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SetantaSilvermane wrote:
Wow, I have zero reason to buy this book because I play Space Wolves, and still don't get the flyers.

They'll get one eventually.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Arrathon wrote:
Did i read it correct that Black templars can take the Strom talon as well as the raven?

Q: Land Speeder Storms, Stormraven Gunships and Stormtalon
Gunships are all listed as Space Marine vehicles in the Reference
section. Does this mean that every Space Marine Chapter now has
access to these vehicles as well (i.e . Space Wolves, Blood Angels,
Grey Knights etc.)? (p411)
A: No – you may usually only select units and vehicles that are
available in the army list section of your codex. The two
exceptions are the Stormtalon and Stormraven Gunships,
which are available to armies chosen from Codex: Space
Marines and Codex: Black Templars. The rules for using these
Flyers can be found in the Death From the Skies compendium

According to RAW, Blood Angels and Grey Knights just lost their Storm Raven

No. Just no.
Is the Storm Raven part of the army list section of the BA and GK codices still? Then you may select is as usual.
Does making an exception to make them available to armies chosen from Codex: SM and Codex: BT say anything about them only being available to those two books?
The exception is to "you may usually only select units and vehicles that are available in the army list section of your codex.
Another exception to that rule is the Night Spinner for the Eldar, which is not in the Eldar codex.

Trying to claim that RaW says Ba and GK don't get Storm Ravens now is wrong, and only trying to cause confusion for a laugh.

MajorWesJanson wrote:


Trying to claim that RaW says Ba and GK don't get Storm Ravens now is wrong, and only trying to cause confusion for a laugh.

no, the rules book should say every single case when a rule or change does or does not apply on every page for every rule, we need a 5000 page rulebook

MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

According to RAW, Blood Angels and Grey Knights just lost their Storm Raven

No. Just no.
Is the Storm Raven part of the army list section of the BA and GK codices still? Then you may select is as usual.
Does making an exception to make them available to armies chosen from Codex: SM and Codex: BT say anything about them only being available to those two books?

Yes. The FAQs for C:SM and the BRB are different. The BRB FAQ says:

BRB FAQ 1.3 wrote:No – you may only select units and vehicles that are available in the army list section of your codex. The two exceptions are the Stormtalon and Stormraven Gunships, which are only available to armies chosen from Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Black Templars.

(emphasis mine)

That quite clearly says that armies other than Codex Space Marines and Black Templars do not get the Stormtalon or Stormraven. Furthermore, it's not actually in conflict with the codex-specific FAQs (which omit the "only") at all - the codex FAQs state that those two armies may take the units but make no mention of any others not being able to take them. The BRB, on the other hand, is very specific and unambiguous on that point: that only Codex marines and Black Templars may take them.

I think we can all agree it's an obvious mistake (and maybe it was actually picked up in editing and just not corrected in the BRB version) but the BRB FAQ is pretty clear on the matter as written.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

According to RAW, Blood Angels and Grey Knights just lost their Storm Raven

No. Just no.
Is the Storm Raven part of the army list section of the BA and GK codices still? Then you may select is as usual.
Does making an exception to make them available to armies chosen from Codex: SM and Codex: BT say anything about them only being available to those two books?

Yes. The FAQs for C:SM and the BRB are different. The BRB FAQ says:

BRB FAQ 1.3 wrote:No – you may only select units and vehicles that are available in the army list section of your codex. The two exceptions are the Stormtalon and Stormraven Gunships, which are only available to armies chosen from Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Black Templars.

(emphasis mine)

That quite clearly says that armies other than Codex Space Marines and Black Templars do not get the Stormtalon or Stormraven. Furthermore, it's not actually in conflict with the codex-specific FAQs (which omit the "only") at all - the codex FAQs state that those two armies may take the units but make no mention of any others not being able to take them. The BRB, on the other hand, is very specific and unambiguous on that point: that only Codex marines and Black Templars may take them.

I think we can all agree it's an obvious mistake (and maybe it was actually picked up in editing and just not corrected in the BRB version) but the BRB FAQ is pretty clear on the matter as written.

It doesn't sat that at all. GK and BA have the Storm Raven in their codex army list. All armies can pick units from their codex army list. The only exception to this are SM and BT who are able to take those units from OUTSIDE their army list.

You're ignoring what the second sentence is talking about in relation to the first sentence. It's saying there are two exceptions to being able to pick units from your codex army list.

 yakface wrote:

BRB FAQ 1.3 wrote:No – you may only select units and vehicles that are available in the army list section of your codex. The two exceptions are the Stormtalon and Stormraven Gunships, which are only available to armies chosen from Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Black Templars.

It doesn't sat that at all. GK and BA have the Storm Raven in their codex army list. All armies can pick units from their codex army list. The only exception to this are SM and BT who are able to take those units from OUTSIDE their army list.

You're ignoring what the second sentence is talking about in relation to the first sentence. It's saying there are two exceptions to being able to pick units from your codex army list.

1.) We all know what is intended, so this discussion is just for fun.
2.) Yakface, your reformulation is a good expression of what is intended, but certainly not of what is written. Written is that Storm Raven and Storm Talon are exceptions of what units you may select for your army. And it is explicit that you may only take Storm Raven and Storm talon for SM and BT according to this FAQ. Saying that something else is intended is okay, saying that something else is written is wrong. Exchange the second "only" to "also" and everything would be fine.

You started this for fun but all you are doing now is proving that you can't read the paragraph properly.

Kroothawk is definately right as far as RAW goes.

RAW in 40k is an excercise in futility.

I love reading stuff like this thread and snickering. Reminds me of why I'm glad I dumped GW for a game company that apparently uses technical writers so that language and rules are tight and require very little errata....

 Kroothawk wrote:

1.) We all know what is intended, so this discussion is just for fun.
2.) Yakface, your reformulation is a good expression of what is intended, but certainly not of what is written. Written is that Storm Raven and Storm Talon are exceptions of what units you may select for your army. And it is explicit that you may only take Storm Raven and Storm talon for SM and BT according to this FAQ. Saying that something else is intended is okay, saying that something else is written is wrong. Exchange the second "only" to "also" and everything would be fine.

No it absolutely does not say that, full stop.

Let's read it again, and I'll break it down. First sentence:

No – you may only select units and vehicles that are available in the army list section of your codex.

What does that say? You may only select units and vehicles available in the army list section of your codex. Because remember the question is whether or not players are able to take units that are listed in the summary of the rulebook but not actually in their respective codex.

And since BA and GK players actually have the Stormraven in their codex, that is a unit/vehicle in their codex and they are therefore allowed to take it.

Now onto the second sentence:

The two exceptions are the Stormtalon and Stormraven Gunships, which are only available to armies chosen from Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Black Templars.

It mentions 'two exceptions'...but two exceptions to what? The answer is the first sentence. These are the two exceptions to the clarification that 'you may only select units and vehicles that are available in the army list section of your codex.'


So when you put it all together, you get:

The two exceptions to only being allowed to take units/vehicles from your codex army list are the Stormtalon and Stormraven, but only in armies chosen from the SM and BT codexes.


So what it does not say is that ONLY BT and SM armies can take Stormtalons and Stormravens. It says that only those two codexes are able to make the exception of taking units from outside what is in their codex army list (to take the Stormtalon and Stormraven).


The RAW only says what you're claiming if you willfully ignore the structure of the two sentences together.

yeah,

 yakface wrote:
It says that only those two codexes are able to make the exception of taking units from outside what is in their codex army list (to take the Stormtalon and Stormraven).

So orks can't take dakka jets/bommers... RAW?

Panic...

 Panic wrote:
yeah,

 yakface wrote:
It says that only those two codexes are able to make the exception of taking units from outside what is in their codex army list (to take the Stormtalon and Stormraven).

So orks can't take dakka jets/bommers... RAW?

Panic...

"The two exceptions are the Stormtalon and Stormraven Gunships."

Is the Dakka Jet/Bommer part of the two exceptions that says Stormtalon and Stormraven? No.

 Panic wrote:
yeah,

 yakface wrote:
It says that only those two codexes are able to make the exception of taking units from outside what is in their codex army list (to take the Stormtalon and Stormraven).

So orks can't take dakka jets/bommers... RAW?

Panic...

No, remember the question is can any SM codex take any of the vehicles listed in the rulebook summary section. So the answer is regarding SM codexes, nothing else.

People often want to treat FAQ answers as rules, which they are not. They are answers to questions, so you cannot ignore the question when reading the answer.

yeah,
I was also poking fun at a lose bit of text with the RAW stick...
But people are correct GW just has to phrase things better to keep clarity- which is the purpose of the FAQ.

It would have bee easier if they just said No -
All Chapters use their codex army lists as normal.

Panic...

Guys, I know you like trolling but when Yakface starts calling you out over your misinterpretation, it's time for you to quit.

So in RAW,

Stormtalon and Stormraven Gunships, which are only available to armies chosen from Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Black Templars.

means

Stormtalon and Stormraven Gunships, which are NOT only available to armies chosen from Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Black Templars.

I see your point , but I guess, we have to agree to disagree here.

 Kroothawk wrote:
So in RAW,

Stormtalon and Stormraven Gunships, which are only available to armies chosen from Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Black Templars.

means

Stormtalon and Stormraven Gunships, which are NOT only available to armies chosen from Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Black Templars.

I see your point , but I guess, we have to agree to disagree here.

And yet you're still reading selectively...and in this case you've actually physically removed the section of the sentence that invalidates your point.

The Stormtalon and Stormraven are the TWO EXCEPTIONS. Two exceptions from what? The exceptions from the previous sentence that says players may only select units from their codex army list.

So the Stormtalon and Stormraven are the only two exceptions to this (of SM vehicles), but only in SM and BT armies.


It seriously cannot be read any other way without completely ignoring the part about those two being the exceptions (as you did in your post).

No matter what, nothing in the second sentence invalidates the ruling in the first sentence that players may only select units from their codex army list, which for BA and GK codexes, includes the Stormraven.

Sorry fella but the exception means that the rule stating you can only select from your codex does not apply to stormravens and storm talons. They then assert that storm talons and ravens may only be selected by space marines and black Templars. It is not an exception for codex's it is an exception that applies to two specific miniatures. It then makes clear the circumstances in which you may select those two miniatures in an army.

This is obviously not what is intended but it is what they have written. I think the level of debate alone proves that this is poorly worded and needs a rethink.

In summary:(trying to decipher the debate about SM and such)

Codex: SM and Codex: BT get to use Stormravens and Stormtalons now, yes?

Codex BA and Codex GK get to use Stormravens as indicated in their codex, yes?

@byte rules as intended yes that is indeed correct.

 yakface wrote:
The two exceptions to only being allowed to take units/vehicles from your codex army list are the Stormtalon and Stormraven, but only in armies chosen from the SM and BT codexes.

That's incorrect.
According to the FAQ, this is how the sentence should be structured:

The two exceptions to only being allowed to take units/vehicles from your codex army list are the Stormtalon and Stormraven, which are only available in armies chosen from the SM and BT codexes.

That's using the actual words from the second sentence (quoted below) instead of how it should have read.

The two exceptions are the Stormtalon and Stormraven Gunships, which are only available to armies chosen from Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Black Templars.

You changed the sentence when you dropped the word "available".

From the new errata for Death from the Skies.

Page 68 – Army List, Stormraven Gunship, Grey Knights
Stormraven Gunship.
Change first sentence to read ‘Stormravens in detachments
chosen from Codex: Grey Knights are Fast Attack and must
replace their stormstrike missiles with mindstrike missiles
(pg 64).

Can i ask a question...You guys know what their saying in these faq's.. You know ba and gk do not loose their fliers..so..what exactly is this argument about? It's arguments like these that are pushing me from the game (GW themselves mostly). I am a player that plays by what the rules says..Not what is intended..not what majority thinks it is.. or what it implies. 99.9% of the time.. honestly..the rules are not complicated to read, nor do they have hidden meanings. These long debates and hidden meanings come from us the players who try and shoehorn in our own ideas and meanings. -shrugs- Just my opinion which means nothing to anyone but me but... honestly guys..Sometimes i wonder if the other gaming communities are like us arguing about rules. Just my two cents, I'll go back to lurking.

 Arrathon wrote:
Can i ask a question...You guys know what their saying in these faq's.. You know ba and gk do not loose their fliers..so..what exactly is this argument about?

Many people enjoy debating for the sake of the debate.

It's arguments like these that are pushing me from the game (GW themselves mostly). I am a player that plays by what the rules says..Not what is intended..not what majority thinks it is.. or what it implies. 99.9% of the time

So you play by what's written but debates over what's written are driving you from the game?

.. honestly..the rules are not complicated to read, nor do they have hidden meanings. These long debates and hidden meanings come from us the players who try and shoehorn in our own ideas and meanings. -shrugs- Just my opinion which means nothing to anyone but me but... honestly guys..Sometimes i wonder if the other gaming communities are like us arguing about rules. Just my two cents, I'll go back to lurking.

I would bet that you're not playing by what the rules say most of the time. You're playing by the obvious rules as intended. Because playing by the letter of the RAW results in an unplayable game.

Actually, yes i do play by whats in my rulebook..not what is interpreted by the masses. Actually, Everyone at my local shop plays by the rulebook, and our games are just fine.and no rules as written is not a unplayable game..it IS the game. You don't buy a 80.00$ rule book to use the rules inside as to what you think they mean.

I agree with it is human nature to argue/debate so you got me there.

It's not so much the debates, its the slick LANGUAGE who try and get away with what they think the rules should mean. It's just not that fun anymore to me.

And again, i was just adding my two cents, not looking for a spitting contest.

@Arrathon it's really simple if the rules where written in an unambiguous way then there would be no room for debate. Blame the rule writers not the gaming community.

 Byte wrote:
From the new errata for Death from the Skies.

Page 68 – Army List, Stormraven Gunship, Grey Knights
Stormraven Gunship.
Change first sentence to read ‘Stormravens in detachments
chosen from Codex: Grey Knights are Fast Attack and must
replace their stormstrike missiles with mindstrike missiles
(pg 64).

It's not even out yet and already has an errata? GW is quality at it's finest.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
@Arrathon it's really simple if the rules where written in an unambiguous way then there would be no room for debate. Blame the rule writers not the gaming community.

No modern game of any complexity exists without FAQs and debate.

 Arrathon wrote:
Actually, yes i do play by whats in my rulebook..not what is interpreted by the masses. Actually, Everyone at my local shop plays by the rulebook, and our games are just fine.and no rules as written is not a unplayable game..it IS the game. You don't buy a 80.00$ rule book to use the rules inside as to what you think they mean.

So where do Hive Guard, helmeted Marines, Zoanthropes, and other models without eyes draw line of sight from?
Cite the page in the rulebook please. You must be able to since you play by what's in there.

And again, i was just adding my two cents, not looking for a spitting contest.

I'm not either. I'm just trying to show you that things are not as absolutely clear as you pretend.