reason to complain.

We have vector strike and twin-linked Devourers.

...That's about it.

Well the reason I am going to field two fliers myself is that it is exactly the same plan I had in 5th. Two razorwing jetfighters.

 Surtur wrote:
I'ma just leave this battle report here:

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/08/14/nsfw-necrons-vs-space-wolves-2000pts/

Yeah, fliers RIGHT NOW are kinda stupid. Wait for codexes to update. Until then, broke as all get out

Wow that was funny but nasty.

In my experience, two AV12 flyers or 3-4 AV11 or lower flyers is about the ceiling of what a regular army can face unless it tailor specifically to fight flyers at the expense of everything else.

I see that complaining on the internet about how fliers are destroying the game is constructive. I'm currently playing in a doubles tourney and my partner and I have 2 fliers between the two of us (Doom Scythe and GK Storm Raven) and the game last night consisted of the other team bitching and moaning about how they, "Can't win because reasons." It's seriously annoying. Do you know how much of a points sink fliers are, including multiple fliers? If you roll on the Strategic table, there are a few traits that mess with fliers, most notably the -1 to reserves. If you're worried, take your own fliers or get an allied detachment for fliers, or an ADL. There are plenty of options other than complaining and going straight for the CHEEZUS and GW IS 'TARDS argument.

I guess it depends on the army, ork dakka jets are Armour 10 all around meaning Bolters glance on 6's and now you can glance vehicles to death.
Also if you have something like a lascannon on a vehicle, and it gets shaken you should shoot a flyer since you hit on 6's anyway.

Another thing is if you look at the wargear section of the new rulebook under 'missle launcher' you can see a 3rd type of a missle, called the flakk missle. afaik its S7 AP4 heavy 1, skyfire. I was told at my flgs it will be an upgrade for about 10 pts.
That would mean SM, CSM, IG and a few others would get a cheap skyfire option once the new codexes come out.

Ah but currently no one has them in their codex options and the haven't been FAQ'ed in yet.

 Daemonhammer wrote:
I guess it depends on the army, ork dakka jets are Armour 10 all around meaning Bolters glance on 6's and now you can glance vehicles to death.
Also if you have something like a lascannon on a vehicle, and it gets shaken you should shoot a flyer since you hit on 6's anyway.

Another thing is if you look at the wargear section of the new rulebook under 'missle launcher' you can see a 3rd type of a missle, called the flakk missle. afaik its S7 AP4 heavy 1, skyfire. I was told at my flgs it will be an upgrade for about 10 pts.
That would mean SM, CSM, IG and a few others would get a cheap skyfire option once the new codexes come out.

At my FLGS we house ruled that it is a 5pt upgrade per missile launcher.

I actually feel bad for all the people spending tons of cash on flyiers. Once the codexs start dropping they should have skyfire all over the place, then it won't make much since to have all these flyiers. Big waist of money if you ask me, but hey if you got the money to burn more power to ya.

 Great Deceiver wrote:
I see that complaining on the internet about how fliers are destroying the game is constructive. I'm currently playing in a doubles tourney and my partner and I have 2 fliers between the two of us (Doom Scythe and GK Storm Raven) and the game last night consisted of the other team bitching and moaning about how they, "Can't win because reasons." It's seriously annoying. Do you know how much of a points sink fliers are, including multiple fliers? If you roll on the Strategic table, there are a few traits that mess with fliers, most notably the -1 to reserves. If you're worried, take your own fliers or get an allied detachment for fliers, or an ADL. There are plenty of options other than complaining and going straight for the CHEEZUS and GW IS 'TARDS argument.

The vast majority of players don't mind facing 1 or 2 flyers as even without any skyfire options, you can still use things like twin-linked guns and such to bring them down.

However, it's quite understandible when people show upto what they think is supposed to be a 'friendly open gaming night' and suddenly they're staring down 5-6+ flyers... Players running full-on air cav lists need to meet opponents in the middle ground, and at least have the decencey to offer their opponent/s a choice wether or not they want to try and tackle that much air power. Most armies outright require the right allies and/or fortifications to stand a chance, while some armies are just outright boned altogether. (*cough*tyranids*cough*)

And that's assuming that each potential opponent even has access to the proper allies and/or fortifications in their model collections! Telling Little Timmy for example that next time, all he needs to bring to face your 6 valkyrie + 3 vendetta list is some allied AA like IG hydras & an ADL is still being a giant dillhole...

 wowsmash wrote:
I actually feel bad for all the people spending tons of cash on flyiers. Once the codexs start dropping they should have skyfire all over the place, then it won't make much since to have all these flyiers. Big waist of money if you ask me, but hey if you got the money to burn more power to ya.

I don't know, fliers are a big selling point for GW. Indeed, I hear that the Ork Dakkajet was one of the most successful non-SM releases GW have had this decade. Granted, the "Oooh Planes" craze may die down but I still reckon GW will want to keep fliers selling. So yes, I imagine there'll be more Skyfire, but not quite "all over the place".

And this seems like an appropriate time to talk briefly about a game I had the other day. I had the misfortune of facing a WAAC player with 6 (iirc) Necron Doom Scythe thingys. I then proceeded to roll Skyfire Nexus for every objective

I'm sure that my flgs isn't the best example, but there are only a few people with fliers there. IIRC, 4 fliers total (my Doom Scythe, a GK Storm Raven, and two DE Razorwings). The place where fliers are a big deal is on the tournament scene.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Great Deceiver wrote:
I see that complaining on the internet about how fliers are destroying the game is constructive. I'm currently playing in a doubles tourney and my partner and I have 2 fliers between the two of us (Doom Scythe and GK Storm Raven) and the game last night consisted of the other team bitching and moaning about how they, "Can't win because reasons." It's seriously annoying. Do you know how much of a points sink fliers are, including multiple fliers? If you roll on the Strategic table, there are a few traits that mess with fliers, most notably the -1 to reserves. If you're worried, take your own fliers or get an allied detachment for fliers, or an ADL. There are plenty of options other than complaining and going straight for the CHEEZUS and GW IS 'TARDS argument.

The vast majority of players don't mind facing 1 or 2 flyers as even without any skyfire options, you can still use things like twin-linked guns and such to bring them down.

However, it's quite understandible when people show upto what they think is supposed to be a 'friendly open gaming night' and suddenly they're staring down 5-6+ flyers... Players running full-on air cav lists need to meet opponents in the middle ground, and at least have the decencey to offer their opponent/s a choice wether or not they want to try and tackle that much air power. Most armies outright require the right allies and/or fortifications to stand a chance, while some armies are just outright boned altogether. (*cough*tyranids*cough*)

And that's assuming that each potential opponent even has access to the proper allies and/or fortifications in their model collections! Telling Little Timmy for example that next time, all he needs to bring to face your 6 valkyrie + 3 vendetta list is some allied AA like IG hydras & an ADL is still being a giant dillhole...

Exactly, we shouldn't have to fight fire with fire, at least with Grey Knights and Space Wolves you didn't have to feild 9 of a counter unit just to stand a chance of beating them. As an IG player if I don't run flyers I have to run hydras (whose only model is a $60 forge world one). A unit that is useless against everything else except flyers, but unlike the hydra flyers are great against everything.

IG 10.
SM, GK and BA 4
DE 4
Necrons 4
Orks 4
Tau, BT, DA, SW, SoB, Nids (not counting FMC), Chaos, Eldar- 1

Not including allies and Double FoC. BAsically a long way of say as many as you can fit in a list. Who doesn't want to see a squadron of Dakkajets flit across the table? From a cinematic viewpoint of course, their opponent won't be happy.

The only time too many flyers is too many is when they take up too much space in the army so that it cannot be effective in practical ways


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hobojebus wrote:
I'm gonna take 1, but so help me if people moan about that i'll take more out of spite!

That's what I'd do. But I'd probably take 3-6 to begin with.

If people whine, I'll run 12. That many Vendettas would not be great, but they'd destroy gak and would cause whining.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:


If people whine, I'll run 12. That many Vendettas would not be great, but they'd destroy gak and would cause whining.

Fuel the nerdrage, brother. Let no one tell you how to play the game.

I'm still rolling with my 12 Hydra's for 3/4 the points

Then your HS slots are wasted, and the Flyer player has logistically defeated you.

Why people complain about 1 flyer when its possible to field 36, they should feel happy that your not spamming them.

This would be a stupid amount of points, but still.

How 36? ( and yes, it'd be 7-8000pts)

Probably Crons at. Double Force org. There at least 12 Night Scythes for Warriors, 6 Doom Scythes. I think Lychguard can get NS, so theres another 6 making 24. Tomb Blade can get them IIRC? Another 6 for 30.

Then take IG allies and double FOC makes it 2 DA slits of 3 flyers each for 36. My info may be wrong on the NS for the Crons though.

sorry some how managed to get 12 guard flyers in there.
9 night scythes, 3 doom = 12. guard allies = 3 more = 15
2 force org = 30, not 36. Going crazy.