Giant models this edition =super heavy tanks soon?

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**Ascalam**

GW produced a Stompa too.

No rules for it in the Ork codex

..... Yet

**ausYenLoWang**

-Loki- wrote:
Selym wrote:
ausYenLoWang wrote:
Vineheart01 wrote:
arent Baneblades Str D? To hell with that. Thats literally the only reason i hate apoc games, Str D is what its based around 99% of the time. So many awesome and fun looking models, cant use them because a random Str D with 10-tables worth of range snipes them turn 1.

and this is the basis of all the anti FW stuff....... riiiiiight here....

I thought only the volcano cannon was a destroyer. The baneblade's main armament doesn't do that...

I think that was ausYenLoWangs point. The basis for a lot of anti FW complaints is simply ignorance.

yarp you got it there, people have no idea what half the models do, all they look at is the titans and go NOOO LOOK, so all FW is considered to be apoc only. instead of people learning what the models can do OR just being open to the notion of them, and when one turns up at a game look over is data sheet and go ohh yeah, rather then the usual jump and scream "burn the heretic" at the sight of a FW book.

the baneblades concession to apoc is SP instead of HP. and superheavies wont make normal games of 40k. they are in 30k though in the LOW slot. The decimator dread for CSM is very much equipped like a forgefiend (butcher canons instead of hades ac with the same stats, but some other weapon options) , but cost around 300 pts iirc.

**Vineheart01**

i could actually see the Stompa going in the normal Dex, just be pricy as hell lol. Cut off the Apoc weapon upgrades and now its just a very beefy walker with loads of average guns and maybe one bigger (but not massive) gun.
That meaning no Lifta Droppa since thats apoc stuff rofl. Lifta Droppa in normal games would be scary.

**bibblles**

As fun as this would be (especially for me), I seriously doubt it. Things could get seriously out of hand in a big hurry. It's not just a question of scale though, baneblades are big and have big templates. And the problems don't stop there. Apoc doesn't use force organization, instead they use battle formations, these organize the armies and add special rules at a cost of points. There's also the strategic assets, and size of the battlefield. Put simply, apocalypse is designed around being a big game, and regular 40k is designed for tables.

**Selym**

-Loki- wrote:
Selym wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
Selym wrote:
ausYenLoWang wrote:
Vineheart01 wrote:
arent Baneblades Str D? To hell with that. Thats literally the only reason i hate apoc games, Str D is what its based around 99% of the time. So many awesome and fun looking models, cant use them because a random Str D with 10-tables worth of range snipes them turn 1.

and this is the basis of all the anti FW stuff....... riiiiiight here....

I thought only the volcano cannon was a destroyer. The baneblade's main armament doesn't do that...

I think that was ausYenLoWangs point. The basis for a lot of anti FW complaints is simply ignorance.

Well, I think we all know the answer to the ignorance: Disallow destroyer weapons. That still leaves about 98% of FW stuff.

You're still not getting it. Even saying 'disallow destroyer weapons' to these people is the same as 'disallow Forgeworld', because there's a huge amount of ignorance on just how good Forgeworld units are. The idea that someone thinks a Baneblade has a destroyer weapon, a unit that never had one in its Forgeworld incarnation (because destroyer weapons didn't even exist then) and never had one when GW took the kit for Apocalypse either, shows how much people don't know about Forgeworld stuff, let alone GW stuff.

I understand your point there, but it seems a little silly to me. Figuring out if something has a destroyer weapon is pretty much: "Does it usually go on a titan model? Is it a titan's CCW, or a gun that was named after what volcanoes do? That's destroyer."

**Peregrine**

Selym wrote:
I understand your point there, but it seems a little silly to me. Figuring out if something has a destroyer weapon is pretty much: "Does it usually go on a titan model? Is it a titan's CCW, or a gun that was named after what volcanoes do? That's destroyer."

The point is that many people don't KNOW that. They hear "FW" and they immediately think that it must be some kind of super-Baneblade with 100x 10" blast D-weapons.

**Selym**

Peregrine wrote:
Selym wrote:
I understand your point there, but it seems a little silly to me. Figuring out if something has a destroyer weapon is pretty much: "Does it usually go on a titan model? Is it a titan's CCW, or a gun that was named after what volcanoes do? That's destroyer."

The point is that many people don't KNOW that. They hear "FW" and they immediately think that it must be some kind of super-Baneblade with 100x 10" blast D-weapons.

Ah, well. Maybe sometime in the future I'll go on a crusade with non-apoc FW rulebooks and armies, and educate them.

**silvu**

It would be nice!

**overlordweasel**

I think the Monolith is the only current "heavy" vehicle.

**Peregrine**

overlordweasel wrote:
I think the Monolith is the only current "heavy" vehicle.

LRBT.

**AtomicEngineer**

This image has been floating around my local gaming club recently, not sure if its real but it certainly looks like chaos are getting a super heavy tank..thing based on an epic model

Spoiler:

Although you guys might already know about it and im a slowpoke

**Rumbleguts**

ausYenLoWang wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
Selym wrote:
ausYenLoWang wrote:
Vineheart01 wrote:
arent Baneblades Str D? To hell with that. Thats literally the only reason i hate apoc games, Str D is what its based around 99% of the time. So many awesome and fun looking models, cant use them because a random Str D with 10-tables worth of range snipes them turn 1.

and this is the basis of all the anti FW stuff....... riiiiiight here....

I thought only the volcano cannon was a destroyer. The baneblade's main armament doesn't do that...

I think that was ausYenLoWangs point. The basis for a lot of anti FW complaints is simply ignorance.

yarp you got it there, people have no idea what half the models do, all they look at is the titans and go NOOO LOOK, so all FW is considered to be apoc only. instead of people learning what the models can do OR just being open to the notion of them, and when one turns up at a game look over is data sheet and go ohh yeah, rather then the usual jump and scream "burn the heretic" at the sight of a FW book.

the baneblades concession to apoc is SP instead of HP. and superheavies wont make normal games of 40k. they are in 30k though in the LOW slot. The decimator dread for CSM is very much equipped like a forgefiend (butcher canons instead of hades ac with the same stats, but some other weapon options) , but cost around 300 pts iirc.

Well, lets be fair. Its not as if the information as to what these things do is easy to come by, at least legally. Unless you wanted to shell out, what 42 pounds sterling, per book and Forgeworld doesn't seem to give a list of what vehicles are in what books and they don't bother to send you a basic datafax of what the vehicle does if you purchase one! I think most people have good reason to be somewhat concerned when someone plunks a completely unknown model on the table, which might have rules that interact in funky ways. It doesn't take much reading on 40k sites like this to find people talking about how they have run into people using a rule in a regular codex to gain an advantage, only to find out they were using the rules completely wrong.

I like the looks of quite a bit of the Forgeworld stuff, I just want access to the rules on the things without having to take out a house loan before I am willing to play against them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vineheart01 wrote:
i could actually see the Stompa going in the normal Dex, just be pricy as hell lol. Cut off the Apoc weapon upgrades and now its just a very beefy walker with loads of average guns and maybe one bigger (but not massive) gun.
That meaning no Lifta Droppa since thats apoc stuff rofl. Lifta Droppa in normal games would be scary.

Pretty sure orcs had lifta droppas way back in 2nd ed. Although I have no idea if they are as good as the ones on the Stompa. Never played orcs but one of my friends did. I loved reading his codex, it was always amusing.

**Mr Morden**

Unless you wanted to shell out, what 42 pounds sterling, per book and Forgeworld doesn't seem to give a list of what vehicles are in what books and they don't bother to send you a basic datafax of what the vehicle does if you purchase one! I think most people have good reason to be somewhat concerned when someone plunks a completely unknown model on the table, which might have rules that interact in funky ways

Codexes are each £30 and unlikely to not go up again - I used to own every one but given up now since the price hikes - how many other people own legitmate copies of every codex now?

If someone plonks the model down - he should have the rules and you can look through - same as if he brough out a Codex unit I don;t have the book for. I worry more if someone plonks 3 Valkyries down on the table and I know the rules for them.............

What GW kit includes the rules for each unit in the box apart from the starter set?

**ausYenLoWang**

AtomicEngineer wrote:
This image has been floating around my local gaming club recently, not sure if its real but it certainly looks like chaos are getting a super heavy tank..thing based on an epic model

Spoiler:

Although you guys might already know about it and im a slowpoke

yeah its an APOC unit... and cos of its looks it better have some sweet rules. eg tank shock and kill 20 orks (mow the grass) regain a SP

Chaos also bet baneblades, thunderhawks, reavers, warhounds and anything else in the Loyalists lists as well as a few other nice items

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rumbleguts wrote:
ausYenLoWang wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
Selym wrote:
ausYenLoWang wrote:
Vineheart01 wrote:
arent Baneblades Str D? To hell with that. Thats literally the only reason i hate apoc games, Str D is what its based around 99% of the time. So many awesome and fun looking models, cant use them because a random Str D with 10-tables worth of range snipes them turn 1.

and this is the basis of all the anti FW stuff....... riiiiiight here....

I thought only the volcano cannon was a destroyer. The baneblade's main armament doesn't do that...

I think that was ausYenLoWangs point. The basis for a lot of anti FW complaints is simply ignorance.

yarp you got it there, people have no idea what half the models do, all they look at is the titans and go NOOO LOOK, so all FW is considered to be apoc only. instead of people learning what the models can do OR just being open to the notion of them, and when one turns up at a game look over is data sheet and go ohh yeah, rather then the usual jump and scream "burn the heretic" at the sight of a FW book.

the baneblades concession to apoc is SP instead of HP. and superheavies wont make normal games of 40k. they are in 30k though in the LOW slot. The decimator dread for CSM is very much equipped like a forgefiend (butcher canons instead of hades ac with the same stats, but some other weapon options) , but cost around 300 pts iirc.

and just a quick one here as well, someone plonks some giant FW unit down, go cough cough do you mind producing the book with the rules for this (aka dex) so i can read up on them prior to deployment.... ohh its a superheavey you cant use that sorry its not legal for normal 40k yadda yadda

Well, lets be fair. Its not as if the information as to what these things do is easy to come by, at least legally. Unless you wanted to shell out, what 42 pounds sterling, per book and Forgeworld doesn't seem to give a list of what vehicles are in what books and they don't bother to send you a basic datafax of what the vehicle does if you purchase one! I think most people have good reason to be somewhat concerned when someone plunks a completely unknown model on the table, which might have rules that interact in funky ways. It doesn't take much reading on 40k sites like this to find people talking about how they have run into people using a rule in a regular codex to gain an advantage, only to find out they were using the rules completely wrong.

I like the looks of quite a bit of the Forgeworld stuff, I just want access to the rules on the things without having to take out a house loan before I am willing to play against them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vineheart01 wrote:
i could actually see the Stompa going in the normal Dex, just be pricy as hell lol. Cut off the Apoc weapon upgrades and now its just a very beefy walker with loads of average guns and maybe one bigger (but not massive) gun.
That meaning no Lifta Droppa since thats apoc stuff rofl. Lifta Droppa in normal games would be scary.

Pretty sure orcs had lifta droppas way back in 2nd ed. Although I have no idea if they are as good as the ones on the Stompa. Never played orcs but one of my friends did. I loved reading his codex, it was always amusing.

**kronk**

My knee jerk reaction is no. Superheavies will stay in Planet Strike, Apocalypse, and other scenario games.

However, they fit fliers into the standard rule book. That might have been a test run that would later open the door for super heavies in 7th edition basic rule book.

I can see it, but I'd rather they left them the hell in Apocalypse.

**ausYenLoWang**

What if they went with a slot like 30k's Lord Of War, only usable above 2k points and can only be a superheavy?

**kronk**

Define "they". Super heavy tanks only? Anything, including Titans? I don't ever want to see a Titan outside of apocalypse.

That might work for the likes of baneblades, but they would still dominate in games of 2000 points, I feel. Especially the ones with transport capacity and fire points.

**ausYenLoWang**

sorry they i meant 7th ed.

is a titan classified as a superheavy? i thought they were a step above?
i was thinking the likes of superheavies (baneblade, THawks, stompas, that kind of thing, screw a titan, thats as you say a NO

i was thinking 7th ed havinga new FOC that has 1 slot at 2k for a Superheavy.

**Thatguyhsagun**

ausYenLoWang wrote:
sorry they i meant 7th ed.

is a titan classified as a superheavy? i thought they were a step above?
i was thinking the likes of superheavies (baneblade, THawks, stompas, that kind of thing, screw a titan, thats as you say a NO

i was thinking 7th ed havinga new FOC that has 1 slot at 2k for a Superheavy.

Titans and Stompas are Super Heavy Walkers
Make it 2001+ points that way nobody gets duped into playing against one. Although we already have to play "1999+1" games this edition.

**ausYenLoWang**

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
ausYenLoWang wrote:
sorry they i meant 7th ed.

is a titan classified as a superheavy? i thought they were a step above?
i was thinking the likes of superheavies (baneblade, THawks, stompas, that kind of thing, screw a titan, thats as you say a NO

i was thinking 7th ed havinga new FOC that has 1 slot at 2k for a Superheavy.

Titans and Stompas are Super Heavy Walkers
Make it 2001+ points that way nobody gets duped into playing against one. Although we already have to play "1999+1" games this edition.

thats why i went 2000 cos thats the point you get a second FOC in this edition

and ahhh so titans are a superheavy, shame apoc 2 is coming out and they wont get re ruled to a titan unit, so superheavy is for other things... then that could sort that out..

**Engine of War**

I highly doubt the full bore super heavies will be in standard battles. A baneblade alone carries enough firepower and armor to obliterate nearly 5 times its points value in a single barrage.
not to mention the numerous baneblade variants and all their weapons of mass destruction.

At most the smaller "Heavy" tanks like the Malcador or some other tank that is larger then the Leman Russ could be introduced. not sure what exactly. but it would be interesting.

If I remember right. in terms of size.
Leman Russ -> Malcador -> Macharius -> Baneblade-> Levthiathan -> other craziness.

**-Loki-**

ausYenLoWang wrote:
Thatguyhsagun wrote:
ausYenLoWang wrote:
sorry they i meant 7th ed.

is a titan classified as a superheavy? i thought they were a step above?
i was thinking the likes of superheavies (baneblade, THawks, stompas, that kind of thing, screw a titan, thats as you say a NO

i was thinking 7th ed havinga new FOC that has 1 slot at 2k for a Superheavy.

Titans and Stompas are Super Heavy Walkers
Make it 2001+ points that way nobody gets duped into playing against one. Although we already have to play "1999+1" games this edition.

thats why i went 2000 cos thats the point you get a second FOC in this edition

and ahhh so titans are a superheavy, shame apoc 2 is coming out and they wont get re ruled to a titan unit, so superheavy is for other things... then that could sort that out..

They don't need to be classified as anything else. The distinction between Monstrous Creature/Gargantuan Creature and Vehicle/Super Heavy Vehicle is plenty. If it's super heavy or gargantuan, it's limited to Apocalypse. If they want to move them to regular 40k, stop classifying them as gargantuan or super heavy and stick them in a codex. They did exactly this with the Trygon.

**Peregrine**

Engine of War wrote:
I highly doubt the full bore super heavies will be in standard battles. A baneblade alone carries enough firepower and armor to obliterate nearly 5 times its points value in a single barrage.

Err, no. A Baneblade is NOT killing 2500 points of stuff in a single barrage, unless you do something stupid like put a unit of "how expensive can I make them" death company into perfect pie plate formation with no cover.

This of course is the problem: most people don't actually understand what Apocalypse-scale units are capable of, they just think "OMG HUGE TANK IT MUST KILL EVERYTHING" no matter how weak the actual rules are.

**BryllCream**

A baneblade can probably kill its own points worth in a single turn of shooting. When you factor in that it's very hard to destroy in a normal game of 40k, it'd definitely be way OP as-is.

But feel free to take one person's exaggeration and disprove it to make a point.

**-Loki-**

BryllCream wrote:
A baneblade can probably kill its own points worth in a single turn of shooting.

If you're standing high points cost units in the open in front of it, it sure can. If its battle cannon or demolisher cannon miss, it's not killing much at all. If there's only low cost squads it can see, it's not killing much at all.

**Engine of War**

Peregrine wrote:
Engine of War wrote:
I highly doubt the full bore super heavies will be in standard battles. A baneblade alone carries enough firepower and armor to obliterate nearly 5 times its points value in a single barrage.

Err, no. A Baneblade is NOT killing 2500 points of stuff in a single barrage, unless you do something stupid like put a unit of "how expensive can I make them" death company into perfect pie plate formation with no cover.

This of course is the problem: most people don't actually understand what Apocalypse-scale units are capable of, they just think "OMG HUGE TANK IT MUST KILL EVERYTHING" no matter how weak the actual rules are.

I know it won't kill 2500 points. but it will do a serious amount of damage and a heck of a lot more damage then the heaviest weapons platform you could get in standard battles in terms of bullets thrown.

But still. I doubt that Baneblades and other super heavies would be brought into standards.

**Selym**

BryllCream wrote:
A baneblade can probably kill its own points worth in a single turn of shooting. When you factor in that it's very hard to destroy in a normal game of 40k, it'd definitely be way OP as-is.

But feel free to take one person's exaggeration and disprove it to make a point.

I'd agree with you if the Baneblade were facing an army of over 2000 points.
The Baneblade has the odd effect of being less effective the smaller the game is.

A small army will hide in heavy cover and throw Lascannon-equivalents at it, while it shuffles around looking for a target, and trying to not get stuck in terrain pieces...

**-Loki-**

Selym wrote:
BryllCream wrote:
A baneblade can probably kill its own points worth in a single turn of shooting. When you factor in that it's very hard to destroy in a normal game of 40k, it'd definitely be way OP as-is.

But feel free to take one person's exaggeration and disprove it to make a point.

I'd agree with you if the Baneblade were facing an army of over 2000 points.
The Baneblade has the odd effect of being less effective the smaller the game is.

A small army will hide in heavy cover and throw Lascannon-equivalents at it, while it shuffles around looking for a target, and trying to not get stuck in terrain pieces...

This is true. When Imperial Armour came out ages ago, my brother and a friend played a 'kill the Baneblade' game, 1500pts. The friend just used fast moving skimmers with multi meltas to stay out of Line of Sight, got close, and nuked it, while the Baneblade plinked away at scout squads in cover doing not much at all.

**Peregrine**

Engine of War wrote:
and a heck of a lot more damage then the heaviest weapons platform you could get in standard battles in terms of bullets thrown.

Not really. For 500 points you can get three LRBTs of various types, which are easily matching its firepower. And on defense the Baneblade isn't all that scary either, drop pod combi-melta sternguard and similar tank killers will deal with it just fine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Loki- wrote:
If there's only low cost squads it can see, it's not killing much at all.

Or vehicles. Against vehicles the Baneblade is 500 points for an ordnance lascannon, a demolisher cannon, and two single lascannons. It's underwhelming against even Rhinos, and nearly useless against anything with AV 14 or good cover saves.

**Selym**

The way I see it, it is possible that GW would give the IG codex a baneblade, as there is a realistic chance of winning against one.

Also, it has no destroyer weapons.