Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Plus he's playing the "magical christmastime" card of 20 berserkers actually making it into combat which never happens. Using "magical christmasland" logic, a LVL2 Librarian is 100, 50 Guard is 200, then let's say 5 plasma guns and a couple power axes for the sergeants. Divination gives rerolls to hit, first rank fire second rank fire is putting out a ton of shots. Those berserkers will die so hard. How about Necron Wraiths? They won't be able to do anything and they will cry home all the way.
20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
.
Calculated hits without charge: (Because let's face it, if the wraiths want to, they'll keep as far away as they want from it, and should they come into a position, will simply charge first to deny rage/FC)
40 attacks (If the entire group is somehow able to get in range, optimal conditions)
Hit chance: 66.67%
Average hits: 26.667
Wound rate: 50%
Wound count on average: 13.333
Wounds saved on a 3++: 8.889
Unsaved Wounds: 4.444
Two models killed, and seeing as most wraiths come in three and have whip coils, that entire group won't be striking first either.
Of course it's also the cost of three canoptek squads (Not counting destroyer lord IC), and fighting necrons who have a vast variety of ways of shooting it down..
You forgot Counter-attack, but I forgot the fact that Wraiths have 2 wounds each. Regardless, 400 points isn't 3 units of 6 Wraiths, it's more like 2. The remaining 9 Wraiths would only kill 7 Berzerkers and then be stuck grinding away at eachother. If the Champion has a Power Fist, that'd end rather badly for the Wraiths.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
You forgot Counter-attack, but I forgot the fact that Wraiths have 2 wounds each. Regardless, 400 points isn't 3 units of 6 Wraiths, it's more like 2. The remaining 9 Wraiths would only kill 7 Berzerkers and then be stuck grinding away at eachother. If the Champion has a Power Fist, that'd end rather badly for the Wraiths.
Whoops, I had forgotten counter-attack in return.
Also I was meaning three groups of three (I've never really seen a full 6 group before, but then the Necrons I face don't use destroyer lords)
You forgot Counter-attack, but I forgot the fact that Wraiths have 2 wounds each. Regardless, 400 points isn't 3 units of 6 Wraiths, it's more like 2. The remaining 9 Wraiths would only kill 7 Berzerkers and then be stuck grinding away at eachother. If the Champion has a Power Fist, that'd end rather badly for the Wraiths.
Whoops, I had forgotten counter-attack in return.
Also I was meaning three groups of three (I've never really seen a full 6 group before, but then the Necrons I face don't use destroyer lords)
Well, considering the Berzerkers more or less tie with 2 units of 6, 3 units of 3 would probably fare worse still.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Black Library is indeed canon. Hate to burst your bubble. (Just kidding, I love bursting your bubble in particular). You can pretend it's not, but it is.
You're not bursting my bubble. I know large parts of dakka suffer that delusion.
And I don't need to pretend anything. I can just read the statements made by authors such as Dan Abnett or Aaron Dembski-Bowden.
"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong." -- Gav Thorpe
"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth." -- Andy Hoare
"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting." -- Aaron Dembski-Bowden
You might be bursting Black Library's bubble though, cause they fought long and hard to have creative license and not be forced to write "canon".
Than again, you're probably bursting not any bubbles unless you actually back up your opinion about why BL should be canon with something other than.. well.. your opinion.
Black Library is indeed canon. Hate to burst your bubble. (Just kidding, I love bursting your bubble in particular). You can pretend it's not, but it is.
You're not bursting my bubble. I know large parts of dakka suffer that delusion.
And I don't need to pretend anything. I can just read the statements made by authors such as Dan Abnett or Aaron Dembski-Bowden.
"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong." -- Gav Thorpe
"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth." -- Andy Hoare
"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting." -- Aaron Dembski-Bowden
You might be bursting Black Library's bubble though, cause they fought long and hard to have creative license and not be forced to write "canon".
Than again, you're probably bursting not any bubbles unless you actually back up your opinion about why BL should be canon with something other than.. well.. your opinion.
"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.
Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
"In further conversation, George emphasized that Black Library’s main objective was to 'tell good stories'. He agreed that some points in certain novels could, perhaps, have benefited from the editor’s red pen (a certain multilaser was mentioned) but was at pains to explain that, just as each hobbyist tends to interpret the background and facts of the Warhammer and 40K worlds differently, so does each author. In essence, each author represents an “alternative” version of the respective worlds. After pressing him further, he explained that only the Studio material (rulebooks, codexes, army books and suchlike) was canonical in that it HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels. There was no obligation on authors to adhere to facts and events as spelled out in Black Library work.
It's official, that much is said and agreed upon Zwei.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/28 11:46:14
They're saying that nothing is canon, codices included.
Everything is just one of many interpretations, all equally valid, including outright fanfiction so long as the 40k logo is on it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/28 11:46:41
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
MWHistorian wrote: If you have to substitute core chaos units like zerkers and 1ksons for other rules, then there's something very wrong.
"Our codex sucks so much, you have to use other codexes instead!" That's not a good selling point.
No it definitely is not a good selling point. The other scary thing is how relatively new it is. It hasn't been out very long, and it is already showing major problems.
It is virtually impossible to make an army out of the CSM book by itself that will win a major tournament. In fact, I would say it can't be done in the current meta. The options
are just not there, and 2-3 Heldrakes isn't going to do it.
I think we will see this quite often with the new codex releases. They're looking at releasing them every 2 months (?), they're all going to be rush jobs IMO. I can see many new codexes with severe flaws and one decent flyer. I'm glad the SW codex isn't getting updated for a while - something tells me the new one will be awful!
I just don't think they apply any logic or rationality when they make the codexes nowadays? They're not framed within the context of the rules and other codexes, they're seemingly not framed in any way what-so-ever.
I still love to play 40k. But I'm getting more and more out of small scale skirmish games (Necromunda/Infinity!).
Back in the day, we were epic Space Vikings with horns, and beer, and stupid mockney accents, and we didn't have any truck with this flying around like a pansy shizzle. We certainly didn't surround ourselves with mangy animals.
Now we're basically the Bestiality Chapter.
We also now ride chariots and employ daemonic dreadnoughts...also, we fly and teleport with abandon. With wolves.
MWHistorian wrote: If you have to substitute core chaos units like zerkers and 1ksons for other rules, then there's something very wrong. "Our codex sucks so much, you have to use other codexes instead!" That's not a good selling point.
No it definitely is not a good selling point. The other scary thing is how relatively new it is. It hasn't been out very long, and it is already showing major problems.
It is virtually impossible to make an army out of the CSM book by itself that will win a major tournament. In fact, I would say it can't be done in the current meta. The options are just not there, and 2-3 Heldrakes isn't going to do it.
I think we will see this quite often with the new codex releases. They're looking at releasing them every 2 months (?), they're all going to be rush jobs IMO. I can see many new codexes with severe flaws and one decent flyer. I'm glad the SW codex isn't getting updated for a while - something tells me the new one will be awful!
I just don't think they apply any logic or rationality when they make the codexes nowadays? They're not framed within the context of the rules and other codexes, they're seemingly not framed in any way what-so-ever.
I still love to play 40k. But I'm getting more and more out of small scale skirmish games (Necromunda/Infinity!).
Agreed. have an Exalt
I find this true with the current latest codex's (i.e. Tau and Eldar), I think they just thought of a cool rule (such as supporting fire and battle focus for example) and just wrote it in with no time to playtest it. I constantly get a good thumping with my CSM not because of what my opponents take, which I have nothing against, its what happens with some generic rules that the games developers wrote just to make the codex different from its previous version, that people can use and I effectively have no defence against that army because... well... its too quick, before I get the chance to fight back I already see all my MEQ's gone in a flash.. my CSM squads have been AP 2 shot to death or have been shot from afar, and that makes them dead as a door nail without getting much back from that squad...
I now feel like im having to be shoehorned into a Plague marines, Noise marines and Helldrakes soon, just to combat the armies just released and tbh it is a sad day when some rules form different armies change your list so much that you have to choose these options because anything else is just plainly is not viable anymore. That should not be the case imo, you should be changing your list because your opponent has a better strategic mind, not because of some rules here and there, but that's just my opinion. I also agree that I feel like I am also getting more out of skirmish games now or games that require not at lot of models now, to me I am getting more fun out of them than I do with my CSM... Oh well hopefully Orks will get their update next year and I will have a blast with them.. hopefully..
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/28 13:12:25
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/28 15:16:09
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
Uhhhhh....have you ever played against Wraiths before? They move 12", ignore cover, and can have Whipcoils so you are striking last. So more like if Berserkers get the charge.
50 Guard is 250 points, 5 Plasma Guns is another 75 and Power Axes go for 10 points a pop. Without the Librarian you're at 375 points. With the Librarian, you're going to have to outspend the Berzerkers to get that unit alone, not to mention the other ally tax parts, and you'll still not kill enough Berzerkers with that blob to stop them from getting into CC with you. You don't take an IG blob with a MEQHQ for its killing power, you take it because it's a lot of bodies that won't be going anywhere anytime soon.
Right, I'm used to playing Conscripts so that's why I said 200.
Even with 40 Guard at 200, then 4 plasma guns is 260. Level 2 Librarian makes it 360. Platoon Command Squad makes it 390.
A Prescienced Squad of 40 Guard with Plasma Guns with First Rank Fire spits out 64 lasgun shots, 48 hit, 16 wound, 5.3 Berserkers bite the dust. Then with 4 plasma guns, 3 hit, 2.49 Berserkers bite the dust. 7.82 die at 24" away. There's no way they're going to make it into combat with more than 5 guys at the very best.
A Prescienced Guard blob has a lot more killing power than you would expect, trust me on that one. :3
As someone who plays Black Templars, blobs of 20 get into close combat much more often than you'd imagine. It's not that easy to put down 40+ MEQs/SEQs (is there even an expression for T4 4+ infantry? If not, they are now "Scout equivalents") before they reach your lines, and Khorne Berzerkers are all MEQ.
You mean, maybe 5 or 6 guys make it into combat? I seriously doubt that a full blob of 20 guys is going to make it into combat intact.
:edit: ZebioLizard2 took care of Zwei
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/07/28 17:30:03
Kain wrote: They're saying that nothing is canon, codices included.
Everything is just one of many interpretations, all equally valid, including outright fanfiction so long as the 40k logo is on it.
They are.
But it is Black Library that is saying it to safeguard their (hard-won) freedom to be able to write stuff that disagrees with the Studio stuff.
It's important to realize who is pushing this idea of "everything and nothing is equally valid" (e.g. Black Library) and why (precisely so they are not bound by some Studio-canon),
Again, see Dan Abnett (Minute 17 forward)
That "paradigm" of "everything is personal interpretation", which is referenced throughout, is one build up by Black Library to defend the encroachment of the Studio trying to force "canon" on them, which they resisted.
"In further conversation, George emphasized that Black Library’s main objective was to 'tell good stories'. He agreed that some points in certain novels could, perhaps, have benefited from the editor’s red pen (a certain multilaser was mentioned) but was at pains to explain that, just as each hobbyist tends to interpret the background and facts of the Warhammer and 40K worlds differently, so does each author. In essence, each author represents an “alternative” version of the respective worlds. After pressing him further, he explained that only the Studio material (rulebooks, codexes, army books and suchlike) was canonical in that it HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels. There was no obligation on authors to adhere to facts and events as spelled out in Black Library work.
It's official, that much is said and agreed upon Zwei.
??? Did you even read the stuff you quoted Zebro?
They prove my point better than my own quotes do
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/07/28 17:47:32
20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
Uhhhhh....have you ever played against Wraiths before? They move 12", ignore cover, and can have Whipcoils so you are striking last. So more like if Berserkers get the charge.
Whip Coils increase your cost and only work on models in B2B anyway. The underlined part wasn't to question if Wraiths got the charge or not (they probably would, as you say), it was to point out that it's best-case scenario for the Wraiths.
Also, see previous posts for explanation of error in my calculation.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
somerandomidiot wrote: Ok, let me preface this with: my primary army is Thousand Sons. I have a beautifully painted Thousand Sons army, and I regularly take them to both local tournaments and GTs and do decently well with them. In my local scene particularly, I do very well. That said...
The real issue with the 6th edition Chaos Marine book is that it doesn't support the armies that people want to play. GW has given us this AMAZING backstory with chaos legions, the Horus Heresy, chaos gods, and then given us a codex that doesn't represent that at all. When I look at the 6th edition Chaos book (and the last one, for that matter) what I see is a book intended to represent chaos renegade forces.
I think a comparison best illustrates this. If I wanted to start an Eldar army, and I really enjoyed the fluff of Ulthwe, I'm given some background guidance (Ulthwe is heavily focused in psychic powers, and they utilize black guardians) but at the end of the day, an Ulthwe force can contain EVERY unit in the Eldar codex. This allows an Ulthwe player to use the full width and breadth of his codex to build everything from purely fluffy lists to extreme competitive ones. On the other hand, we have my Thousand Sons army. I'm given some background guidance (the Thousand Sons are heavily psychic focused, every marine is either a psyker or dust in a suit of armor, they worship Tzeentch). But unlike the Ulthwe army, there are numerous units in my codex that do not belong in my Thousand Sons force. Ignoring small issues like Tzeentch-marked Terminators not actually being Thousand Sons terminators (which while annoying, is a battle I gave up on long ago), I'm still playing with a SIGNIFICANTLY reduced codex. I can't speak for the other chaos legion players, but I have a feeling they'd probably agree with me.
Now, you may argue that there's nothing preventing me from running Plague Marines, or a Khorne lord on a Juggernaut, or anything else for that matter, but I believe that the fluff is very clear, those units don't belong in a Thousand Sons army. Games Workshop has sold me on an army concept and then failed to deliver the rules to support it. Imagine if the background for Iyanden stated that every living Eldar on the craftworld was dead, and only the Wraith constructs were left. Iyanden players would be limited to a very small number of units if they wished to remain consistent with the background. Sure, they can take all of the other units, but they would have to paint them in the colors of other craftworlds. It wouldn't be an Iyanden army any more, it'd be a coalition of Eldar forces. I doubt Iyanden players would be very happy with the current Eldar book if that was the case.
I hope what you're getting from this isn't "I want the Chaos book to be all powerful and crush everyone, with millions of options." What I hope you get from this is that I want to have access to a full codex's list of options and units regardless of the theme I choose to play (without completely overpowering the player who chooses to ignore fluff and take simply the most powerful options), instead of having each theme limit me to a fraction of the codex. I've stopped expanding my Thousand Sons army because I won't ever use more than the models I have in a single game. My list of thematic choices removes a large number of possibilities from the codex, and every one of those is a unit that I will never buy or paint. Not only is this frustrating for me as a player, but I can't imagine GW is happy with the situation either- they've produced many kits that supposedly cater to my chosen army, but that I will never purchase.
I love how everyone ignored this.
This is exactly what it feels like to play any type of fluffy army. Fourth Ed and Fifth Ed allowed that. But Sixth ed kind of got rid of that fluffyness. In Codex Space Marines. I went from having apothecaries in every squad that can dual wield bolters and chainswords but I can't take fast attack to veteran sergeants with no fluffy weapons.
Chaos Space Marines codex should be renamed as Space Marine : Renegades. Not a chaos book per say. As it does not give you the options to kit out your army the way you want.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
in that it HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels.
Did you?
It says that the studio work can ignore the black library stuff if it wants to, but that black library stuff can't ignore the studio.
That means it's Official till changed bro.
But that was the point.
The question was, whether or not things unique to Black Library books (e.g. the details of the Word Bearers' Dark Council and the supposed unit it instills across the Word Bearer splinter groups) has any relevance to the 40K Canon. Since it is only mentioned in Black Library novels, not in Studio-stuff, and by the things you quote, studio people (writing, for example, a Chaos Space Marine Codex) are free to ignore it, it's not canon.
Whether or not Black Library has to respect the Codex is irrelevant. The fact is, that trying to make claims that a given Codex (e.g. Chaos Space Marines) is a bad representation of Chaos fluff because it doesn't synch with something in a Black Library book goes the other way.
I never said you can ignore the Studio
I said you can ignore Black Library (e.g. the Word Bearer trilogy, the Iron Warriors books, the Night Lords trilogy, etc..), when talking about canon Chaos Space Marine fluff.
It's the same thing you have with ... dunno .. non-canon Star Wars fan-fiction. Even the non-canon stuff cannot ignore the canon. They have to respect the basic things, e.g. Luke Skywalker destroyed the Death Star, etc.. . Doesn't mean that they are canon in return.
Ergo
GW Studio = Should not be contradicted = Canon
Black Library = Can be ignored/contradicted = Not Canon
No?
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2013/07/28 18:17:12
That's not how it works, but at the same time I'm not gonna press further because I know you're not exactly going to change your tune.
Well. How does it work?
If I am missing something vital, I'd be thankful for some enlightenment.
The entire discussion was initiated by the claim that the CSM Codex was "unfluffy" because it didn't allow you to make mono-Legion armies as seen in Black Library books (e.g. Word Bearers, Iron Warrior, etc..).
If, by your own admission, the Codex writers are free to ignore the Black Library books, I don't see how a Codex could be judged against things established in a Black Library novel?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/28 18:31:30
All sources save for the 6e codex concerning the Word Bearers agree that the 17th Legion (And the Iron warriors to a lesser extent) is special for maintaining so much unity and that the Dark Council leads it at the behest of the first chaplain and keeper of faith. Including past Codexes in fact. I can even bring in Void Dragon to give you a more detailed explanation as typing long blocks of text on a tab is a pain.
It seems that Kelly is the one in error here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/28 18:37:29
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Kain wrote: All sources save for the 6e codex concerning the Word Bearers agree that the 17th Legion is special for maintaining so much unity and that the Dark Council leads it at the behest of the first chaplain and keeper of faith. I can even bring in Void Dragon to give you a more detailed explanation as typing long blocks of text on a tab is a pain.
It seems that Kelly is the one in error here.
Perhaps.
But the most recent Codex is the one that counts. It supersedes older Codex books. It supersedes Black Library books. It's the official version as it stands.
Was it a mistake? Maybe.
Are the Black Library versions better? Probably
Is Phil Kelly a tool that can't be bothered to do proper research? Most definitely.
Doesn't change the fact that the 6th Edition Chaos Codex is the "canonical" entry we have.
Kain wrote: All sources save for the 6e codex concerning the Word Bearers agree that the 17th Legion is special for maintaining so much unity and that the Dark Council leads it at the behest of the first chaplain and keeper of faith. I can even bring in Void Dragon to give you a more detailed explanation as typing long blocks of text on a tab is a pain.
It seems that Kelly is the one in error here.
Perhaps.
But the most recent Codex is the one that counts. It supersedes older Codex books. It supersedes Black Library books. It's the official version as it stands.
Was it a mistake? Maybe.
Are the Black Library versions better? Probably
Is Phil Kelly a tool that can't be bothered to do proper research? Most definitely.
Doesn't change the fact that the 6th Edition Chaos Codex is the "canonical" entry we have.
It's probably a bad attempt at retconning literally everything written about the Word Bearers so you can shoehorn Dark Apostles into your WARBANZ.
That being said making a mono 17th legion list is easy.
Dark Apostle
Chaos Lord ((Call him a Coryphaus))
Elites are a split between these
Terminators (Named the anointed but otherwise normal)
Possessed
Helbrutes
Troops
Lots of cultists to soak bullets
Marines with an Icon of vengeance each
Fast attack
Chaos spawn or Dreadclaws
Heavy support
Havocs or Tanks, your choice.
Take few or no marks, only take undivided weapons and rewards.
Allies.
Stuff with daemons, just as long as it's not a monogod Daemon list, the 17th hates monotheists.
And you're done, it's not even all that uncompetetive.
Some think that having the Daemons be the primary detatchment is better but YMMV.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/28 18:52:05
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
I have been accused of ignorance. So where is a question. What is wrong with using "counts as"?
I mean if a unit is from a different, god, just use the unit and say it's another unit? Nothing wrong in using "counts as".
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Davor wrote: I have been accused of ignorance. So where is a question. What is wrong with using "counts as"?
I mean if a unit is from a different, god, just use the unit and say it's another unit? Nothing wrong in using "counts as".
Because counts as still doesn't give me Noise bikers, Plague termies, Rubric havocs, or Bezerker raptors.
And yet I can and have easily made undivided legion lists, which is insulting to me as a fan of the cult legions, to the point that my group made our own rules and models for them.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Davor wrote: I have been accused of ignorance. So where is a question. What is wrong with using "counts as"?
I mean if a unit is from a different, god, just use the unit and say it's another unit? Nothing wrong in using "counts as".
Because counts as still doesn't give me Noise bikers, Plague termies, Rubric havocs, or Bezerker raptors.
And yet I can and have easily made undivided legion lists, which is insulting to me as a fan of the cult legions, to the point that my group made our own rules and models for them.
Ok look - this is basically why this entire whine sequence as regards to "fluff" has no credibility, and why the plight of poor chaos players has garnered little support... there NEVER WERE truly Noise Biker units or Plague Termies, or Rubric Havocs; Chaos players love 'fluff' unless it was written before or after the broken/unbalanced 3.5 edition Codex. In the 3.5Ed CSM codex you could NOT buy Noise Bikers or Rubric Havocs etc... you gave Chaos Space Marines an appropriate 'Mark' and additionally if you followed some certain restrictions you got a few other shared rules. This "Cult troops" idea is a misnomer. Except for the additional shared rules - Fluff wise this codex is NO different than any previous.
Now I get it - nobody likes to see their models/units lose something they once had (even if it was 10 years ago!) - but that IS literally what's happened with EVERY codex. CSM players love to compare Blood Angels but again Blood Angels gained some silly units - but lost universal Furious Charge, and universal Rage, and universal ability to Assault-out-of-overcharged-rhinos etc... all "fluffy" things that one could argue "define the chapter". In the interest of balance; the codex have all changed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/28 19:24:45
I already expressed a dislike of the 3.5e codex for blatant Iron Warriors favoratism and being a stupid, clunky thing so I don't get your point.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Davor wrote: I have been accused of ignorance. So where is a question. What is wrong with using "counts as"?
I mean if a unit is from a different, god, just use the unit and say it's another unit? Nothing wrong in using "counts as".
Because counts as still doesn't give me Noise bikers, Plague termies, Rubric havocs, or Bezerker raptors.
And yet I can and have easily made undivided legion lists, which is insulting to me as a fan of the cult legions, to the point that my group made our own rules and models for them.
So if your group made your own rules and models, what is the problem? Are you not having fun now on how Chaos should be?
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Davor wrote: I have been accused of ignorance. So where is a question. What is wrong with using "counts as"?
I mean if a unit is from a different, god, just use the unit and say it's another unit? Nothing wrong in using "counts as".
Because counts as still doesn't give me Noise bikers, Plague termies, Rubric havocs, or Bezerker raptors.
And yet I can and have easily made undivided legion lists, which is insulting to me as a fan of the cult legions, to the point that my group made our own rules and models for them.
So if your group made your own rules and models, what is the problem? Are you not having fun now on how Chaos should be?
Nobody should suffer Codex: nurglite black legion alone.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Now I get it - nobody likes to see their models/units lose something they once had (even if it was 10 years ago!) - but that IS literally what's happened with EVERY codex. CSM players love to compare Blood Angels but again Blood Angels gained some silly units - but lost universal Furious Charge, and universal Rage, and universal ability to Assault-out-of-overcharged-rhinos etc... all "fluffy" things that one could argue "define the chapter". In the interest of balance; the codex have all changed.
Your realy comparing an BA using two rules two chaos players having ton of models illegal? From what I understand when the 4ed chaos codex came all NM were left with illegal bikers ,dreads , preds , havocks, lords ,AL lost cultists and so on . That is a bit different then losing FC. losing FC or to be more precise getting FC no longer base , but as a rule that an apothecary gives out , then having illegal models which you can't use because of WYSIWYG.
If BA codex removed tacticals , DC honor guard , change to arment of tacticals to something no one else uses and put all of them on bikes .
And if you claim that chaos players cry because 3.5 dex was op and 4th wasn't , then you are wrong . in 4th ed codex everyone got 9 oblits and cheap demon princes x2
Now I get it - nobody likes to see their models/units lose something they once had (even if it was 10 years ago!) - but that IS literally what's happened with EVERY codex. CSM players love to compare Blood Angels but again Blood Angels gained some silly units - but lost universal Furious Charge, and universal Rage, and universal ability to Assault-out-of-overcharged-rhinos etc... all "fluffy" things that one could argue "define the chapter". In the interest of balance; the codex have all changed.
Your realy comparing an BA using two rules two chaos players having ton of models illegal? From what I understand when the 4ed chaos codex came all NM were left with illegal bikers ,dreads , preds , havocks, lords ,AL lost cultists and so on . That is a bit different then losing FC. losing FC or to be more precise getting FC no longer base , but as a rule that an apothecary gives out , then having illegal models which you can't use because of WYSIWYG.
If BA codex removed tacticals , DC honor guard , change to arment of tacticals to something no one else uses and put all of them on bikes .
And if you claim that chaos players cry because 3.5 dex was op and 4th wasn't , then you are wrong . in 4th ed codex everyone got 9 oblits and cheap demon princes x2
Clearly, 'what you understand' is not what is actually the case here. Again this "cultist" idea is a misnomer... it's not actually how it worked. As for the NM noise weapons... yeah those weapon types across different units were lost; that is true and I can understand NM players being disappointed with this ...but that 4th edition CSM codex was flattened for legitimate balance issues; and the so-called "fluff" outrage is not a valid one... the 'cult troops' are made now the same way they were in the broken/unbalanced 3.5Ed Codex.
Your BA comparison is again, totally ridiculous... if 3rd edition "fluff" is all we care about (this is case with CSM players) - then Blood Angels prime method of play was charging crazily into battle out of rhinos - and that DID change; the so-called "defining fluff" of Blood Angels FC, Rage etc... are all lost - in the same way certain units of CSM lost certain abilities (which is what this entire thing is about). I've learned long ago that gaming nerds will never be satisfied but to lament about a codex that was 10 years old, that it sounds like you've probably never even seen, when ALL of the rules of the game have changed so much, is just plainly ridiculous, and tiring.
Your BA comparison is again, totally ridiculous... if 3rd edition "fluff" is all we care about (this is case with CSM players) -
How about no. Much of the Chaos background that came out after Rogue Trader was simply pleb-tier writing. Something you'd see out of World of Warcraft. Nice try though.
then Blood Angels prime method of play was charging crazily into battle out of rhinos - and that DID change; the so-called "defining fluff" of Blood Angels FC, Rage etc... are all lost - in the same way certain units of CSM lost certain abilities (which is what this entire thing is about). I've learned long ago that gaming nerds will never be satisfied but to lament about a codex that was 10 years old, that it sounds like you've probably never even seen, when ALL of the rules of the game have changed so much, is just plainly ridiculous, and tiring.
The difference is that EVERYONE lost the ability to charge out of Rhinos.
Also Blood Angels still gain Furious Charge from either their special rules or a Priest.
Nobody should suffer Codex: nurglite black legion alone.
Fair enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/28 21:47:20
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Night Lords (40k): 3500pts
Klan Zaw Klan: 4000pts
