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 Compel wrote:
n the UK, you do not need to start paying your student loan back until you earn over £21000 per year,

Although you can end up paying back even if you are not earning that; sometimes I get two weeks pages paid on a single cheque due to delays in processing the hours I work; because I get 80 hours worth of money at once the system thinks I am earning enough to pay back student loans, so I get deductions made even though I am getting paid for two weeks work, rather than just one.

and if you haven't paid it back in 30 years from that point, the debt is wiped.

Depends on the conditions in force when you applied for your student loan. Mine passes on to my next of kin when I die...

 filbert wrote:

 Testify wrote:
As someone who actually lives near nottingham (about 14 miles away), you can live VERY comfortable for £14k a year. Whinging Londoners.

Depends what your standard of 'living comfortably' is, I suppose.

Good darts dear sir!

That made me chuckle so much I spilt my drink, still the butler will deal with that it the lazy bugger ever gets back from waitrose!

I do love a hard done by student, their susidiesed lives are so difficult that anyone earning a wage has it simple!

Like Red I pay more in council tax in a month than some are stating in a year and I really am behind the earning curve in my part of the world.

My starting wage after uni was more than the designer salaries stated here and that was fifteen years ago. £14-15k is poor by any measure for a talented grad, but as with most things a company will get away with paying wha th applicant will accept. The company I work for would pay £16k to someone while putting them through uni, but I know of some of our undergrads that are on as little as £12k and have taken on second jobs as well.

 Testify wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Man, things must be a TON different in the UK. Living by myself, I could not live on $1600 a month. Between Rent, Insurance, Gas, Student Loan payments, and Utilities, I don't think I'd have any money left for food.

£14k is $22.5k, or $1,875 a month.

Before Taxes. Of which both the state and federal guv'ment help themselves to a healthy chunk. At an estimate 30% total tax rate, you'd be looking at between $1300-1400 a month here.

Average costs for Cincy-ish

1 Bedroom Apartment that isn't a complete shythole - $500 a month
Automobile Costs (Insurance, Gas, Parking) - ~$200 a month
Basic Phone Cost - $50 a month (this may be low, I have no idea)
Electric - ~$100 a month (if you pay a flat rate to cancel out the amount of power you use in the winter)
Internet - $40
Student Loans - $300 is pretty average for the middle class American that paid for college on their own

Puts you at around $1200 a month, and I didn't include food or a car payment or ANYTHING extra. That's all, pretty much, the basics.

So, god willing you dont get a flat tire. Or get sick and have to go to the doctor, etc. Many of the people making those salaries in the US are actually better off if they didn't go to college. But could they get the job if they didn't? There's our viscious cycle.

Wow, I didn't realise that this thread would generate so much controversy.

I know Matt Ward gets paid in the tears of gamers, but that is for another thread

 cincydooley wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Man, things must be a TON different in the UK. Living by myself, I could not live on $1600 a month. Between Rent, Insurance, Gas, Student Loan payments, and Utilities, I don't think I'd have any money left for food.

£14k is $22.5k, or $1,875 a month.

Before Taxes. Of which both the state and federal guv'ment help themselves to a healthy chunk. At an estimate 30% total tax rate, you'd be looking at between $1300-1400 a month here.

But we're talking about the UK, not the states. But feel free to talk about US taxes and US student loans in a discussion about a wage in the UK

According to a website, 14k after tax is about £1,000 a month. Which, as I have said, is easily livable on £300 rent plus £100 or so for bills. Leaves about £150 a week for food an other stuff, even if you want to take out £25 a week to get the bus to work.

We are talking a full time designer job here, something that should let you provide for your familly and not a student job for people that either live with their parents or share rooms with buddies...

And before you come with bias about saving and living without luxury etc I can tell you I KNOW because I came from Portugal and lived there all my life.

300 rent is not realistic for a standart house or flat... and 1k per month is short for a familly...

Testify - how old are you?

You seem to be viewing this problem from a unique vantage point.

 Alpharius wrote:
Testify - how old are you?

You seem to be viewing this problem from a unique vantage point.

I turned 24 last weekend.

Since it's been brought up, what exactly is the standard for "living well" for the average Dakka member?

$22k a year or the equivalent in pounds is the standard!?!?

I'm not materialistic by any means, but $22k a year? really?... in the UK of all places!?!?!

Please enlighten me.

Well in the East Midlands where GW is based, the average salary is apparently £18,300 per annum.
Though obviously, it varies greatly. Personally I don't regard "Game Designer" as particularly prestigious but I'm quite middle class

 Testify wrote:
Well in the East Midlands where GW is based, the average salary is apparently £18,300 per annum.
Though obviously, it varies greatly. Personally I don't regard "Game Designer" as particularly prestigious but I'm quite middle class

Bringing enough money to put food on the table and a roof for your familly has nothing to do with prestigious...

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Well in the East Midlands where GW is based, the average salary is apparently £18,300 per annum.
Though obviously, it varies greatly. Personally I don't regard "Game Designer" as particularly prestigious but I'm quite middle class

Bringing enough money to put food on the table and a roof for your familly has nothing to do with prestigious...

Walk into a supermarket and you'll see a dozen people who get by on less than that.

 reds8n wrote:
From your link

"This new concept in student living "

That's why it's cheap and would also therefore be unavailable for a full time professional games designer.

"well paid full time job" .. yeah, I live in luxury.

It just means its aimed at students, anyone can rent it.
If you look hard enough im sure you will be able to find out that in nottingham, you can let a room for as low as £50 a week and there are plenty of ones going for £60 - £70 and thats even for a professional such as yourself.

I can't say I know of many families where the primary earner works on a supermarket till.

Generally, they're either students, secondary earners giving a family a cash boost or the semi retired.

I'm reminded of a guy that used to work at a Games Workshop I occasionally visited. The first time I went there fairly normal (for a person, not a GW employee). The second time, he was looking fairly beaten down. This continued the next couple of times I visited. Then, the last time I went, he wasn't there. Later on that day, I went to a fast food restaurant and there he was, far happier looking flipping burgers than I've ever seen him at Games Workshop.

 Testify wrote:
Well in the East Midlands where GW is based, the average salary is apparently £18,300 per annum.
Though obviously, it varies greatly. Personally I don't regard "Game Designer" as particularly prestigious but I'm quite middle class

Wow...

Coming from a decidedly low income background, I know people can get by on a meager income. Not quite the same as living well, but ignorance is bliss I guess. I never thought about it until the expansion of the suburbs into our area, then my family's 'failings' were all laid bare.

In the UK I guess it's easier to commute to work etc... perhaps some of the costs are offset by infrastructure? In the US, at least in my area, the commutes are typically 35-70 minutes to downtown with clear roads. Without any real mass transit a car is an absolute must as nearly everyone lives in a "bedroom community" of some sort. I am completely ignorant about living in the UK to be truthful,but I had entertained moving back to the family homeland once upon a time and thought it too expensive.

The one advantage I have is that my job and new circumstances don't require me to be anywhere and as of Oct 16th I will be my own boss. Which is why this particular thread and its contents caught my eye.

I'd say it's very difficult to compare commuting costs and the like between the UK and US, there is a lot of things that are just too different.

For example, as you say everything is incredibly spread out in the states whereas, in the UK that sort of travel time would send you to a completely different city.

Another big difference is fuel costs, I believe fuel in the UK is as an absolute minimum 3 times more expensive than the states due to taxes. I believe the costs of owning a car, such as road taxes are also significantly higher.

On the other hand, from what you're describing, the UK would seem to have a better public transport infrastructure but, then again, if you're travelling for 70 minutes somewhere on a bus, you'd probably be going in a completely useless route. EG, a 40 minute trip by car would turn into a 2 and a half hour odyssey round a dozen tiny villages to pick up 1 extra passenger by bus.

Additonally, public transport prices in general have gone completely crazy. Aside from all the details brought in that BBC article you still have events when return tickets end up being significantly less expensive than 1 single.

A mate of mine used to work for GW and ended up quitting partly because he worked out it was costing him just as much money to get to work as what he made in a day, despite still living with parents. As he was in a small town, he had poor transport links to the larger towns, so needed a car. The cost of running the car, plus about an hours worth of petrol each day, plus parking costs just made it unaffordable.

 cincydooley wrote:

Average costs for Cincy-ish

1 Bedroom Apartment that isn't a complete shythole - $500 a month

Just to put another data point in, that'd be dirt cheap in the DC Metro area. (East coast US.) My last appartment in a not-great area was well over $1,000/month when I first first leased it over 10 years ago. It was over $1,400/month when I moved out a few years back. :(

My house payment is actually less! Although, I'm responsible for repairs...

500/month in and around Houston is a gak hole in the ghetto.

 Testify wrote:
According to a website, 14k after tax is about £1,000 a month. Which, as I have said, is easily livable on £300 rent plus £100 or so for bills. Leaves about £150 a week for food an other stuff, even if you want to take out £25 a week to get the bus to work.

£100 a month on bills? I pay £95 a month on council tax on a 2 bed flat... I wish all my other bills cost £5

£300 a month rent? 0_o
Ill move in next week?

My rent on a 2 bedroom house in a normal ish area is £600 a month.
Throw in the car, thats another £110 a month.
Food, electric, gas, phone, internet etc - £400 a month.

Thats now £1,100 a month and thats not including alot, infact, throw in little things like TV liscence and it goes up even more.

After tax i bring home around £450 a week, which to be honest, isnt really a comfy amount to live on.

I'm not sure this discussion is necessarily comparing like for like. Certainly if you're in an "Oh god I need a job to feed my family and find somewhere to live" situation, you can maybe get by on £14k/year, but it's not going to be terribly much fun. Some people work for this, and less, for years.

But if you're looking for a job at this rate, I seriously doubt your first port of call is going to be the GW design department.

What GW is advertising is a career. And I'd say that the rate they're paying in that case is nothing short of predatory.

my 2 cents:
you can't survive for £14k/year, that's for sure, with family kids and this hobby. Whoever says its possible must be living in overcrowded house, without family, car or damn excessive hobby!

GW pays, in average £33k pa for experienced Game designer (+3% to 5% increase a year, just above inflation)...
One of GW guys (u know him, cant give the name) has PhD degree and is on approx.£38k pa.... he must love what he is doing as if you compare to other PhDs they on about £60k+ pa. Bear in mind everybody can be a game designer (does not req a degree, does it) even a Italian-English translator! )

To put things into context, A full timer on 35 hours a week at the current UK national minimum wage would earn £11,265.80 per year before deductions.

£14-15k is roughly comparable to a call centre operator, retail supervisor, entry level office admin or other similar role.

These figures are a couple of years old, but the UK mean average salary is around £25,000 per year, and the median is around £20,000.

You work in the GW studio because it's what you really want to do, not because of the money. I've applied several times now and got a little further in the process each time - last time I actually got to the interview stage, along with 7 others out of over 100 applicants. I'll continue to apply next time there's a vacancy, because it's really what I want to do.

best of luck to you to !

I recall going for an editorial position (sub-editor) in the Studio last year. The pay was between £16,000 and £18,000. I'd like to think the Design Team are on at least that.

 Hercule Pyro wrote:
A Stoofer avatar

Respect is due!

To put things into context, A full timer on 35 hours a week at the current UK national minimum wage would earn £11,265.80 per year before deductions.

£14-15k is roughly comparable to a call centre operator, retail supervisor, entry level office admin or other similar role.

These figures are a couple of years old, but the UK mean average salary is around £25,000 per year, and the median is around £20,000.

Quite.

And for more context a 'living wage' is deemed to be around £14 000 a year (sufficient to house, feed and clothe oneself plus a cheap two-week holiday and what some might consider minor luxuries -- not actually enough to, say, enough to raise a family).

For those used to the student lifestyle and who are prepared to live in shared houses and live cheaply, £14 000 a year might seem like luxury. For anyone aspiring to more than that, it's a bare minimum (and the true 'minimum wage' scarcely enough to do more than subside on).

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:

For those used to the student lifestyle and who are prepared to live in shared houses and live cheaply, £14 000 a year might seem like luxury. For anyone aspiring to more than that, it's a bare minimum (and the true 'minimum wage' scarcely enough to do more than subside on).

Oh hey, i heard you vote Tory?

Your bog standard staff at GW don't get much. going rate or less from what i know. I know at least one of there star artists/sculpters at one point was on at least 70k+ i think closer to 100k pa (thats GBP). I have no ideas about the game designers, i would think that seriously strong mathematics for various situations to balance things right would be key, making things fun in comparison is fairly easy as just trawl forums and you get lots of great ideas etc (i am sure plenty of people would debate this but in comparison to creating mathematical models i would find it easier). Someone with good maths or math/physics/engineering degree = 30-35k average in the uk to hang on to them i think, due to the 'fun' aspect of the job in that you probably get to play i would say 30k ish.