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 somerandomidiot wrote:

I think I've veered away from my original point, which was that I don't feel like I have enough options in my codex to make varied lists that represent the Thousand Sons. This is the result of trying to include multiple distinct armies in one book. It's the exact opposite of what happened with the Blood Angels, who got a book of their own and now have numerous units making them distinct from normal space marines. Even ignoring little things like "Thousand Sons Havocs would be fearless and have a 4+ invul" and "Thousand Sons Terminators should have AP3 combi-bolters", I'm still forced to use a subset of the units in the Chaos codex if I want to play a Thousand Sons force. Don't even mention that a lot of the remaining units are absolutely terrible (seriously, 6+ invul for Mark of Tzeentch? the Tzeentch psychic power table?). I feel like the entire army I play is only one build of the Chaos codex, just like DOA is one build of the Blood Angel codex. The difference is, a DOA list can branch out and include the rest of the Blood Angels army, but if I want to play Thousand Sons, there's no way I can use anything with the Marks of Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Khorne.

Uhh hold on now... the Thousand Sons have never had their own codex; and the Blood Angels have since 2nd edition... you are not comparing apples with apples.

And for absolute certain DOA is not the only build in the BA codex. The argument for not using anything MoS or MoN or MoK is also rather ridiculous - just don't add those marks to your units; done, that was easy.

So have we finally arrived at the crux of the disappointment?

GW is not treating Chaos Marines like they do Imperial Marines? That's never been the case and will never be that way. Other than supplements there won't be a Thousand Sons codex. Nor a Slaanesh one.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 somerandomidiot wrote:

I think I've veered away from my original point, which was that I don't feel like I have enough options in my codex to make varied lists that represent the Thousand Sons. This is the result of trying to include multiple distinct armies in one book. It's the exact opposite of what happened with the Blood Angels, who got a book of their own and now have numerous units making them distinct from normal space marines. Even ignoring little things like "Thousand Sons Havocs would be fearless and have a 4+ invul" and "Thousand Sons Terminators should have AP3 combi-bolters", I'm still forced to use a subset of the units in the Chaos codex if I want to play a Thousand Sons force. Don't even mention that a lot of the remaining units are absolutely terrible (seriously, 6+ invul for Mark of Tzeentch? the Tzeentch psychic power table?). I feel like the entire army I play is only one build of the Chaos codex, just like DOA is one build of the Blood Angel codex. The difference is, a DOA list can branch out and include the rest of the Blood Angels army, but if I want to play Thousand Sons, there's no way I can use anything with the Marks of Slaanesh, Nurgle, or Khorne.

Uhh hold on now... the Thousand Sons have never had their own codex; and the Blood Angels have since 2nd edition... you are not comparing apples with apples.

And for absolute certain DOA is not the only build in the BA codex. The argument for not using anything MoS or MoN or MoK is also rather ridiculous - just don't add those marks to your units; done, that was easy.

I'm arguing that from a design standpoint, Blood Angels and Thousand Sons should be apples and apples. They're both specialized marine chapters, and the fact that they're not currently comparable is the crux of the issue.


Edit: bogalubov I don't think that chaos players expect full codices like regular marines, simply rules in our current codex to support the armies we want to play.

 somerandomidiot wrote:

I'm arguing that from a design standpoint, Blood Angels and Thousand Sons should be apples and apples. They're both specialized marine chapters, and the fact that they're not currently comparable is the crux of the issue.

Edit: bogalubov I don't think that chaos players expect full codices like regular marines, simply rules in our current codex to support the armies we want to play.

Well maybe, but they were never really 'comparable'. Most of the other folks in this thread seem to be wishing for 3.5edCodex which also tried to "include multiple distinct armies in one book" and was terrible imbalanced. We don't see that sort of 'variety' in regards to veteran abilities, mutant crap, wargear, in ANY current codex... the rest well is still mostly the same in the new book.

It's not like making rules for new cult units is all that hard either, the ground rules have been set out so it's easy to make balanced say...plague terminators.

 Kain wrote:
It's not like making rules for new cult units is all that hard either, the ground rules have been set out so it's easy to make balanced say...plague terminators.

Seriously- I'd be happy with a simple "If all units capable of taking Marks of Chaos in the army have the same mark, all infantry share x and y special rules with the cult troops choice." Suddenly I could run actual Thousand Sons terminators, havocs, heck I'd probably even convert some raptors, bikers, chosen...

 somerandomidiot wrote:

 Kain wrote:
It's not like making rules for new cult units is all that hard either, the ground rules have been set out so it's easy to make balanced say...plague terminators.

Seriously- I'd be happy with a simple "If all units capable of taking Marks of Chaos in the army have the same mark, all infantry share x and y special rules with the cult troops choice." Suddenly I could run actual Thousand Sons terminators, havocs, heck I'd probably even convert some raptors, bikers, chosen...

Well first there never really were "plague terminators" ...it was always more like Somerandonidiot just described where certain rules were shared if you followed the restrictions. That said, that is STILL the case, except that not ALL of the rules are shared. You can still take raptors, bikers and chosen with MoT and they will therefore still share some of those specific rules with the "cult" troops.

For that matter, I wish ALL Blood Angels still had furious charge and rage and could assault out of rhinos heh... ...but they can't anymore.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 somerandomidiot wrote:

 Kain wrote:
It's not like making rules for new cult units is all that hard either, the ground rules have been set out so it's easy to make balanced say...plague terminators.

Seriously- I'd be happy with a simple "If all units capable of taking Marks of Chaos in the army have the same mark, all infantry share x and y special rules with the cult troops choice." Suddenly I could run actual Thousand Sons terminators, havocs, heck I'd probably even convert some raptors, bikers, chosen...

Well first there never really were "plague terminators" ...it was always more like Somerandonidiot just described where certain rules were shared. That said, that is STILL the case, except that not ALL of the rules are shared. You can still take raptors, bikers and chosen with MoT and they will therefore still share some of those specific rules with the "cult" troops.

Yeah, but it really kills the theme when my Thousand Son terminators are forced to flee from combat, despite the fact that their brothers in power armor are immune to such things. That kind of inconsistency bothers me, and I'm sure it does for others as well. There's a huge difference between AP3 bolters, fearless, a Sorcerer as a sergeant, and a 4+ invulnerable save and a 6+ invulnerable save. I run Ahriman in a unit of Tzeentch Terminators to make them fearless, and that works pretty well, but I haven't found a way to really integrate other units into my army in an internally consistent way.

Guys, its simple....the chaos legions just give terminator suits to thier innitiates. Then when they prove themselves they earn power armor, FNP, AP3 bolters, sonic weaponry and fearless.

 Musashi363 wrote:
Guys, its simple....the chaos legions just give terminator suits to thier innitiates. Then when they prove themselves they earn power armor, FNP, AP3 bolters, sonic weaponry and fearless.

So then all the crying is essentially about one unit, terminators, and a few extra abilities they miss in this version? And because they lack this one respective power now they are no longer within the theme of your army? Welcome to 40k, see every other codex for reference to how they change..

I don't understand why some non-csm players here are so against letting people field specific CSM Legions. Would it really spoil your day that much to see one Chaos player enjoying an infiltrating Alpha Legion force, and another enjoying a gunline Iron Warriors force? Why are you defending a book which clearly so many people are disappointed in?

As much as I hate to think of it this way - Perhaps 6th CSM was specifically made "Cultless/Legionless" to leave room for plenty of overpriced supplements. Maybe we'll still get our cult armies, just a year late. Yay for 2 pages of rules at full-codex price!

I think you have it wrong. There are no infiltrators in this thread telling CSM players that they can't have cult troops and they should suck it up.

There is just one camp of CSM players (me included) that don't think that it's raining poo and that the only way to play CSM is by by proxy with another codex.

In my opinion, people have unrealistic expectations of what they want from the codex. I think the current codex delivers a medium level of power and combined with the daemon codex, you can field a top tier army.

Not every build is super powerful, but that's the case with any codex. Wave serpent spam and warp spiders are much easier to play for eldar then walking wraithblades. Anyone who fielded a harlequin army in the past is going to be waiting a while until they can do it again. You find this with every book.

So, you can decide not play. Or you can try to explore the book and find what you can make work.

 Musashi363 wrote:
Guys, its simple....the chaos legions just give terminator suits to thier innitiates. Then when they prove themselves they earn power armor, FNP, AP3 bolters, sonic weaponry and fearless.

Except the Word Bearers series is very clear that only the best of the best are even considered to gain the honor of wearing terminator armor, and in less well organized legions you have to kill the previous owner and strip the armor from his body to get yours. Said other guy is usually a veteran of the long war who's already slaughtered hundreds who wanted his suit and even more on the battlefield.

 SirDigby wrote:
the 3.5 Codex. It was relatively balanced,.

BAhahahahah. Seriously? Balanced?

Personally I just wanted hqs that would change the army to feel like I was playing this army or that army (Vulkan He'Stan, Pedro Kantor, etc). A HQ for Thousand Sons that made them replace Champions of chaos with *this* etc etc. Perhaps even make it a payable upgrade on hqs to let your army benefit from it (obviously for a price. Admittedly this would be hard to balance but rumours say SM might be doing it)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
Guys, its simple....the chaos legions just give terminator suits to thier innitiates. Then when they prove themselves they earn power armor, FNP, AP3 bolters, sonic weaponry and fearless.

Except the Word Bearers series is very clear that only the best of the best are even considered to gain the honor of wearing terminator armor, and in less well organized legions you have to kill the previous owner and strip the armor from his body to get yours. Said other guy is usually a veteran of the long war who's already slaughtered hundreds who wanted his suit and even more on the battlefield.

And I think Thousand Sons would have a problem swapping armour

3.5 balanced? Oh heck no.
Fluffy? Yes. Fun to play wuth and against if the csm player softened his list a bit, sure.

Balanced? Oh no. Kid me not.

Though I'm curious how it would hold up if you brought it out to play in this edition... Point costs have lowered slowly but steadily in the 3 editions since, but I'm actually considering rummaging for it in my storage unit, and taking it out for a spin...

Most of the USRs should be working...

Anyone tried it? Just for gaks and giggles I mean?

I can understand th OPs frustration about Terminators. I was jumping up and down from the rumours of marks and icons, until it became clear that the FnP Icon wasn't for my FW Deathguard terminators to have... (Still find it fun that PMs are more survivable statisticly against most shots at worsr than ap3... Heck, I'm also kinda peeved that the traitors "forgot" to bring alot of their stuff, like corrupted machine spirits, and most importantly the god darn drop pods...

But I can also agree with the others in this thread, on the other side of the fence; I'm having a blast with this dex... All none EC, DG or TS legions can be WELL represented, and seriously, I can live without sonic weaponry on my EC terminators, AP3 combibolters on the TS termies, and FnP for the DG termies.
Throwing a nurgle IC with acess to blight grenades for the DG ones help out alot too.

As others have stated earlier:
IW? Bring IG allies and a craptonne of Daemon engines.
WB? Bring a dark apostle and daemon allies, or even Daemons as primary.
AL? Huron or Ahriman as count as, cultists and/or IG allies.
NL? Same as above, but a heavy focus on FA.
WE? Kharn, berserkers, and marked and iconed whatever from the dex...

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
Guys, its simple....the chaos legions just give terminator suits to thier innitiates. Then when they prove themselves they earn power armor, FNP, AP3 bolters, sonic weaponry and fearless.

So then all the crying is essentially about one unit, terminators, and a few extra abilities they miss in this version? And because they lack this one respective power now they are no longer within the theme of your army? Welcome to 40k, see every other codex for reference to how they change..

nope, it would take a hell of alot more then that to make me happy. it doesnt take long to see it was just a rushed rehash of the old book. and the old book was also really generic and boring.

chaos got dinobots hellturkeys and crap random tables... awesome.

 Jag_Calle wrote:
(Still find it fun that PMs are more survivable statisticly against most shots at worsr than ap3...

The same way that almost every other type of Marine is, for its points cost, more survivable than a Terminator? Oh, the horror!

I kind of wish they had made the Boon of Chaos specifically for winning fights.

But at the same time, allowed you to BUY MUTATIONS. Seriously, we aren't Space Marines, we should be able to buy +1S because our chaos lord grew giant arms that could deck your standard MEQ because his fists now are bigger then a boltgun. It would show some differentiation once again between a SM: Captain, and a CSM Chaos lord.

We got nothing we wanted and a few things we didn't.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
Guys, its simple....the chaos legions just give terminator suits to thier innitiates. Then when they prove themselves they earn power armor, FNP, AP3 bolters, sonic weaponry and fearless.

So then all the crying is essentially about one unit, terminators, and a few extra abilities they miss in this version? And because they lack this one respective power now they are no longer within the theme of your army? Welcome to 40k, see every other codex for reference to how they change..

Ok but let if you take your BA and check what you lost in 2 edition you will still find out that you gained stuff too. flamestorm baals or the storm raven or the blender dread. The 1ksons got nothing in the last 2 codex , the WE got nothing in the last 2 codex , the NM got nothing in the last 2 codex and so on . They did on the other hand lose stuff like cult terminators , thrall sorc ,in codex demons without runing ally etc.

Also my world eaters are sad about Bezerkers getting worse each edition while Plague Marines just keep on getting better.

Wow the reading comprehension is amazing here! No, terminators are not the only unit with a problem. If you read my other post (which obviously you didn't) you'd see a few others. I could go on and name all of them...but what would be the point? You wouldn't read them. A conversation is supposed to go two ways buddy. Don't just use the time you should have been using to read our posts to think about what you are going to write. But YES, the extremely unfluffy terminators are a problem...one of many.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus Thousand Sons wouldn't have to "swap" armor if they were wearing terminator armor when the Rubric went off. This goes for bikers, raptors, techmarines, vehicle crew etc etc etc....

Makumba wrote:

Ok but let if you take your BA and check what you lost in 2 edition you will still find out that you gained stuff too. flamestorm baals or the storm raven or the blender dread. The 1ksons got nothing in the last 2 codex , the WE got nothing in the last 2 codex , the NM got nothing in the last 2 codex and so on . They did on the other hand lose stuff like cult terminators , thrall sorc ,in codex demons without runing ally etc.

Well first we are talking about 3rd edition; I'd LOVE to see how much you cry if we reverted back to the 2nd ed Chaos hah. And the Blood Angels lost UNIVERSAL Furious Charge and Rage - I want it back!!@!! ...and universal ability to Assault Out of fast moving Rhinos!!! -- I want it Back!@!@!! ...better scouts and a few other things... my army is not fluffy without them!! Wah Wah Wah... but it was 10 fracken years ago; I got over it... they gave us other stuff "we really didn't want" but it turned out ok.

As for "WE got nothing" and the poor plight of the horrible victim Chaos player... it... is... pathetic. For one thing the Chaos codex is one of the better codex; gah and you dare to make comparisons to the Blood Angels lol; secondly you have to ability to get what 'you want' but the only difference is a few abilities. In the totally unbalanced 3.5 codex (from 10 years ago!) there were no true Plague marines or Berserker marines... Berkserker/Plague/etc were just Chaos Space Marines with the respective Mark! You can do exactly the same thing now - there are just a few rules differences and most you can make up in other ways... you can be Fearless with the 'icon of vengeance' etc... You gained several new and useful units even if you choose to ignore them and it was clear from the start that this codex and the Daemon codex were meant to work together. Further this IS how the game as a whole has changed; look at the rest of the codex as a whole.

 Gunzhard wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Ok but let if you take your BA and check what you lost in 2 edition you will still find out that you gained stuff too. flamestorm baals or the storm raven or the blender dread. The 1ksons got nothing in the last 2 codex , the WE got nothing in the last 2 codex , the NM got nothing in the last 2 codex and so on . They did on the other hand lose stuff like cult terminators , thrall sorc ,in codex demons without runing ally etc.

Well first we are talking about 3rd edition; I'd LOVE to see how much you cry if we reverted back to the 2nd ed Chaos hah. And the Blood Angels lost UNIVERSAL Furious Charge and Rage - I want it back!!@!! ...and universal ability to Assault Out of fast moving Rhinos!!! -- I want it Back!@!@!! ...better scouts and a few other things... but it was 10 fracken years ago; I got over it... they gave us other stuff "we really didn't want" but it turned out ok.

As for "WE got nothing" and the poor plight of the horrible victim Chaos player... it... is... pathetic. For one thing the Chaos codex is one of the better codex; gah and you dare to make comparisons to the Blood Angels lol; secondly you have to ability to get what 'you want' but the only difference is a few abilities. In the totally unbalanced 3.5 codex (from 10 years ago!) there were no true Plague marines or Berserker marines... Berkserker/Plague/etc were just Chaos Space Marines with the respective Mark! You can do exactly the same thing now - there are just a few rules differences and most you can make up in other ways... you can be Fearless with the 'icon of vengeance' etc... You gained several new and useful units even if you choose to ignore them and it was clear from the start that this codex and the Daemon codex were meant to work together. Further this IS how the game as a whole has changed; look at the rest of the codex as a whole.

Are you serious? Because you apparently didn't read the book then, because the Mark actually upgraded them to full status Cult troop, and we're counted as elites unless you took an HQ (Yes there was Lords of Tzeentch and Slaaneshi Sorcerer lords) with the respective mark. You couldn't have marked troops without a lord unlocking them unless you wanted them as elite troops

For example, giving a CSM troop MoT would upgrade the Aspiring Champion to a Sorcerer, giving them access to the full Tzeentch library of equipment while the rest became Rubric, chosen/possessed became an entire Sorcerer Squad, and Sorcerers gained the ability to pass psyker tests more easily due to the fact that the Psykers of Tzeentch aren't weaker casters like those of nurgle or slaanesh. Look at them now! Only able to take a cult troop, lack of sorcerer squads, and being the worst Cult Troop in the entire book for two straight editions. Not to mention their casters are pathetic in comparison to the others! This group got hit harder then mine and I feel sorry for those who believe that the 4th/6th edition trash was an upgrade.

For one thing the Chaos codex is one of the better codex;

Hahaha, that's just straight up funny.

You gained several new and useful units even if you choose to ignore them and it was clear from the start that this codex and the Daemon codex were meant to work together.

A codex should be able to stand on it's own two feet, unless of course they arbitrarily ripped deamons from the codex just to make them support each other again? But I guess you enjoy the baleflame spam.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
[
Are you serious? Because you apparently didn't read the book then, because the Mark actually upgraded them to full status Cult troop, and we're counted as elites unless you took an HQ (Yes there was Lords of Tzeentch and Slaaneshi Sorcerer lords) with the respective mark. You couldn't have marked troops without a lord unlocking them unless you wanted them as elite troops.

Oh how very similar to the way the current codex works. You all are just caught up on the word 'cult troop'... the only difference was there was one sentence that said, if you give these Chaos Space Marines the Mark of X and follow these restrictions you get these few extra rules. It's a ridiculous argument; 'now they don't get those _extra_ rules so they are not fluffy cult troops wah' ...

Further if you are trying to say this codex is not competitive in the current game; understanding you might have some difficulty with some jerk WAAC builds like everyone else; then you really have no credibility.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
[
Are you serious? Because you apparently didn't read the book then, because the Mark actually upgraded them to full status Cult troop, and we're counted as elites unless you took an HQ (Yes there was Lords of Tzeentch and Slaaneshi Sorcerer lords) with the respective mark. You couldn't have marked troops without a lord unlocking them unless you wanted them as elite troops.

Oh how very similar to the way the current codex works. You all are just caught up on the word 'cult troop'... the only difference was there was one sentence that said, if you give these Chaos Space Marines the Mark of X and follow these restrictions you get these few extra rules. It's a ridiculous argument; 'now they don't get those _extra_ rules so they are not fluffy cult troops wah' ...

Further if you are trying to say this codex is not competitive in the current game; understanding you might have some difficulty with some jerk WAAC builds like everyone else; then you really have no credibility.

Well seeing as the only thing that's giving the codex a boost is Heldrakes... I guess they can be competitive if you love nurgle, flying heldrakes, and oblits.

It's only ridiculous if you don't believe they should be able to get those actual, decent rules back. Maybe it'll happen with supplements, who knows. All I know is that the CSM codex has simply degraded since than.

Aside from your constant attempts to belittle others at this point and time. I'd suggest being a bit less hostile in your posting.

bogalubov wrote:
To address the fluff concerns about legions. They're all supposed to be fractured. It's been 10,000 years. Most of the participants of the Horus Heresy are dead. Most of the legions don't do stuff together. The primarchs are off doing their own thing. People like Ahriman and Lucious are doing their own thing. There are no legions. That's why it's codex chaos space marines, not codex chaos legions. The FW Horus Heresy supplements are there to allow people to play corrupted legions.

This is a retcon. And this is what makes a lot of Chaos players angry. A lot of players got into the army because they liked the idea of the legions and wanted to play a legion army. Then GW does an about face and says there are no legions anymore only mix-and-match Chaos skittles warbanz. GW wants you to play the army one way and these players want to play it another way. Therefore disappoint.

I guess we should all just accept that until GW decides it wants to hock some new cult terminator models (i.e., never) they just don't exist. And this makes sense. Kharn killed, maimed and burned all the World Eater and Emperor's Children terminators on Skallathrax. The Thousand Sons terminators all bit the dust at the Battle of the Fang. Also I'm pretty sure Draigo single-handedly carved his initials onto the hearts of every last Death Guard terminator except for Typhus. Case closed. Enjoy your warbanz.

 Jag_Calle wrote:
3.5 balanced? Oh heck no.
Fluffy? Yes. Fun to play wuth and against if the csm player softened his list a bit, sure.

Balanced? Oh no. Kid me not.

GW has never produced a balanced codex . They can make a bad codex , they can make a very good codex , but they never created an internaly or externaly balanced codex. From what I understand the 3.5 codex made it possible to make many different armies for different legions .The dex must have given people what they wanted , because if 1ksons players think about it fondly , it must have been better then what they have now .

The thing is that the wussy undivided legions can be easily represented, but the cult legions who had the balls to go with just one god? No cult termies, raptors, dreadnoughts, tanks, havocs, engines, bikers, possesed, or non SC lords/sorcerers for you!