Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

bogalubov wrote:
To address the fluff concerns about legions. They're all supposed to be fractured. It's been 10,000 years. Most of the participants of the Horus Heresy are dead. Most of the legions don't do stuff together. The primarchs are off doing their own thing. People like Ahriman and Lucious are doing their own thing. There are no legions. That's why it's codex chaos space marines, not codex chaos legions.

To respond to this, not all of the Warbands are shattered into tiny little roaming warbands. The Word Bearers and Iron Warriors still maintain a level of cohesion and at least largely operate in chapter or larger sized formations in many instances. Even if they were shattered, everything that makes them Chaos Space Marines is after they stopped being Imperial Legions anyway, the Rubric of Ahriman for instance that created the Thousands Sons as they are now was entirely post heresy yet unique to that Legion. They don't stop being what they are just because they aren't all one completely unified Legion.

The FW Horus Heresy supplements are there to allow people to play corrupted legions.

Have you read the FW HH book? It's not about playing corrupted Legions, it's about playing Great Crusade era Imperial Space Marine Legions. There isn't a single Chaos related item in that book.

You can even create armies dedicated to the four chaos gods.

Nurgle terminators can't take FNP like plague marines? Well they never could in the 3.5 dex either.

Yes, but as noted earlier, not proper Cult units as GW has made the distinction (e.g. a CSM with a Mark of Nurgle is no Plague Marine, yet this distinction doesn't exist when it comes to Terminators, Lords, Bikes, Havocs, etc)

So the biggest gripe I see is that vehicles cannot be marked. Dreadnoughts can't take sonic weaponry. Well, why would a dreadnought have a sonic cannon. The guy is totally deprived of sensation. How can he even enjoy a sound cannon? He can't rock out properly to appreciate it.

A dreadnought is not deprived of sensation, just physical touch, and it's not like he's completely sane anyway.Besides, there are models for it.

I think that chaos is still a powerful book. Then again my nemisis plays them and can always finds new ways to use them in an unusual way. I can't speak for past editions but this book is a tough opponent for me to face.

As for making a more fluff happy list I would wait for some of these rumored supplements to arrive. I hear black legion is in the works but I can easily see a night lords or thousand sons supplement being store hits.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
That's boring players, not a boring codex.

You don't, in any way, need to play plague marines and helldrakes. You don't need to play plague marines and helldrakes to be competitive.

If you say "the only thing I like are a couple of units, therefore the codex only has a couple of units, which makes the codex boring" it's YOU MAKING the codex boring, not the sign of a boring codex.

I agree 100%... and honestly most of the crying I've seen over the years came from players with the most beard-neck, obnoxious "fluffy" 3rd ed armies like iron warriors etc...

I love this. "THE ONLY REASON THEY WANT IT IS CAUSE THEY WANT OPNESS"

By Fulgrim you need to change your tune, trying to shout down others and claim they want to be OP is probably true in some cases, but that doesn't mean many others don't want better options in general then what was fed to us.

bogalubov wrote:


So the biggest gripe I see is that vehicles cannot be marked. Dreadnoughts can't take sonic weaponry. Well, why would a dreadnought have a sonic cannon. The guy is totally deprived of sensation. How can he even enjoy a sound cannon? He can't rock out properly to appreciate it.

Excellent point. Somebody, somewhere, is going to quote you on that in their sig.

Demetrius of the Violators was a Dreadnought that had a sarcophagus which could open, revealing his true from allowing it to feel, he also had his nerves somehow attached to the plates on his frame to better experience sensation around him during battle. He was a very rare case granted.

But to say a Dreadnought would not have a Sonic Cannon because he can't enjoy it seems silly, he can still set about destroying his enemies better with a bigger more devastating gun. Sonic weaponry is the kinda signature weapon of a devotee of Slaanesh, why wouldn't you give your big symbol of eternal war in the Dark Princes name a weapon that reflects this. That's my opinion anyway.

The new codex is better than it's previous incarnation and it is fairly enjoyable but it does have a lot of missed opportunity and certain elements of it are annoying. Certain rules, especially the must challenge one, and the layout seem to be my main gripes.

Why is there no Slaanesh Daemon weapon, why does the Land Raider not have PotMS or at least a Chaos equivalent, why does the Daemonic Possession upgrade not grant the Daemon special rule as with the other Daemonic Engines.

I was also annoyed that we didn't get any new artwork on the front. The picture I love, but a new one would have been nice. Also some of the images in the book are rather poor and the fluff is quite sparse, and some of it seems a little contradictory.

Reading my post it seems like I am quite unhappy with it, I'm not, honest guv! It's good, it just could have been better. Compared to the Tau and Eldar ones it just seems a little stale and rehashed rather than a new attempt.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I love this. "THE ONLY REASON THEY WANT IT IS CAUSE THEY WANT OPNESS"

I'm also seeing a lot of this. The reason I'm not fond of the book isn't because it's weak, or I want to be OP, it's because we can't take distinct legions.

Chrysis wrote:
And the reason people complain about FNP on Nurgle Terminators is not for the sake of FNP, it's because they don't have FNP while the power armour troops do. The reason it wasn't a problem in 3.5 was because neither had FNP. It's a problem of consistency, not power. Why are Terminators less capable than Power Armour legionnaires? Why are the marines wearing Terminator Armour less skilled than the ones wearing Power Armour, even though they have to be more skilled to be allowed to wear the armour in the first place? Why does wearing Terminator Armour suddenly make you a recruit rather than a veteran?

Exactly. This is what I'm trying to say.

MarsNZ wrote:
How exactly does that make it a Black Legion codex? This opinion was bandied about in the BL supplement thread. There is exactly one BL special character. An unmarked lord unlocks nothing, unmarked troops get nothing special and there is no generic daemon weapon option, if you don't like the Black Mace you're gak outta luck. So how exactly does this represent a Legion that is known for having cult troops in massive numbers, as well as probably hundreds of Lords and their warbands?

I don't have a problem with a BL supplement, I'm just not sure they're in the most dire need. Forgive me if I'm wrong though, but I have always been under the impression that BL was the 'default/vanilla' form of CSM, the equivalent of Ultramarines - And they just use a pick'n'mix of Marks

Here's the thing:

Chaos is a way to varied force to be represented by one codex. And it doesn't help that Chaos Space Marines have some of the most developed and diverse fluff around.

GW tried to make the Legions work with the 3.5 codex and it was a horrible broken mess. So they decided that codex CSM would be a codex for Chaos Space Marines. Not a codex Slanesh or Nurgle. Not codex Alpha Legion or Thousand Sons.

You can create a good Black Legion, Word Bearer or Red Korsair force. You can create a Force for one of the many smaller warbands that Split from the Legions and formed from Marines that turned after the heresy. It's a codex for the majority of CSM forces, which are forces of renegades supported by a few veterans from the original Legions. Which is why the codex added new options for such forces.

It is a good codex for this purpose. It's not a perfect codex and I have some issues with it (I agree that the Dark Mechanicus should have developed some Land Raider and Predator variants of their own. Also MoT is a horrible choice for most units and the Lore of Tzeentch isn't very good), but it does the job well enough.

While the Helldrake, Plague Marines and Obliberator are supperior choices, they are only your only choices if you equal competitive with WAAC.

The real problem is that various old Index Astartes articles, the 3.5 Codex and loads and loads of Fluff releases have opened Pandoras box on the diversity of Chaos and GW is just starting again to do codex supplements. So there's a lot of Chaos players that are only Chaos players in the sense that a Blood Angels player is an Imperium player. A lot of players have or want to play Mono god and Legion forces that the codex can't represent, but that used to have rules.

And then, to add to the problem, there's a lot of old fluff representing rules that where left behind, as well as memetic mutation and headcanon that people like to hold up as definite dogma on how certain forces should be played.

It used to be that Red Corsairs still used loyalist equipment and Iron Warriors crewed basilisks. These things haven't been mentioned in a long time.

And yes, raptors fit the combat doctrine of the Night Lords, but I don't think it was ever stated that Night Lords are all raptor, all the time.


I say, play Codex CSM as what it is meant to represent and be patient. If rumors hold true, the codex will make bigger changes as more are released. With some luck, we will eventually see those Legion supplements that do the job.

Until then, people must learn that their Legion forces are in the same boat as pure Kroot, Iron Hands, Catachans etc. They are forces that diverge from the norm and currently without rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SirDigby wrote:

I don't have a problem with a BL supplement, I'm just not sure they're in the most dire need. Forgive me if I'm wrong though, but I have always been under the impression that BL was the 'default/vanilla' form of CSM, the equivalent of Ultramarines - And they just use a pick'n'mix of Marks

It has been fluff in Rogue Trader and 2nd edition that the Sons of Horus lost a huge amount of their original numbers, because the members burned themself out by deamonic possession. It has also been part of that fluff, that the remainder of the Sons of Horus that formed the core of the new Black Legion perfected the ritual of possession, so the host doesn't die.

Mastery of posession, absorbing members of other Legions and renegade warbands, as well as a focus on Black Crusades should make a good basis for a supplement that makes just a tad more changes than Iyanden and Farsight. If the rumor that the supplements make progressively more changes are true, picking Black Legion makes a lot of sense. I'd expect Red Kaorsairs and Word Bearers to see the next Chaos supplement.

 Ailaros wrote:
No, I don't mean bad. You can win with fluffy lists.

But drakes are hard counters to ton of stuff. Foot lists , bikers etc Not taking drakes in chaos is like playing tau without Marker Lights.

And yes, raptors fit the combat doctrine of the Night Lords, but I don't think it was ever stated that Night Lords are all raptor, all the time.

They aren't, they are actually night fighting specialists with a number of ground and air based forces that prefer the alpha strike on an enemy force, which is why they have a high number of raptors because of the quicker strike helps them terrorize enemy forces into disarray, though they don't seem to care much for bikes as much. I suppose they prefer the aerial maneuvering one could get over the issues on the ground.

They have a number of standard CSM soldiers on ground as well, they are usually more prepared for the main strike once the air forces work their attack.

 SirDigby wrote:
A lot of people seem to be getting annoyed at me, and I feel there's a misunderstanding.

I'm not saying that it's a 'weak' or 'bad' book. I can see how some very viable and functional lists can be made with it, and I'm sure some people are enjoying it.

My issue is that the book still feels like a Black Legion 'dex, now with the addition of robot dinosaurs (which I neither understand or like, but again, that's a personal choice).

What I loved about 3.5 was that there were special rules and items for EIGHT different legions. In 4th and 6th, the only thing picking a certain legion changes is your paint scheme. What I hoped for is just a couple additional pages somewhere that have some limitations and benefits for each legion. Additional Heavy Weapons for Iron Warriors, Raptors as Troops for Night Lords, sonic weapons on vehicles for Emperor's Children, Inferno Bolts for Thousand Sons Terminators, etc. These are the sorts of things that CSM players were giddy over the idea of getting, and instead we got mechanical flying dragons and gorilla/dog robots with mechanical tentacles.

So basically unless it is explicitly spelled out for you, what color to paint your army, you cannot accept essentially the same thing (plus and minus a few units) with less restriction?

 Gunzhard wrote:

 SirDigby wrote:
A lot of people seem to be getting annoyed at me, and I feel there's a misunderstanding.

I'm not saying that it's a 'weak' or 'bad' book. I can see how some very viable and functional lists can be made with it, and I'm sure some people are enjoying it.

My issue is that the book still feels like a Black Legion 'dex, now with the addition of robot dinosaurs (which I neither understand or like, but again, that's a personal choice).

What I loved about 3.5 was that there were special rules and items for EIGHT different legions. In 4th and 6th, the only thing picking a certain legion changes is your paint scheme. What I hoped for is just a couple additional pages somewhere that have some limitations and benefits for each legion. Additional Heavy Weapons for Iron Warriors, Raptors as Troops for Night Lords, sonic weapons on vehicles for Emperor's Children, Inferno Bolts for Thousand Sons Terminators, etc. These are the sorts of things that CSM players were giddy over the idea of getting, and instead we got mechanical flying dragons and gorilla/dog robots with mechanical tentacles.

So basically unless it is explicitly spelled out for you, what color to paint your army, you cannot accept essentially the same thing (plus and minus a few units) with less restriction?

How does this not also apply to Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 SirDigby wrote:
A lot of people seem to be getting annoyed at me, and I feel there's a misunderstanding.

I'm not saying that it's a 'weak' or 'bad' book. I can see how some very viable and functional lists can be made with it, and I'm sure some people are enjoying it.

My issue is that the book still feels like a Black Legion 'dex, now with the addition of robot dinosaurs (which I neither understand or like, but again, that's a personal choice).

What I loved about 3.5 was that there were special rules and items for EIGHT different legions. In 4th and 6th, the only thing picking a certain legion changes is your paint scheme. What I hoped for is just a couple additional pages somewhere that have some limitations and benefits for each legion. Additional Heavy Weapons for Iron Warriors, Raptors as Troops for Night Lords, sonic weapons on vehicles for Emperor's Children, Inferno Bolts for Thousand Sons Terminators, etc. These are the sorts of things that CSM players were giddy over the idea of getting, and instead we got mechanical flying dragons and gorilla/dog robots with mechanical tentacles.

So basically unless it is explicitly spelled out for you, what color to paint your army, you cannot accept essentially the same thing (plus and minus a few units) with less restriction?

How does this not also apply to Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars?

It doesn't really...

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 SirDigby wrote:
A lot of people seem to be getting annoyed at me, and I feel there's a misunderstanding.

I'm not saying that it's a 'weak' or 'bad' book. I can see how some very viable and functional lists can be made with it, and I'm sure some people are enjoying it.

My issue is that the book still feels like a Black Legion 'dex, now with the addition of robot dinosaurs (which I neither understand or like, but again, that's a personal choice).

What I loved about 3.5 was that there were special rules and items for EIGHT different legions. In 4th and 6th, the only thing picking a certain legion changes is your paint scheme. What I hoped for is just a couple additional pages somewhere that have some limitations and benefits for each legion. Additional Heavy Weapons for Iron Warriors, Raptors as Troops for Night Lords, sonic weapons on vehicles for Emperor's Children, Inferno Bolts for Thousand Sons Terminators, etc. These are the sorts of things that CSM players were giddy over the idea of getting, and instead we got mechanical flying dragons and gorilla/dog robots with mechanical tentacles.

So basically unless it is explicitly spelled out for you, what color to paint your army, you cannot accept essentially the same thing (plus and minus a few units) with less restriction?

How does this not also apply to Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars?

It doesn't really...

Wait... So you'd be OK if Blood Angels or Dark Angels were just a single special unit and special character in the Space Marine codex, and you didn't have any other options beyond that (a la the current situation of the chaos legions)? Lose all those special rules, all the rest of your special characters, all the unique units (goodbye death company, they were really just assault marines... goodbye deathwing knights, they were really just terminators... goodbye long fangs, they were really just devastators)? If Blood Angels became a Space Marine list with the special rule of "if you take a Blood Angels character, assault squads become troops" I can imagine a HUGE outcry from existing Blood Angels players, specifically because they HAD all the cool special rules and lost them. Nevermind that to make the analogy complete, in that situation the Blood Angels also wouldn't be able to use 50% of the rest of the Marine codex, just as legion specific players can't use huge swathes of the chaos codex that don't correspond to their legion.

 somerandomidiot wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 SirDigby wrote:
A lot of people seem to be getting annoyed at me, and I feel there's a misunderstanding.

I'm not saying that it's a 'weak' or 'bad' book. I can see how some very viable and functional lists can be made with it, and I'm sure some people are enjoying it.

My issue is that the book still feels like a Black Legion 'dex, now with the addition of robot dinosaurs (which I neither understand or like, but again, that's a personal choice).

What I loved about 3.5 was that there were special rules and items for EIGHT different legions. In 4th and 6th, the only thing picking a certain legion changes is your paint scheme. What I hoped for is just a couple additional pages somewhere that have some limitations and benefits for each legion. Additional Heavy Weapons for Iron Warriors, Raptors as Troops for Night Lords, sonic weapons on vehicles for Emperor's Children, Inferno Bolts for Thousand Sons Terminators, etc. These are the sorts of things that CSM players were giddy over the idea of getting, and instead we got mechanical flying dragons and gorilla/dog robots with mechanical tentacles.

So basically unless it is explicitly spelled out for you, what color to paint your army, you cannot accept essentially the same thing (plus and minus a few units) with less restriction?

How does this not also apply to Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars?

It doesn't really...

Wait... So you'd be OK if Blood Angels or Dark Angels were just a single special unit and special character in the Space Marine codex, and you didn't have any other options beyond that (a la the current situation of the chaos legions)? Lose all those special rules, all the rest of your special characters, all the unique units (goodbye death company, they were really just assault marines... goodbye deathwing knights, they were really just terminators... goodbye long fangs, they were really just devastators)? If Blood Angels became a Space Marine list with the special rule of "if you take a Blood Angels character, assault squads become troops" I can imagine a HUGE outcry from existing Blood Angels players, specifically because they HAD all the cool special rules and lost them. Nevermind that to make the analogy complete, in that situation the Blood Angels also wouldn't be able to use 50% of the rest of the Marine codex, just as legion specific players can't use huge swathes of the chaos codex that don't correspond to their legion.

Well I've played red space marines since 1st edition and Blood Angels since 2nd... if the SM codex had as much variety and customization potential as the current CSM codex I'd be 'OK'. That said, moving to that arrangement, as you've described it, would leave a LOT of units that I currently own unusable within that model - this IS NOT the case for CSM players with only a few exceptions; you can essentially still field the same army you did in CSM3.5.

The lack of more cult units displeased me.

I want T5 FNP plague terminators and Berzerker bikers.

Oh and sonic dreadnoughts and rubric havocs.

 Gunzhard wrote:


Well I've played red space marines since 1st edition and Blood Angels since 2nd... if the SM codex had as much variety and customization potential as the current CSM codex I'd be 'OK'. That said, moving to that arrangement, as you've described it, would leave a LOT of units that I currently own unusable within that model - this IS NOT the case for CSM players with only a few exceptions; you can essentially still field the same army you did in CSM3.5.

I'm curious, what units would it leave unplayable?

Gunzhard wrote:

Well I've played red space marines since 1st edition and Blood Angels since 2nd...

When the only difference was Death Company (black marines) and some SC's...

if the SM codex had as much variety and customization potential as the current CSM codex I'd be 'OK'.

most of the "customization" is largely trying to hamfist 4 very different Legions and then renegade marked-but-not-cult legions on top of that and does it very poorly.

That said, moving to that arrangement, as you've described it, would leave a LOT of units that I currently own unusable within that model

Most of which are simple FoC/weapon swaps.

- this IS NOT the case for CSM players with only a few exceptions; you can essentially still field the same army you did in CSM3.5.

For some armies yes. For some no.

 somerandomidiot wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:


Well I've played red space marines since 1st edition and Blood Angels since 2nd... if the SM codex had as much variety and customization potential as the current CSM codex I'd be 'OK'. That said, moving to that arrangement, as you've described it, would leave a LOT of units that I currently own unusable within that model - this IS NOT the case for CSM players with only a few exceptions; you can essentially still field the same army you did in CSM3.5.

I'm curious, what units would it leave unplayable?

Assuming, as per the previous poster, I get to keep one 'character' to unlock stuff (assault marine as troops?), it'd probably be Dante; But otherwise:

Furiouso Dreadnought, Librarian Dreadnought, Death Company Dreadnought, Death Company, Baal Predator, Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinor, Tycho, StormRAVEN, Sanguinary Priests, Astorath, Corbulo, Jumpie Honour guards, and Gabriel Seth... did I leave anybody out?

Sorry but that is just NOT the case for CSM... wanting a T5 FnP plague terminator... and getting just a T5 MoN terminator does not compare.

No seriously Bezerker bikers with pickelhaubes.

It'd be so Khornate that the feeble enemies of Khorne would tremble!

They'd still suck a juggernaut's steel balls because by decree of GW Khorne can't have nice things, but it'd be metal!

Oh and Tzeentch should really stop sucking at magic

 somerandomidiot wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:


Well I've played red space marines since 1st edition and Blood Angels since 2nd... if the SM codex had as much variety and customization potential as the current CSM codex I'd be 'OK'. That said, moving to that arrangement, as you've described it, would leave a LOT of units that I currently own unusable within that model - this IS NOT the case for CSM players with only a few exceptions; you can essentially still field the same army you did in CSM3.5.

I'm curious, what units would it leave unplayable?

As an Emporers Children player whose played 3.5...

Sonic Dreads, Sonic Preds, Blastmaster havocs, sonic gun/blastmaster/doom siren on standard CSM/Chosen/Bikers.

Not counting all the special slaanesh wargear/mutations, not to mention the Daemonic Upgrades for the chaos lord/sorcerer that isn't a random roller...

You know what would be nice?

Rubric dakkapreds.

Taste AP3-2 hellfire and the mediocrity of soul blaze for twice the cost!

I would certainly prefer to give my Deathguard Terminators FNP and other Nurgly goodness, but since I don't have those options I am happy to give them the Mark of Nurgle and be done with it. Its as close as I can get to Plague Terminators.

I think the codex and the writers should be criticized for not including more cult options, but I wont lose any sleep over it.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

As an Emporers Children player whose played 3.5...

Sonic Dreads, Sonic Preds, Blastmaster havocs, sonic gun/blastmaster/doom siren on standard CSM/Chosen/Bikers.

Not counting all the special slaanesh wargear/mutations, not to mention the Daemonic Upgrades for the chaos lord/sorcerer that isn't a random roller...

I'd give you the EC disappointments but you are still essentially talking about the loss of one-weapon type over several units; and you've gained others in the new codex.

As for the other stuff those are wholesale game changes that affect all codex. There is no more picking veteran abilities etc and everyone has random psychic powers.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 somerandomidiot wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:


Well I've played red space marines since 1st edition and Blood Angels since 2nd... if the SM codex had as much variety and customization potential as the current CSM codex I'd be 'OK'. That said, moving to that arrangement, as you've described it, would leave a LOT of units that I currently own unusable within that model - this IS NOT the case for CSM players with only a few exceptions; you can essentially still field the same army you did in CSM3.5.

I'm curious, what units would it leave unplayable?

Assuming, as per the previous poster, I get to keep one 'character' to unlock stuff, it'd probably be Dante; But otherwise:

Furiouso Dreadnought, Librarian Dreadnought, Death Company Dreadnought, Death Company, Baal Predator, Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinor, Tycho, StormRAVEN, Sanguinary Priests, Astorath, Corbulo, Jumpie Honour guards, and Gabriel Seth... did I leave anybody out?

Furioso Dreadnoughts could be used as Ironclads, Librarian Dreadnoughts could be used as Venerable Dreadnoughts, Death Company would just be a differently painted Assault Squad, Sanguinary Guard could be used as Vanguard Veterans, Space Marines can already take Storm Ravens, Sanguinary Priests are just Apothecaries, and Jump Pack Honor Guards again are just Vanguard Veterans. The only non-special character models on your list that wouldn't have a direct corollary in the Marine book are Baal Predators, and that's almost the exact same thing that happened to Sonic Predators for Emperor's Children. I don't see how it's any different to take, for example, my Thousand Sons Havocs and turn them into generic Havocs with Mark of Tzeentch (losing out on army specific rules) then to take your Death Company and turn them into generic Assault Marines (again, losing out on army specific rules). Sure, some of your wargear doesn't match the current list availability (just like Emperor's Children Havocs can't use their noise weapons, or Iron Warriors simply couldn't use their Basilisk until 6th edition allies) but you could make it work.

It takes a lot of shoehorning, but that's the general theme of how Chaos players felt with the 4th edition codex. If those changes happened to you, I'm sure you'd be absolutely miserable with your new, sans-options army, and you'd have an right to be. But to get a long-awaited 6th edition codex and have NOTHING change...

Feel the wrath of my TEQ priced Rubric Marines! Marvel at how they die like bitches to lasguns in rapid fire range! Be amazed at their mandatory overpriced sorcerer with bad powers! Gasp before their guns which are no better than bolters against anything that's not a marine! Be in awe as my soulblaze rages for a turn and makes you lose nothing of value!

 SirDigby wrote:
I've tired numerous times to pick the book back up and look through it with fresh eyes, but as silly as it sounds, I just end up getting really angry!

So, I ask of ye, what ideas and thoughts does the DakkaDakka community have of playing CSM - without playing CSM..

What's wrong with the CSM book? What exactly are you looking to build?

 labmouse42 wrote:

 SirDigby wrote:
I've tired numerous times to pick the book back up and look through it with fresh eyes, but as silly as it sounds, I just end up getting really angry!

So, I ask of ye, what ideas and thoughts does the DakkaDakka community have of playing CSM - without playing CSM..

What's wrong with the CSM book? What exactly are you looking to build?

I want cult units, and lots of them.

 somerandomidiot wrote:

Furioso Dreadnoughts could be used as Ironclads, Librarian Dreadnoughts could be used as Venerable Dreadnoughts, Death Company would just be a differently painted Assault Squad, Sanguinary Guard could be used as Vanguard Veterans, Space Marines can already take Storm Ravens, Sanguinary Priests are just Apothecaries, and Jump Pack Honor Guards again are just Vanguard Veterans. The only non-special character models on your list that wouldn't have a direct corollary in the Marine book are Baal Predators, and that's almost the exact same thing that happened to Sonic Predators for Emperor's Children. I don't see how it's any different to take, for example, my Thousand Sons Havocs and turn them into generic Havocs with Mark of Tzeentch (losing out on army specific rules) then to take your Death Company and turn them into generic Assault Marines (again, losing out on army specific rules). Sure, some of your wargear doesn't match the current list availability (just like Emperor's Children Havocs can't use their noise weapons, or Iron Warriors simply couldn't use their Basilisk until 6th edition allies) but you could make it work.

It takes a lot of shoehorning, but that's the general theme of how Chaos players felt with the 4th edition codex. If those changes happened to you, I'm sure you'd be absolutely miserable with your new, sans-options army, and you'd have an right to be. But to get a long-awaited 6th edition codex and have NOTHING change...

Well I think we both know that is not even a remotely reasonable comparison. The loss of a few weapon-types is hardly the same as wholesale unit exchanges. Most codex have had much bigger changes since 3rd edition... Blood Angels all had FC and Rage and could assault out of rhinos in the 3rd ed codex.

Don't forget that the only thing making 'regular chaos space marines' into 'noise marines' in the 3.5Dex was adding the Mark of Slaanesh and following the restrictions. Like every other codex in the game certain things have changed, as is the case with the Mark of Slaanesh to some degree.

 Gunzhard wrote:

Don't forget that the only thing making 'regular chaos space marines' into 'noise marines' in the 3.5Dex was adding the Mark of Slaanesh and following the restrictions. Like every other codex in the game certain things have changed, as is the case with the Mark of Slaanesh to some degree.

Yeah, certain things have changed but we're the only ones still paying for some dumb mistakes that were made over a decade ago. No other codex has to deal with that bullcrap. Yes 3.5 had some OP stuff, but a lot of it was really cool. In any case I'd rather play that codex now then have to deal with a copy-pasted bland codex written by one of the biggest tools currently employed by GeeDubs.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 somerandomidiot wrote:

Furioso Dreadnoughts could be used as Ironclads, Librarian Dreadnoughts could be used as Venerable Dreadnoughts, Death Company would just be a differently painted Assault Squad, Sanguinary Guard could be used as Vanguard Veterans, Space Marines can already take Storm Ravens, Sanguinary Priests are just Apothecaries, and Jump Pack Honor Guards again are just Vanguard Veterans. The only non-special character models on your list that wouldn't have a direct corollary in the Marine book are Baal Predators, and that's almost the exact same thing that happened to Sonic Predators for Emperor's Children. I don't see how it's any different to take, for example, my Thousand Sons Havocs and turn them into generic Havocs with Mark of Tzeentch (losing out on army specific rules) then to take your Death Company and turn them into generic Assault Marines (again, losing out on army specific rules). Sure, some of your wargear doesn't match the current list availability (just like Emperor's Children Havocs can't use their noise weapons, or Iron Warriors simply couldn't use their Basilisk until 6th edition allies) but you could make it work.

It takes a lot of shoehorning, but that's the general theme of how Chaos players felt with the 4th edition codex. If those changes happened to you, I'm sure you'd be absolutely miserable with your new, sans-options army, and you'd have an right to be. But to get a long-awaited 6th edition codex and have NOTHING change...

Well I think we both know that is not even a remotely reasonable comparison. The loss of a few weapon-types is hardly the same as wholesale unit exchanges. Most codex have had much bigger changes since 3rd edition... Blood Angels all had FC and Rage and could assault out of rhinos in the 3rd ed codex.

Don't forget that the only thing making 'regular chaos space marines' into 'noise marines' in the 3.5Dex was adding the Mark of Slaanesh and following the restrictions. Like every other codex in the game certain things have changed, as is the case with the Mark of Slaanesh to some degree.

I think I've veered away from my original point, which was that I don't feel like I have enough options in my codex to make varied lists that represent the Thousand Sons. This is the result of trying to include multiple distinct armies in one book. It's the exact opposite of what happened with the Blood Angels, who got a book of their own and now have numerous units making them distinct from normal space marines. Even ignoring little things like "Thousand Sons Havocs would be fearless and have a 4+ invul" and "Thousand Sons Terminators should have AP3 combi-bolters", I'm still forced to use a subset of the units in the Chaos codex if I want to play a Thousand Sons force. Don't even mention that a lot of the remaining units are absolutely terrible (seriously, 6+ invul for Mark of Tzeentch? the Tzeentch psychic power table?). I feel like the entire army I play is only one build of the Chaos codex, just like DOA is one build of the Blood Angel codex. The difference is, a DOA list can branch out and include the rest of the Blood Angels army, but if I want to play Thousand Sons, there's no way I can use anything with the Marks of Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Khorne.