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Who wins? The guy who never practices, never works on any aspect of his game and buys the newest shoes or the guy with the old snkeaers but who is fit and practices and understands the game?
Like we've told you before in this thread, you are not going to be able to buy a tournament win. If you don't understand your army, don't understand the game and don't understand how to put what you have to work, you're never going to find success. Especially since it seems that you do nothing to prepare or practice. Right now, you're the out of shape kid who never plays basketball who rolls in with the most expensive sneakers thinking that they will make him good. Hint, it never works that way,
Its interesting, There is this family, it is obvious the father has alot of money, none of his kids are of working age, yet they all have 1-2 armies each.
These kids regularly get stomped by me and friends, people who put tons of soul into this game. There answer? Buy forge world. Guess who is still dieing and getting poor sportsman for whining?
King Pariah wrote: Believe it or not, there are some people who like to play for the sake of fun! However, unless GW returns to something remotely similar to the original sculpt, I will definitely NOT be touching Flayed Ones (who really aren't THAT gakky, just everything else is better).
Just did a Google search for "flayed one" to see what the new sculpts look like. I really shouldn't be surprised that the top row of the image search contains a "female" flayed one someone drew posing for the camera. But somehow that one still managed to make me shake my head.
Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!
BrianDavion wrote: Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man.
zilka86 wrote: So besides spending thousands of dollars to play this game i need thousands of playing hrs witb each army to be any good. then ever5yrs you have to buy the books all ove again and new models.
Really? If all that was required for a win was to purchase an army (which everyone that enters has done) then every tournament would end with ~100% of the players tied for first place.
You need to learn the game properly before you'll be able to design a good army list. You then need to further refine that list and learn how to use it. You then need to practice against common list archetypes, focusing especially on the ones that will be the most difficult. Etc. Etc.
At the very minimum, you need a rough plan of what you want to do in the first two turns of the game in each mission/deployment combination (18 combos).
The players that are taking home wins are doing this.
A couple of honest questions:
What games have you played at tournament level previously?
How old are you?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/27 05:59:15
zilka86 wrote: Thought it was like gw ware you need ever codex to play and ever army.
Who told you this? It's certainly not true. It helps if you have access to all of the army books but lots of players only ever play one army (with variations on the army over time).
zilka86 wrote: Thought it was like gw ware you need ever codex to play and ever army.
Who told you this? It's certainly not true. It helps if you have access to all of the army books but lots of players only ever play one army (with variations on the army over time).
I think the OP's statement right there proves that he was just trolling.
I play lots of board games that come withe ever thing you need to play. i thought this was like that but instead of ever thing in one box. they want you to buy ever thing separate to be albe to play. Also why don't the just seal models permade and not all units and wargear from the codex and tac can onlt have ms because the don't come with other heavy weapons options
His posts in other areas are the same sort as here. He bought a few armies for some reason, and is complaining because he can't win, or use them together, or whatever reason. I don't know if he's trolling, he may have honestly just wasted that much money. One way or another, the common factor is he doesn't actually listen to anyone, he only picks what he wants to hear(which for some reason is usually negative).
Mandrakes, mandrakes suck & are total garbage. But the models are gorgeous.
Me and my friends house rule it so they start the game with a pain token & holy hell they're actually amazing. But for balance sake just make kheradruakh an IC and let him join mandrakes if he chooses not to use his special deployment rule.
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zilka86 wrote: So besides spending thousands of dollars to play this game i need thousands of playing hrs witb each army to be any good. then ever5yrs you have to buy the books all ove again and new models.
Yes.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
zilka86 wrote: I play lots of board games that come withe ever thing you need to play. i thought this was like that but instead of ever thing in one box. they want you to buy ever thing separate to be albe to play. Also why don't the just seal models permade and not all units and wargear from the codex and tac can onlt have ms because the don't come with other heavy weapons options
Well, if it was all premade, then it'd be a whole lot harder for people to make an army their own which I think is a big attracting feature of 40k. With all the random bits, you can kit bash, convert, and just have fun making units that at the end of the day you can go, "This, this is me, this is what I like, this is boss and all other opinions on the matter are moot."
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
I'm trying to understand this thread. Are we talking about certain units that don't preform well and are expensive to take. because no one is talking about any specific units. so the title is a little misleading.
With that said
playing 40 games and fielding 5 different armies (I assume the average of 8 times with each of them) which is about 1 tournie with each army (so they would all be the same list). Does not in any way define what a force can actually do. Owning all the codexes, still doesn't replace experience.
After over 25 years and 6 editions of rules and suppliments, add-ons, house rules, and the FAQ pages of GW. Clear is never something I would say these rules were.
So on to what stinks - one players garbage unit is anothers saving grace. There are Army List, Placement, Tactics, Following the Rules, and of course the roll of the dice. All of these things will determine if you will win or lose.
I play Orks, my only gripe is that using the 4th Edition Codex has become very outdated with 6th Edition rules. Does that make Orks stink? Not in the slightest, but I don't play in GW events with Orks, because it would be a waste of money. But I do play friendly games and for the past 5 years, I haven't once heard anyone complain that my Orks were too powerful.
Not loud, on fire, or explodin' yer doin' et wrong
You also have to understand units ebb & flow in cost and effectiveness. I had the Tau army in fourth edition and they were pretty much the equivalent of hot garbage. Now, they are the new hawtness! It depends on the edition we are in and the codex for them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You also have to understand units ebb & flow in cost and effectiveness. I had the Tau army in fourth edition and they were pretty much the equivalent of hot garbage. Now, they are the new hawtness! It depends on the edition we are in and the codex for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/27 22:28:25
Sleg wrote: I'm trying to understand this thread. Are we talking about certain units that don't preform well and are expensive to take. because no one is talking about any specific units. so the title is a little misleading.
With that said
Basically the thread started with questioning why some units were just bad, because he wasn't winning with them. After a couple more posts, it became quite apparent that the issue is not that some units are bad(though some are), but that he is expecting to buy an army and auto-win because he spent money on it. We tried to explain why that wasn't the case, and he has since stopped coming to the thread after refusing to listen to our advice. He has made threads on FoW forums with similar questions/complaints, however.
Psienesis wrote: I think I've actually concluded that this guy is just.... rather dim.
Does that mean I have to turn in my "derpy guy with too much money to burn of the forum" card?
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Oh... I agree with you Troa and Psienesis. He is certainly the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.
So basically everyone's saying "Money doesn't buy you wins, but painted figures always do better than unpainted ones"
Not loud, on fire, or explodin' yer doin' et wrong
Sleg wrote: "Money doesn't buy you wins, but painted figures always do better than unpainted ones"
I don't get it, are you using painted figures there to mean figures that you've had for a long time and gotten used to? Or are you actually saying paint makes them better. I know you play orks, but belief in something doesn't make it so in this universe
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
there are many ways to suggest that a units 'stinks'
since we seem to be talking about units that are 'sub-par' then there are many... Space marine tactical squads are my stinker, whenever i used them or have faced then they never seem to do very much, whereas Gery Hunters/ Chaos marine squads seem to do far more. Mostly due to the fact they can take 2 special weapons that allows for more tactical flexibility- 2 plasmaguns/2 meltaguns are popular loadouts for a reason you know.
However practice makes perfect in nearly all cases, for tourneys practice the same list for weeks on end to make sure you are competent with it/make tweaks as you see fit. Even in random weekly gaming practice makes perfect, i'm gulity of taking different armies every now and then to let my brain crunch over different tactics and strategies, but you can always learn something
Sleg wrote: "Money doesn't buy you wins, but painted figures always do better than unpainted ones"
I don't get it, are you using painted figures there to mean figures that you've had for a long time and gotten used to? Or are you actually saying paint makes them better. I know you play orks, but belief in something doesn't make it so in this universe
That's just what they want you to think, like people who say you have to obey gravity. Well I say it's just a theory!
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
b-man wrote: Zilka86 is froggy27, I know this for a fact. Read froggys posts every one is the same. He asks for help then rebukes everyone who tries to help.
That was EXACTLY what I was thinking. Asking for advice, and then ignoring it. The impenetrable block of bad grammar/ spelling/ no punctuation.
"Define irony.... a bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band killed in a plane crash" Garland Greene
The thing I love about this game is that it can cater to a wide range of people. For the person that doesn't have alot of money or time, they can form a small army and learn how to play it through tons of trial and error. For the person with a disposable income and all the time in the world, they can form an epic looking army but may never truly learn how to play it. They may actually just love the hobby aspect of it. I've been playing for a year and half now and have accumulated over 7k points of space marines. Most of em I bought because I love the way they look. I have kit bashed Vanguard Vets that got played with for 2 games and then shelved because they didn't fit my play style. I have LotD that have never been played before but man they look sweet in my display case. I have a $600 Thunderhawk that's never seen a single Apoc game. I have units that suck for my playing style but I keep em because they look amazing when you put the entire army together. I've seen people suggest whirlwinds and I admittedly have a couple of em. I've tested em and now I wouldn't dream of adding them to my lists. But I'm winning more and more through tons of trial and error. I got into this game with a group of guys that have been playing for 15+ years so I had a hell of a lot of catching up to do. They kept asking me why my army changed up every 2nd or 3rd game and I told em I was testing out units to see how they worked or didn't work. I have collected 3 other armies besides my space marines and have yet to even come close to fielding em. We have an unbeaten Ork player in the group and only when I can beat him with my vanilla marines will I move on to another one of my armies. That's my personal goal but until that happens I'll continue to play my marines and keep learning. I played our cron player a couple of weekends ago with 2k points. We rolled big guns never tire and he parked his monolith on the center objective, let he flyer wreak havoc, and parked his barge on another objective and shot, and shot, and shot some more. I fielded nothing but foot troops and won 12-1...his one point coming from line breaker. I have learned to capitalize on mistakes when/if the opponent makes one and have been successful with units that some other players wouldn't dream of taking. Take your favorite of the 5 armies you have, and if you're not attached to the other armies, sell em as previously stated. I have all the codexes as well but I have em to just read the fluff and to know what some of the options are. Having a disposable income didn't help me to start getting wins. It was testing my units and finally coming up with my personal list that works for me. If I gave you the all troop list that I used last game which included 2 dev squads and an assault squad (which I've seen people on here refuse to take) and put you up against the same army I played against, I'm sure the outcome would be completely different. As would be with any game anyone on here has played. You absolutely can't use someone else's list to play your game. Build a list and go to the army list page, post it, and ask for feedback. People can tell you their experiences in which units function well or not so much. But until you actually test that list in a few games (not just one and move on) you'll never know how it works. Your question of "what units stink" is actually kind of pointless as one man's garbage is another man's gold.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/28 13:20:36
"Nobody truly understands the value of a minute until they only have one left"
1. They can be very pretty models for those who just like to paint and/or display.
2. Bad is subjective
3 More options the better
4. A lot of the "Bad" unit's, might not seem bad when they write and playtest the codex. They only seem bad once people figure out what to spam.
5. Sometimes, a bad unit, can be fantastic if someone figures out a clever way to use them.
I'd also say that you may need to ditch the tournament stuff for now. Get into a friendly group where you can discuss the game after its over. You seem to lose alot so ask your opponent where you messed up and how to fix it if you can't see that for yourself. It sounds like you're trying to win tournaments right out of the gate and you don't even know how to play. If you keep that up, you'll never win one. Step back, and start having fun. Then ramp up to the tournament scene and then be competitive.
"Nobody truly understands the value of a minute until they only have one left"
b-man wrote: Zilka86 is froggy27, I know this for a fact. Read froggys posts every one is the same. He asks for help then rebukes everyone who tries to help.
We don't like to mention that name around here. Brings shudders to even me, I have never seen someone who was so defensive as he was...(well, maybe Peregrine or Ailaros but at least they do it in good heart)
But anyway, what was the original point of this thread again? I actually forget ...
Ailaros wrote: It's the nature of a game where events are determined by random elements that the entirety of the jurisdiction of player skill is summed up as the ability to play the odds.
This is completely and laughably wrong. The mere fact that a random number generator exists does not remove all skill from a game. For example, MTG has a strong random element in what cards you draw but you'd be absolutely insane (or just ignorant) if you tried to claim that player skill in MTG is nothing more than playing the odds better than your opponent.
Although there are approx. 60 cards in a MTG deck. A die only has six sides. That means you can rely on luck more in 40k than inMTG.
RavenGuard55 wrote: The thing I love about this game is that it can cater to a wide range of people. For the person that doesn't have alot of money or time, they can form a small army and learn how to play it through tons of trial and error. For the person with a disposable income and all the time in the world, they can form an epic looking army but may never truly learn how to play it. They may actually just love the hobby aspect of it. I've been playing for a year and half now and have accumulated over 7k points of space marines. Most of em I bought because I love the way they look. I have kit bashed Vanguard Vets that got played with for 2 games and then shelved because they didn't fit my play style.
I have LotD that have never been played before but man they look sweet in my display case. I have a $600 Thunderhawk that's never seen a single Apoc game. I have units that suck for my playing style but I keep em because they look amazing when you put the entire army together. I've seen people suggest whirlwinds and I admittedly have a couple of em. I've tested em and now I wouldn't dream of adding them to my lists. But I'm winning more and more through tons of trial and error. I got into this game with a group of guys that have been playing for 15+ years so I had a hell of a lot of catching up to do.
They kept asking me why my army changed up every 2nd or 3rd game and I told em I was testing out units to see how they worked or didn't work. I have collected 3 other armies besides my space marines and have yet to even come close to fielding em. We have an unbeaten Ork player in the group and only when I can beat him with my vanilla marines will I move on to another one of my armies. That's my personal goal but until that happens I'll continue to play my marines and keep learning.
I played our cron player a couple of weekends ago with 2k points. We rolled big guns never tire and he parked his monolith on the center objective, let he flyer wreak havoc, and parked his barge on another objective and shot, and shot, and shot some more. I fielded nothing but foot troops and won 12-1...his one point coming from line breaker. I have learned to capitalize on mistakes when/if the opponent makes one and have been successful with units that some other players wouldn't dream of taking.
Take your favorite of the 5 armies you have, and if you're not attached to the other armies, sell em as previously stated. I have all the codexes as well but I have em to just read the fluff and to know what some of the options are. Having a disposable income didn't help me to start getting wins. It was testing my units and finally coming up with my personal list that works for me. If I gave you the all troop list that I used last game which included 2 dev squads and an assault squad (which I've seen people on here refuse to take) and put you up against the same army I played against, I'm sure the outcome would be completely different. As would be with any game anyone on here has played.
You absolutely can't use someone else's list to play your game. Build a list and go to the army list page, post it, and ask for feedback. People can tell you their experiences in which units function well or not so much. But until you actually test that list in a few games (not just one and move on) you'll never know how it works. Your question of "what units stink" is actually kind of pointless as one man's garbage is another man's gold.
I broke up your post into paragraphs so others can read it.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Who wins? The guy who never practices, never works on any aspect of his game and buys the newest shoes or the guy with the old snkeaers but who is fit and practices and understands the game?
Like we've told you before in this thread, you are not going to be able to buy a tournament win. If you don't understand your army, don't understand the game and don't understand how to put what you have to work, you're never going to find success. Especially since it seems that you do nothing to prepare or practice. Right now, you're the out of shape kid who never plays basketball who rolls in with the most expensive sneakers thinking that they will make him good. Hint, it never works that way,
Its interesting, There is this family, it is obvious the father has alot of money, none of his kids are of working age, yet they all have 1-2 armies each.
These kids regularly get stomped by me and friends, people who put tons of soul into this game. There answer? Buy forge world. Guess who is still dieing and getting poor sportsman for whining?
Maybe you could teach them? Most of my friends got real mad when they were new, Me and a few other vets started teaching em. It helped a lot.
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
5000 
4500 
Not loud, on fire, or explodin' 
yer doin' et wrong 
15,000 pts
8,000 pts 
that allows for more tactical flexibility- 2 plasmaguns/2 meltaguns are popular loadouts for a reason you know. 
Black Templars.
7800 Points Raven Guard - Always WIP
3000 Points Khorne
2000 Points Eldar 
