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Void__Dragon wrote: I told Blax on Skype apparently some people don't like Mechanicum.
He said: "Apparently some people also like Legion. Some people just want to watch the world burn Shane."
I don't like Legion either. The Alpha Legion's sooper sphesshul tactics, combined with the fact that they fought for Horus because they wanted him to lose, sours the novel. Its a shame, because its well written and the characters are nicely done, but the plot is just... unpleasant.
@OP: I have to ask about Fear to Tread. If you knew you didn't like the author and you didn't like the subject matter, why did you bother with it? Just trying to get the HH series in it's entirety?
I'm a heresy junkie and I wanted to see how Sanguinius will be portayed...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
It goes out of its way to give context to Battle for the Abyss in a meaningful, and in my opinion, satisfying way as well as explains why the Word Bearers were dying in droves in KNF.
Even if Betrayer was the greatest sci fi ever written it would not change the fact that Battle for the Abyss is among the worst.
The Dalia parts of the former were tiring occasionally, but I still loved the novel.
Admittedly, it was the first HH novel I read; which probably influences my view somewhat, but I disagree with KK's criticisms nonetheless.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
I loved Legion, but found Mechanicum about as tedious as Kid Kyoto did.
Apparently, there are some novels loathed by everyone, and some that are debatable. Guess Legion and Mechanicum are the latter, Battle for the Abyss is the former.
"We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "feth" on their airplanes because it's obscene!" (Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now)
And you know what's funny? "feth" is actually censored on a forum about a dystopia where the nice guys are the ones who kill only millions of innocents, not billions.
Both Mechanicum and Legion are love-it-or-hate-it type novels, but Battle for the Abyss is just a hate-it novel. You can't argue that its good. You can't even try.
I've seen people give positive reviews to Superbabies. Your point?
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Well, as someone who has played the My Immortal drinking game with Vodka I have to agree, it can't be that bad.
On that note I can't seem to remember anything about the drinking game past chapter six, but my wife says it's for the better.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
C.S. Goto's 'novels', and Battle for the Abyss are the only ones I actively hate, but Mechanicum and Fulgrim straddle the border between like and dislike, mechanicum leaning towards "like" and Fulgrim towards "dislike".
Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation
Never read any C.S. Goto, because I hear nothing but hate...
But personally I didn't care much for Flight of the Eisenstein. The only particularly memorable part for me was the whole "Lord of the Flies" and epic fight on the moon bit.
I suppose I was disappointed with it because I was told it was about the Death Guard, and so I was hoping that I'd get some awesome character study of Mortarion, and an insight into his motives for joining the heresy. (Like I got from Thousand Sons with Magnus, or Betrayer for Angron)
I have really got a beef with the eldar path books (not the dark eldar ones, they are AMAZING!!!!)
Path of the warrior has terrible charcter evalution. Im angry, im a striking scorpion, im now an exarch so that first person is dead. Im now a pheonix lord so that second person is dead. I mean we spend half a book on a boring charcter, he might as well progress, but no! He has to totaly disapear into someone who i dont like reading the name of, who then after the other half of the book also goes and disappears into Karandras. Man that book hd a bad story line.
Followed by path of the outcast which i found....tollerable. Slightly better character progression as now its Im a pilot, Now im a ranger, now im a corsair, now im a corsair prince. But at least he is the same character all the way through unlike the scorpion who runs off to be an exarch. It is saved by a few chapters involving harlequins being awesome, A solitare fighting KoS and the interaction between craftworld and dark eldar.
Legion of the damned is just plain terrible... I got about halfway through and then just gave up
Forgetable characters, bad writing, not enough legion of the damned (I assume they turn up later in the book, but there is no way I can make it through that crap)
I also second Fear to tread and No know fear
Fear to tread just lost my interest, but I managed to battle through it, and no know fear was just came accross as the prime example of bolter porn.
"Define irony.... a bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band killed in a plane crash" Garland Greene
Frankenberry wrote: The first Dark Angel book I saw printed, the one where the bio-chemical virus get's released in their fortress and they can't open the doors.
Probably one of the biggest piles of crap I've ever read.
Seriously? I really enjoyed that book. It was the first BL book I ever read
"Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!" - Satsuki Kiryuin, Kill la Kill
No know fear was just came accross as the prime example of bolter porn.
I second this. Everyone I know rates it very highly, because it's Dan Abnett, but it mostly bored me. The most interesting sections were the insights into the mind of the Ultramarines Dreadnought. The Ultramarines are a boring legion, so I doubt anyone could have really made me care about their characters, but as a fan of the Word Bearers, I found they were extremely dull in comparison to the way they're portrayed in The First Heretic and Betrayer.
I certainly wouldn't re-read.
No know fear was just came accross as the prime example of bolter porn.
I second this. Everyone I know rates it very highly, because it's Dan Abnett, but it mostly bored me. The most interesting sections were the insights into the mind of the Ultramarines Dreadnought. The Ultramarines are a boring legion, so I doubt anyone could have really made me care about their characters, but as a fan of the Word Bearers, I found they were extremely dull in comparison to the way they're portrayed in The First Heretic and Betrayer.
I certainly wouldn't re-read.
seconded - it was boring but I somehow manage to finish it...audio was even worse...
Check for dramatis personae
Spoiler:
Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the XIII Legion
Tauro Nicodemus, Tetrarch of Ultramar (Saramanth), Primarch’s Champion
Eikos Lamiad, Tetrarch of Ultramar (Konor), Primarch’s Champion
Justarius, Venerable Dreadnought
Telemechrus, Contemptor Dreadnought
Marius Gage, Chapter Master, 1st Chapter
Remus Ventanus, Captain, 4th Company
Kiuz Selaton, Sergeant, 4th Company
Lyros Sydance, Captain, 4th Company
Archo, Sergeant, 4th Company
Ankrion, Sergeant, 4th Company
Barkha, Sergeant, 4th Company
Naron Vattian, Scout, 4th Company
Saur Damocles, Captain, 6th Company
Domitian, Sergeant, 6th Company
Braellen, 6th Company
Androm, 6th Company
Evexian, Captain, 7th Company
Amant, 7th Company
Lorchas, Captain, 9th Company
Aethon, Captain, 19th Company
Erikon Gaius, Captain, 21st Company
Tylos Rubio, 21st Company
Honoria, Captain, 23rd Company
Teus Sullus, Captain, 39th Company
Greavus, Sergeant, 39th Company
Kaen Atreus, Chapter Master, 6th Chapter
Klord Empion, Chapter Master, 9th Chapter
Vared, Chapter Master, 11th Chapter
Ekritus, Captain, 111th Company
Phrastorex, Captain, 112th Company
Anchise, Sergeant, 112th Company
Sharad Antoli, Chapter Master, 13th Chapter
Taerone, Captain, 135th Company
Aeonid Thiel, Sergeant, 135th Company [marked]
Evido Banzor, Chapter Master, 16th Chapter
Heutonicus, Captain, 161st Company
Jaer, Apothecary, 161st Company
Kerso, 161st Company
Bormarus, 161st Company
Zabo, 161st Company
Anteros, 161st Company
Honorius Luciel, Captain, 209th Company
The XVII Legion ‘Word Bearers’
Lorgar Aurelian, Primarch of the XVII Legion
Kor Phaeron, The Black Cardinal
Erebus, Dark Apostle
Argel Tal, Gal Vorbak
Essember Zote, Gal Vorbak
Foedral Fell, Commander
Morpal Cxir, Commander
Hol Beloth, Commander
Maloq Kartho, Apostle to Hol Beloth
Sorot Tchure
Ulmor Nul
Cults
The Ushmetar Kaul, ‘The Brotherhood of the Knife’
Criol Fowst, Confided Lieutenant
The Tzenvar Kaul, ‘The Recursive Family’
The Jeharwanate, ‘The Ring’
The Kaul Mandari, ‘The Gene-kin’
Vil Teth, Gene-named
Imperial Personae
Uhl Kehal Hesst, Server of Instrumentation, Mechanicum
Meer Edv Tawren, Magos of Analyticae
Magos Uldort
Arook Serotid, Master of Skitarii
Cyramica, Skitarii
Shipmaster Sazar, Macragge’s Honour
Bohan Zedoff
Representative Macragge’s Honour
Magos Pelot,
Shipmaster Ouon Sanctity of Saramanth
Hommed,
Seneschal Arbute
Oll Persson
Graft, Servitor Menial
Hebet Zybes,
Katt
Neve Rane
And I only remeber Guiliman and WB from that book lol...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
beej138 wrote: Legion of the damned is just plain terrible... I got about halfway through and then just gave up
Forgetable characters, bad writing, not enough legion of the damned (I assume they turn up later in the book, but there is no way I can make it through that crap)
IIRC, the LotD shows up for eight pages and then vanishes, never to be seen again.
No know fear was just came accross as the prime example of bolter porn.
I second this. Everyone I know rates it very highly, because it's Dan Abnett, but it mostly bored me. The most interesting sections were the insights into the mind of the Ultramarines Dreadnought. The Ultramarines are a boring legion, so I doubt anyone could have really made me care about their characters, but as a fan of the Word Bearers, I found they were extremely dull in comparison to the way they're portrayed in The First Heretic and Betrayer.
I certainly wouldn't re-read.
There are too many characters, with similar sounding names, ranks, and roles, with too little time in the limelight. You don't get attached to any of them. They all just blurr into the same generic character. Then there's the fact that Abnett made Ollanius Pius, a normal dude who sacrificed his life for the Emperor, into a time traveling teleporting immortal. And, last but not least, there's the fact that the Word Bearers decide to throw away their victory away just for the sake of mustache twirling villainy. The Word Bearers try to take the ships intact, despite the fact that more than half of the Ultramarines are still alive. Then Kor Phaeron, who is about to kill Reboute Guilliman, decides it would be cooler to turn Reboute to chaos. This might've been a good idea, except for the fact that they're in the middle of a heated melee. Kor Phaeron gets his heart torn out, and then survives for the sake of maintaining the canon.
Of what I have read, Necropolis is the worst. Not to say that the book is bad (just kind of average), but of the Ghosts series, to me it is by far the most tedious to read, and is chock full of missed opportunities.
I also made a drinking game for each time Abnett used the words "Sheer" and "vast" to describe something. I swear that there is at least one instance where Sheer is used three separate times in the same paragraph.
No know fear was just came accross as the prime example of bolter porn.
I second this. Everyone I know rates it very highly, because it's Dan Abnett, but it mostly bored me. The most interesting sections were the insights into the mind of the Ultramarines Dreadnought. The Ultramarines are a boring legion, so I doubt anyone could have really made me care about their characters, but as a fan of the Word Bearers, I found they were extremely dull in comparison to the way they're portrayed in The First Heretic and Betrayer.
I certainly wouldn't re-read.
seconded - it was boring but I somehow manage to finish it...audio was even worse...
Check for dramatis personae
[/spoiler]
And I only remeber Guiliman and WB from that book lol...
I really liked the Mechanicus characters in that novel and was less interested in the Astartes.............
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Frankenberry wrote: The first Dark Angel book I saw printed, the one where the bio-chemical virus get's released in their fortress and they can't open the doors.
Probably one of the biggest piles of crap I've ever read.
Seriously? I really enjoyed that book. It was the first BL book I ever read
It wasn't bad writing I don't think, the story was just crap. I've enjoyed reading the Ultramarine novels, the Ragnar series, even the one off Space Marine battle books. But this one was just so lame I wanted the time I spent reading it, back. The entire book shows how supremely stupid space marines can be and honestly? Should have been written from the perspective of the Fallen they're dealing with, THAT would have been interesting.
Shadowkeepers (4000 points)
3rd Company (3000 points)
Well, I liked Battle for the Abyss, Mechanicum AND Legion ... So I'll probably skew the numbers a bit but here we go.
I struggle to get through anything by Swallow. The first BA omnibus was completely rediculous with BA's killing each other off left and right like it was nothing at all and that whole "Spear of Telesto" garbage. Then he made Tycho a patsie for a no name character that will only ever be in that one stupid book. A freaking patsie. No. Just no. I struggled with "Flight of the Eisenstien" as well (took me a year to get though it - I can usually read two or three novels in a month ...) but I'm not sure why. I know a lot of people really like that one.
Couldn't finish "Fall of Damnos" either, but I did like "Siege of Castellax".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/06 15:20:39
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Tycho wrote: Well, I liked Battle for the Abyss, Mechanicum AND Legion ... So I'll probably skew the numbers a bit but here we go.
I struggle to get through anything by Swallow. The first BA omnibus was completely rediculous with BA's killing each other off left and right like it was nothing at all and that whole "Spear of Telesto" garbage. Then he made Tycho a patsie for a no name character that will only ever be in that one stupid book. A freaking patsie. No. Just no. I struggled with "Flight of the Eisenstien" as well (took me a year to get though it - I can usually two or three novels in a month ...) but I'm not sure why. I know a lot of people really like that one.
Couldn't finish "Fall of Damnos" either, but I did like "Siege of Castellax".
Damnos was a hard read I admit, but it was a nice change to see the Ultrasmurfs actually have to work in order to win (or in this case, lose). I bought Abyss, still haven't gotten around to reading it.
Shadowkeepers (4000 points)
3rd Company (3000 points)
Damnos was a hard read I admit, but it was a nice change to see the Ultrasmurfs actually have to work in order to win (or in this case, lose). I bought Abyss, still haven't gotten around to reading it.
I can see why many disliked Abyss. It is definitely very different from the other HH novels I've read. That might actually be why I liked it though. It was a good change of pace.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Know No Fear was terrible, reasons already stated and shonky tense structure. Horrible.
Prospero Burns was even worse. Low point of the series for me. Much of it seemed to be building up to something, then it finished. If I ever read the words "Wet leopard-growl" again, I'll remove someone's lungs.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:If 40K has Future Rifles, and Future Tanks, and Future Artillery, and Future Airplanes and Future Grenades and Future Bombs, then contextually Future Swords seem somewhat questionable to use, since it means crossing Future Open Space to get Future Shot At.
Polonius wrote:I categorically reject any statement that there is such a thing as too much boob.
Coolyo294 wrote:Short answer: No.
Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Shadowkeepers (4000 points)
3rd Company (3000 points) 
I really enjoyed that book. It was the first 
