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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User






Howdy y'all.

I've been playing CSM for just over ten years, and in my humble opinion the army hit its peak with the 3.5 Codex. It was relatively balanced, and yet provided special rules and equipment for EIGHT different legions. Iron Warriors had access to more heavy support and different vehicles, Alpha Legion had different infantry options in the form of Cultists, and let's not get into what Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, etc, got!

4th, as we all know, was not very popular. Like a foul leech it sucked all of that delicious, juicy character and variation out of the army, not to mention taking away our daemon friends.

I was looking forward to 6th for a very long time, and through nobodies fault but my own, I got suckered into the rumours. I was hoping for a return to the glory days, and more. I'd heard about the ability to give FNP icons to units, and dreamt of -finally- having a 'proper' Death Guard army, where the Terminators and Bikers aren't less blessed by Papa Nurgle than the regular Plague Marines. I expected marks for vehicles. I expected.... well, I expected a lot of things, and I could go on all day. Needless to say, on release day the book was tossed aside and I was massively disappointed. I know a lot of people like the new 'dex, but Codex: Black LegionV2/Robot Dinosaurs just isn't for me.

I've tired numerous times to pick the book back up and look through it with fresh eyes, but as silly as it sounds, I just end up getting really angry!

So, I ask of ye, what ideas and thoughts does the DakkaDakka community have of playing CSM - without playing CSM.

By this I mean, I've heard the Blood Angels book makes a very good option for playing Night Lords, due to both armies using masses of jump infantry.
I've considered playing the Dark Angels book as a band of renegades - The Deathwing Knights getting +1 Toughness for hugging is just as Nurgly as the current CSM book offers!
Could perhaps do a World Eaters army in the form of BA Death Company, perhaps?

Any ideas you can think of, just chuck them this way! Thank you for reading.
   
Made in es
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon






 SirDigby wrote:
I was looking forward to 6th for a very long time, and through nobodies fault but my own, I got suckered into the rumours. I was hoping for a return to the glory days, and more. I'd heard about the ability to give FNP icons to units, and dreamt of -finally- having a 'proper' Death Guard army, where the Terminators and Bikers aren't less blessed by Papa Nurgle than the regular Plague Marines. I expected marks for vehicles. I expected.... well, I expected a lot of things, and I could go on all day.


You can buy marks for bikers/terminators, k'now... Actually Nurgle bikers are almost universally regarded as one of the best choices in the 'dex.

Playing DA as Nurgle would be a waste IMO. Sacrificing Plague Marines, zombies, FNP icons and marks for the honestly not-so-shiny Deathwing Knights? I reckon some legions/gods have been badly hit by the new dex. Khorne took a big hit with the 6th ed. assault rules and the inability to charge from Rhinos. Tzeentch is simply abysmal. There's no way to assemble a fluffy Alpha Legion army these days (here's me hoping for them getting a codex suplement in the future). In those few cases, feel free to run a proxy army (Tzeentch can be easily represented by Grey Knights, Blood Angels as Khorne won't be too much of a stretch either) but if you're running Nurgle or Slaanesh just use the current rules. It won't get any better than this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, welcome to Dakka!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/25 14:33:14




War does not determine who is right - only who is left. 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User






Thank you for the welcome!

The problem I have with running a Death Guard army under the current CSM rules, is that our Bikes, Terminators, etc, can't take FNP. It's a small point, but it just really bugs me that Terminators (Described as 'veterans' in their entry) are less favoured by Nurgle than the standard Plague Marine troop choices. I realise you can still make a very viable Death Guard list, but it makes me nerdrage when I see the FNP Icon as Slaanesh-only.

Tzeentch as Grey Knights is an awesome idea, I didn't think of that!
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 SirDigby wrote:
Howdy y'all.

I've been playing CSM for just over ten years, and in my humble opinion the army hit its peak with the 3.5 Codex. It was relatively balanced, and yet provided special rules and equipment for EIGHT different legions. Iron Warriors had access to more heavy support and different vehicles, Alpha Legion had different infantry options in the form of Cultists, and let's not get into what Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, etc, got!

4th, as we all know, was not very popular. Like a foul leech it sucked all of that delicious, juicy character and variation out of the army, not to mention taking away our daemon friends.

I was looking forward to 6th for a very long time, and through nobodies fault but my own, I got suckered into the rumours. I was hoping for a return to the glory days, and more. I'd heard about the ability to give FNP icons to units, and dreamt of -finally- having a 'proper' Death Guard army, where the Terminators and Bikers aren't less blessed by Papa Nurgle than the regular Plague Marines. I expected marks for vehicles. I expected.... well, I expected a lot of things, and I could go on all day. Needless to say, on release day the book was tossed aside and I was massively disappointed. I know a lot of people like the new 'dex, but Codex: Black LegionV2/Robot Dinosaurs just isn't for me.

I've tired numerous times to pick the book back up and look through it with fresh eyes, but as silly as it sounds, I just end up getting really angry!

So, I ask of ye, what ideas and thoughts does the DakkaDakka community have of playing CSM - without playing CSM.

By this I mean, I've heard the Blood Angels book makes a very good option for playing Night Lords, due to both armies using masses of jump infantry.
I've considered playing the Dark Angels book as a band of renegades - The Deathwing Knights getting +1 Toughness for hugging is just as Nurgly as the current CSM book offers!
Could perhaps do a World Eaters army in the form of BA Death Company, perhaps?

Any ideas you can think of, just chuck them this way! Thank you for reading.

I have been playing the army since 3rd Ed. It was a missed opportunity and a rushed effort.
There are so many just plain $hit units, it's terrible. There are also really bad internal balance problems.

It's shameful really, and just slightly better than 4th. Instead of dual lash + 9 oblits we have 2-3 Heldrakes and plague marines.

You can't make a competitive list with Khorne Berzerkers, Possessed, Helbrutes, Defilers, Mutilators, or Warp Talons. Terminators, Forge Fiend, Raptors
are just meh. These units are like 75% of the book. So you tell me, is it a good book? No it is not - it is a failure.
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





If you have to substitute core chaos units like zerkers and 1ksons for other rules, then there's something very wrong.
"Our codex sucks so much, you have to use other codexes instead!" That's not a good selling point.



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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 MWHistorian wrote:
If you have to substitute core chaos units like zerkers and 1ksons for other rules, then there's something very wrong.
"Our codex sucks so much, you have to use other codexes instead!" That's not a good selling point.

No it definitely is not a good selling point. The other scary thing is how relatively new it is. It hasn't been out very long, and it is already showing major problems.

It is virtually impossible to make an army out of the CSM book by itself that will win a major tournament. In fact, I would say it can't be done in the current meta. The options
are just not there, and 2-3 Heldrakes isn't going to do it.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




Seattle, WA

I have been playing the army since 3rd Ed. It was a missed opportunity and a rushed effort.
There are so many just plain $hit units, it's terrible. There are also really bad internal balance problems.

It's shameful really, and just slightly better than 4th. Instead of dual lash + 9 oblits we have 2-3 Heldrakes and plague marines.

You can't make a competitive list with Khorne Berzerkers, Possessed, Helbrutes, Defilers, Mutilators, or Warp Talons. Terminators, Forge Fiend, Raptors
are just meh. These units are like 75% of the book. So you tell me, is it a good book? No it is not - it is a failure.


Yes, Khorne is totally unplayable: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/541751.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/539242.page

The CSM book is actually pretty well balanced internally. Heldrakes are great, but I've been finding that if I take things that can start on the board immediately I do just as well.

The only issue with the book is that the troop section is not great. But that is not really the fault of the codex. Power armored armies have suffered with the emergence of heldrakes, massed high strength fire power and eldar rending. Marine fire output is simply too low for the amount of points you invest in them. Troops have become a tax that you pay to bring stuff that actually kills enemies. Marines have to pay a higher tax rate.

   
Made in us
Drew_Riggio




 SirDigby wrote:
Thank you for the welcome!

The problem I have with running a Death Guard army under the current CSM rules, is that our Bikes, Terminators, etc, can't take FNP. It's a small point, but it just really bugs me that Terminators (Described as 'veterans' in their entry) are less favoured by Nurgle than the standard Plague Marine troop choices. I realise you can still make a very viable Death Guard list, but it makes me nerdrage when I see the FNP Icon as Slaanesh-only.

Tzeentch as Grey Knights is an awesome idea, I didn't think of that!


Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought in the 3.5 dex nurgle units did not get FNP either? FNP is nice but I dont think its a hallmark of nurgle. Its all about the extra toughness.

Overall I like the new dex, except for the dino bots.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/25 16:07:31


 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Beijing, China

bogalubov wrote:

The CSM book is actually pretty well balanced internally. Heldrakes are great, but I've been finding that if I take things that can start on the board immediately I do just as well.
The only issue with the book is that the troop section is not great. But that is not really the fault of the codex. Power armored armies have suffered with the emergence of heldrakes, massed high strength fire power and eldar rending. Marine fire output is simply too low for the amount of points you invest in them. Troops have become a tax that you pay to bring stuff that actually kills enemies. Marines have to pay a higher tax rate.

You mean like how Bikes are 2 points more than Raptors, move faster, get +1 T, 5+ cover, HoW(all the time), twinlinked botlers and relentless while at the same time only needing 3 models to get 2 special weapons?

Or do you mean how warp talons are 4 points per model more than possessed and get 12" jump move, DS, blind strike, Shred(all the time), AP3(all the time), and HoW(sometimes).

Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





bogalubov wrote:
I have been playing the army since 3rd Ed. It was a missed opportunity and a rushed effort.
There are so many just plain $hit units, it's terrible. There are also really bad internal balance problems.

It's shameful really, and just slightly better than 4th. Instead of dual lash + 9 oblits we have 2-3 Heldrakes and plague marines.

You can't make a competitive list with Khorne Berzerkers, Possessed, Helbrutes, Defilers, Mutilators, or Warp Talons. Terminators, Forge Fiend, Raptors
are just meh. These units are like 75% of the book. So you tell me, is it a good book? No it is not - it is a failure.


Yes, Khorne is totally unplayable: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/541751.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/539242.page

The CSM book is actually pretty well balanced internally. Heldrakes are great, but I've been finding that if I take things that can start on the board immediately I do just as well.

The only issue with the book is that the troop section is not great. But that is not really the fault of the codex. Power armored armies have suffered with the emergence of heldrakes, massed high strength fire power and eldar rending. Marine fire output is simply too low for the amount of points you invest in them. Troops have become a tax that you pay to bring stuff that actually kills enemies. Marines have to pay a higher tax rate.



That second GK list was so horribly unoptimized that I'm surprised you even counted it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/25 16:23:10


 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought





Boston, MA

If you though the 3rd edition CSM dex was balanced than you must have played Iron Warriors... and I'll bet none of your friends agreed with you heh.

That codex did have a TON of character and cool fluff integration but it was too varied to be realistically balanced. The newest codex is not without flaws (like every codex ever) but it is fairly balanced and working it's way back to having more character... with the 'codex supplements' I expect things to get a lot more interesting for Chaos.

Please check out my photo blog: http://atticwars40k.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




Seattle, WA

 Exergy wrote:
bogalubov wrote:

The CSM book is actually pretty well balanced internally. Heldrakes are great, but I've been finding that if I take things that can start on the board immediately I do just as well.
The only issue with the book is that the troop section is not great. But that is not really the fault of the codex. Power armored armies have suffered with the emergence of heldrakes, massed high strength fire power and eldar rending. Marine fire output is simply too low for the amount of points you invest in them. Troops have become a tax that you pay to bring stuff that actually kills enemies. Marines have to pay a higher tax rate.

You mean like how Bikes are 2 points more than Raptors, move faster, get +1 T, 5+ cover, HoW(all the time), twinlinked botlers and relentless while at the same time only needing 3 models to get 2 special weapons?

Or do you mean how warp talons are 4 points per model more than possessed and get 12" jump move, DS, blind strike, Shred(all the time), AP3(all the time), and HoW(sometimes).


Raptors are 3 points less. Oddly enough that's the mark of Nurgle that will make the model T5. They also gain the ability to deep strike.

Plus, if the bikes cost more we'd all be complaining about how over costed they are. 3.5 dex had the difference between the two units be 5 points.
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

GorillaWarfare wrote:
 SirDigby wrote:
Thank you for the welcome!

The problem I have with running a Death Guard army under the current CSM rules, is that our Bikes, Terminators, etc, can't take FNP. It's a small point, but it just really bugs me that Terminators (Described as 'veterans' in their entry) are less favoured by Nurgle than the standard Plague Marine troop choices. I realise you can still make a very viable Death Guard list, but it makes me nerdrage when I see the FNP Icon as Slaanesh-only.

Tzeentch as Grey Knights is an awesome idea, I didn't think of that!


Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought in the 3.5 dex nurgle units did not get FNP either? FNP is nice but I dont think its a hallmark of nurgle. Its all about the extra toughness.

The problem is we've got a book fundamentally trying to do two different things as a result of the previous books redefinition of certain things. There are original Cult Legions, and then there are "marked" units that are also dedicated to a god but aren't quite the same thing. Plague Marines were transformed by the Destroyer virus, Nurgle dedicated marines, while enjoying Nurgles blessing, aren't the same thing. A Thousand Son is a marine that has survived, either as a mutation free psyker or a suit of animate armor, the Rubric of Ahriman, while a Tzeentch dedicated marine has not. A World Eater's Berzerker has undergone the psycho-lobotomization surgery, a Khorne dedicate marine has not.

As such, It's not about the FNP per se, but the inconsistency. Essentially, the only true "cult legion" units available are the "unlockable" troops, while everything else is the "marked" non-Cult legion stuff. There is an option for true Death Guard Plague Marines, but not for Death Guard Plague Terminators, just Nurgle Dedicated Terminators, which are not the same thing.



bogalubov wrote:
The CSM book is actually pretty well balanced internally.
Hrm, not so much. FA is dominated by the Heldrake, followed by Bikers which are clearly superior to Raptors, while Warp Talons are just awful. HS is generally "oblits or go home" due to the vehicle changes for 6E, Most of the Elites really are just "locked troops" (of which two aren't really used) and of what's left largely only Terminators have a particularly good use, etc.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Beijing, China

bogalubov wrote:
 Exergy wrote:
bogalubov wrote:

The CSM book is actually pretty well balanced internally. Heldrakes are great, but I've been finding that if I take things that can start on the board immediately I do just as well.
The only issue with the book is that the troop section is not great. But that is not really the fault of the codex. Power armored armies have suffered with the emergence of heldrakes, massed high strength fire power and eldar rending. Marine fire output is simply too low for the amount of points you invest in them. Troops have become a tax that you pay to bring stuff that actually kills enemies. Marines have to pay a higher tax rate.

You mean like how Bikes are 2 points more than Raptors, move faster, get +1 T, 5+ cover, HoW(all the time), twinlinked botlers and relentless while at the same time only needing 3 models to get 2 special weapons?


Raptors are 3 points less. Oddly enough that's the mark of Nurgle that will make the model T5. They also gain the ability to deep strike.

Plus, if the bikes cost more we'd all be complaining about how over costed they are. 3.5 dex had the difference between the two units be 5 points.


But vets of the long war for bikes is 1 point, where as for raptors it is 2 points. Both units want to get into combat, and hatred makes them so much better in it. Why more for raptors?

Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




No, the new CSM book IS NOT balanced. To be blunt, it is a turd. It can't win big events by itself (I dare you to try).

Phil Kelly said he made it to be on par with regular space marines. But, when the new space marine book comes out, a ben franklin says it will eclipse it.

It is a failure of a book. It should be one of the strongest books. They are 10,000 year old super soliders empowered by the dark gods.

You can make a reasonable list with it, but it is nowhere what it should be.
   
Made in us
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot




West Chester, PA

While you'll have to wait, I feel supplements will remedy the codex. Just think of the possibilities with an Iron Warriors supplement! I figure that was GWs intention. They will make more money with supplements, but it will also allow them to add a LOT to each supplement on top of the dex.

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Made in us
Drew_Riggio




bogalubov wrote:

The CSM book is actually pretty well balanced internally. Heldrakes are great, but I've been finding that if I take things that can start on the board immediately I do just as well.




I agree with this. People will say Heldrakes and Obliterators dominate and ruin the balance, but I think that's just because those units are so easy to use effectively that everyone takes them.

If you look at it this way, pretty much every list can benefit from the addition of nurgle obliterators, but not every list can benefit from the addition of a Predator. Taking a Predator is not just a simple matter of adding it to your list, you also need to think of armor saturation. Using Predators, or perhaps Helbrutes, requires more planning. Its not that the units are bad, its just that people do not use them correctly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/25 17:10:55


 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

dlight wrote:

It is a failure of a book. It should be one of the strongest books. They are 10,000 year old super soliders empowered by the dark gods.


This line of reasoning broke 7th edition in Fantasy. The books should be as equal as possible, even a theoretical "Codex: Squirrels with Crustacean allies" should have a fair chance to beat "Codex: God".

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
While you'll have to wait, I feel supplements will remedy the codex. Just think of the possibilities with an Iron Warriors supplement! I figure that was GWs intention. They will make more money with supplements, but it will also allow them to add a LOT to each supplement on top of the dex.



How will supplements help the base balance of the book? Unless they suddenly start changing points costs in them, it's not gonna help a thing.
   
Made in us
Drew_Riggio




 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
While you'll have to wait, I feel supplements will remedy the codex. Just think of the possibilities with an Iron Warriors supplement! I figure that was GWs intention. They will make more money with supplements, but it will also allow them to add a LOT to each supplement on top of the dex.



How will supplements help the base balance of the book? Unless they suddenly start changing points costs in them, it's not gonna help a thing.


I think the hope is that the supplements will allow you to ignore most of the base book in favour of supplemental options that will be balanced with the rest of 6th edition and each other.
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


"Codex: Squirrels with Crustacean allies"


And I would play the ever loving hell out of that army.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

I don't get it. Some units lost, what, one special rule, and now the codex is unplayable? Certain things went from only one restrictive rules set could get it to anyone can get it, and it's no longer fluffy?

You can still make an alpha legion army where a bunch of stuff infiltrates (with huron), and has a ton of cultists. You can still make a khorne army where everything rushes forwards with extra attacks. You can still make a tzeentch army where you've got more sorcerers than your opponent has units.

You can still make whatever fluffy army you want. Just because a few silly special rules were pitched doesn't change that. You can also still make a CSM army filled with demons. It's called allies.

Really, you're not missing that much. Meanwhile, you've gained a ton, like more specialized versions of older units (warp talons for raptors, mutilators for warp talons, etc.), some fluffy upgrades (new psychic powers and artifacts, among others) and a giant pile of new vehicles.

Doing what you could do before + more stuff = more, not less of what you're looking for here.

If you want to play CSM with a different rules set, then go ahead, but no army is going to be anywhere close to replicating the things you're looking for from CSM. The examples you listed are losing everything just to gain one thing. The end result is going to be less what you're looking for.

Meanwhile, if you don't think you can run a CSM army in the current codex, but could only be done in 3.5, perhaps you should consider revising your opinions on what constitutes a CSM army more than once every decade.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/25 17:39:15


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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

 SirDigby wrote:
Howdy y'all.

I've been playing CSM for just over ten years, and in my humble opinion the army hit its peak with the 3.5 Codex. It was relatively balanced,


Relative to what?

Relative to everything else Games Workshop ever published in the last 30 years, at the very least, it holds the honour of being the most unbalanced piece of gak ever conceived.

   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't get it. Some units lost, what, one special rule, and now the codex is unplayable? Certain things went from only one restrictive rules set could get it to anyone can get it, and it's no longer fluffy?

You can still make an alpha legion army where a bunch of stuff infiltrates (with huron), and has a ton of cultists. You can still make a khorne army where everything rushes forwards with extra attacks. You can still make a tzeentch army where you've got more sorcerers than your opponent has units.

You can still make whatever fluffy army you want. Just because a few silly special rules were pitched doesn't change that. You can also still make a CSM army filled with demons. It's called allies.

Really, you're not missing that much. Meanwhile, you've gained a ton, like more specialized versions of older units (warp talons for raptors, mutilators for warp talons, etc.), some fluffy upgrades (new psychic powers and artifacts, among others) and a giant pile of new vehicles.

Doing what you could do before + more stuff = more, not less of what you're looking for here.

If you want to play CSM with a different rules set, then go ahead, but no army is going to be anywhere close to replicating the things you're looking for from CSM. The examples you listed are losing everything just to gain one thing. The end result is going to be less what you're looking for.

Meanwhile, if you don't think you can run a CSM army in the current codex, but could only be done in 3.5, perhaps you should consider revising your opinions on what constitutes a CSM army more than once every decade.





Well said!

I find myself becoming more and more embarresed to be a CSM player than ever before because of all the silly whining and b****ing about how we didn't go back in time a decade and get a broken as filth codex again.

Yes, the new book isn't perfect - there's always things that could have been slightly tweeked here and there and made a bit better. But this book overall is pretty damn good with only 1 really glaring WTF?! moment being the Helturkey.
Almost everything can be made to work, (yes, even Warptalons!), and while the new codex won't pilot itself to tournament domination the way some books can/have done, it's not as if the book is unplayably bad ala 7th edition O&G's or the current Fantasy Daemon book is.

Overall it's a good middle-of-the-road codex that needs some thought & planning to get the most out of it. Sure it looks below par when compared to the busted books of 5th edition like SW's or GK's or BA's. But compare it to the other 6th ed books thus far and it holds its own.

 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

Experiment 626 wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:
I don't get it. Some units lost, what, one special rule, and now the codex is unplayable? Certain things went from only one restrictive rules set could get it to anyone can get it, and it's no longer fluffy?

You can still make an alpha legion army where a bunch of stuff infiltrates (with huron), and has a ton of cultists. You can still make a khorne army where everything rushes forwards with extra attacks. You can still make a tzeentch army where you've got more sorcerers than your opponent has units.

You can still make whatever fluffy army you want. Just because a few silly special rules were pitched doesn't change that. You can also still make a CSM army filled with demons. It's called allies.

Really, you're not missing that much. Meanwhile, you've gained a ton, like more specialized versions of older units (warp talons for raptors, mutilators for warp talons, etc.), some fluffy upgrades (new psychic powers and artifacts, among others) and a giant pile of new vehicles.

Doing what you could do before + more stuff = more, not less of what you're looking for here.

If you want to play CSM with a different rules set, then go ahead, but no army is going to be anywhere close to replicating the things you're looking for from CSM. The examples you listed are losing everything just to gain one thing. The end result is going to be less what you're looking for.

Meanwhile, if you don't think you can run a CSM army in the current codex, but could only be done in 3.5, perhaps you should consider revising your opinions on what constitutes a CSM army more than once every decade.





Well said!

I find myself becoming more and more embarresed to be a CSM player than ever before because of all the silly whining and b****ing about how we didn't go back in time a decade and get a broken as filth codex again.
It's not that people want a super broken codex, it's that the current codex, even leaving aside competitiveness, does a poor job of portraying CSM's as I explained earlier. That fact that it's competitiveness is mediocre (aside from heldrake spam) just compounds the issue because even when you can make an army that adheres well to the fluff, very often it's basically incompetent on the table, but competitiveness isn't the core of it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/25 18:44:15


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 Zweischneid wrote:
 SirDigby wrote:
Howdy y'all.

I've been playing CSM for just over ten years, and in my humble opinion the army hit its peak with the 3.5 Codex. It was relatively balanced,


Relative to what?

Relative to everything else Games Workshop ever published in the last 30 years, at the very least, it holds the honour of being the most unbalanced piece of gak ever conceived.


Compared to BA they were balanced. Though I only played Emp children without the most OP chaos lord, so I wouldn't really know.
   
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The new dex isn't awful, just flawed. It has many issues. The core of which seems to be not competitiveness but a lack of proper character and the inabilty to make a real fluffy army. For those that play for fun and to whom the tournament scene is beyond total irrelevance this can be quite a burden. I've seen it and think it's a solid book, but that doesn't mean it's beyond reproach and could still be massively improved.

Also, Ailaros I'm going to assume you don't play Chaos because your argument is deeply flawed. However I shall not be bothering to correct you as I intend to practice my karoke instead.


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As a quick aside though, I think we can all agree the real issue is where is Codex: Squirrels. I would love that. Squirrels being one of the more amazing woodland creatures. The lack of any woodland codex is a severe oversight on GW part when you really stop and think isn't it?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/25 18:43:06


 
   
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Derry

I never knew the NL were renown for have large amounts of raptors?

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One thing people forget about the new CSM Codex is that they are battle brothers with Chaos Daemons.

The book isn't very well written... But since Daemons are battle brothers the Daemons book might as well be a 'supplement' of sorts to the CSM codex.

Personally I play daemons with CSM allies. CSM on their own do seem a little one dimensional.
   
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 Ailaros wrote:
I don't get it. Some units lost, what, one special rule, and now the codex is unplayable? Certain things went from only one restrictive rules set could get it to anyone can get it, and it's no longer fluffy?

You can still make an alpha legion army where a bunch of stuff infiltrates (with huron), and has a ton of cultists. You can still make a khorne army where everything rushes forwards with extra attacks. You can still make a tzeentch army where you've got more sorcerers than your opponent has units.

You can still make whatever fluffy army you want. Just because a few silly special rules were pitched doesn't change that. You can also still make a CSM army filled with demons. It's called allies.

Really, you're not missing that much. Meanwhile, you've gained a ton, like more specialized versions of older units (warp talons for raptors, mutilators for warp talons, etc.), some fluffy upgrades (new psychic powers and artifacts, among others) and a giant pile of new vehicles.

Doing what you could do before + more stuff = more, not less of what you're looking for here.

If you want to play CSM with a different rules set, then go ahead, but no army is going to be anywhere close to replicating the things you're looking for from CSM. The examples you listed are losing everything just to gain one thing. The end result is going to be less what you're looking for.

Meanwhile, if you don't think you can run a CSM army in the current codex, but could only be done in 3.5, perhaps you should consider revising your opinions on what constitutes a CSM army more than once every decade.



When you say fluffy you mean bad right ? because it doesn't realy matter how many 1kson unit a chaos army takes , when tzeench lore is bad and tzeench lesser sorc are bad. The gigant pile of vehicles comes down to helldrakes , the heavy support ones aren't used , because one is bad and the other is worse then nurgle oblit.
   
 
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