CSM 6th 'dex ;_;

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**MWHistorian**

Kain wrote:
The thing is that the wussy undivided legions can be easily represented, but the cult legions who had the balls to go with just one god? No cult termies, raptors, dreadnoughts, tanks, havocs, engines, bikers, possesed, or non SC lords/sorcerers for you!

Yes. This.
Instead of being able to accurately and effectively make World Eaters, Thousand Sons or whoever, we get dino bots and hellturkeys.

Challenge. Make an effective list without Nurgle or Hellturkyes without allies.

I used to play chaos. Shame.

**bogalubov**

MWHistorian wrote:
Kain wrote:
The thing is that the wussy undivided legions can be easily represented, but the cult legions who had the balls to go with just one god? No cult termies, raptors, dreadnoughts, tanks, havocs, engines, bikers, possesed, or non SC lords/sorcerers for you!

Yes. This.
Instead of being able to accurately and effectively make World Eaters, Thousand Sons or whoever, we get dino bots and hellturkeys.

Challenge. Make an effective list without Nurgle or Hellturkyes without allies.

I used to play chaos. Shame.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/541751.page

**MWHistorian**

Chaos vs chaos isn't exactly a good example.

**Zweischneid**

Kain wrote:
The thing is that the wussy undivided legions can be easily represented, but the cult legions who had the balls to go with just one god? No cult termies, raptors, dreadnoughts, tanks, havocs, engines, bikers, possesed, or non SC lords/sorcerers for you!

The thing is that if you want to play an army that is painted in only a single main-colour, with everyone fantatically shouting "For the ~~Emperor~~ Blood God" as they charge forward, you should probably play a Loyalist Dex.

Chaos is about diversity, internal bickering and desperate, fragile alliances of unlikely splinter-forces to provide a counter-point to the uniform loyalist armies. Mono-God-Chaos-Armies in 40K are thematically redundant.

**Kain**

Zweischneid wrote:
Kain wrote:
The thing is that the wussy undivided legions can be easily represented, but the cult legions who had the balls to go with just one god? No cult termies, raptors, dreadnoughts, tanks, havocs, engines, bikers, possesed, or non SC lords/sorcerers for you!

The thing is that if you want to play an army that is painted in only a single main-colour, with everyone fantatically shouting "For the ~~Emperor~~ Blood God" as they charge forward, you should probably play a Loyalist Dex.

Chaos is about diversity, internal bickering and desperate, fragile alliances of unlikely splinter-forces to provide a counter-point to the uniform loyalist armies. Mono-God-Chaos-Armies in 40K are thematically redundant.

Angron defied that, twice no less, the second time around being one of the single most important events for the Steel Legion, Space Wolves, and Grey knights. As did Magnus and Mortarion.

Fulgrim's a lazy sod though.

**bogalubov**

MWHistorian wrote:
Chaos vs chaos isn't exactly a good example.

It's a perfect example. Gives you two ways to play. Especialy since on is mostly necrons.

**Zweischneid**

Kain wrote:

Angron defied that, twice no less, the second time around being one of the single most important events for the Steel Legion, Space Wolves, and Grey knights. As did Magnus and Mortarion.

Fulgrim's a lazy sod though.

I am sure we don't need a unique Codex-option for something that happened only two or three (or even four times) in the 40K history. If you wanna re-created those events, just do it by deviating from the Codex.

During the Siege of Maccragge, a major battle was fought entirely by the Ultramarines 1st Company in Terminator armour. Does that mean we need to have options for all-Terminator Ultramarines? No, because that is not what the UM Codex should represent thematically.

Same for Chaos.

It's supposed to be, in the spectrum of Codex books available, give you the counter-point to the uniform, uni-coloured loyalist armies. The individual sub-factions that make a Chaos army (e.g. the remnant Legions, Cults, etc..) all have individual histories, so that you know the parts that will make the whole. But that does not negate that, by drawing on the rich history of each sub-faction, you're meant to assemble them into a non-mono-god army.

Indeed, not unlike the all-1st-company stand by the Ultramarine's 1st company-story will give you background and texture to the 5 or 10 Terminators you may field in the context of a more varied Ultramarines army.

**Kain**

The thing is that even during the Black Crusades the cult legions do their own thing, Abaddon knows he can't really control them and they shunt off to rampage.

Add to that the ease of making mono-Word bearers, Black Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion lists and you'll see my problem.

The Alpha Legion and Night Lords are no more organized and unified than any of the Cult legions. When not undergoing a Crusade the Black Legion is also fractured and prone to hitting itself once out of Abaddon's direct line of sight, and yet I can easily make lists for these three.

Why should two legions that do so little of note be easier to represent than the four cult legions whose Primarchs actually bother to get off their asses once a century while the undivided primarchs are all either dead or lazy.

The Word Bearers and Iron Warriors also maintain a high degree of unity and cohesiveness, I can make lists for them easily.

**Zweischneid**

Probably because you shouldn't really do mono-Night Lord, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors etc.. list if you wanna play fluffy 40K (as opposed to 30K, which Forge World provides).

Throw some Noise Marines in with your Night Lords, etc.. and start playing Chaos Space Marines!

**MWHistorian**

bogalubov wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
Chaos vs chaos isn't exactly a good example.

It's a perfect example. Gives you two ways to play. Especialy since on is mostly necrons.

1Ksons and zerkers are not competitive and they're supposed to be top tier. They're not. They're lame. Too expensive...way too expensive for what they do. Also, you can't really make an accurate 1Ksons army. And the suggestion of using another codex to represent a chaos army is ridiculous and shows the inadequacies of the codex.
I'm not asking for OP though many of you fixate that that's what we're asking. We'd just want our most famous units to be good enough so you wouldn't be classified as "mentally disabled" for taking them.
Then there's the matter of fluff. There's no fluffy units. That might not matter to some. Some just play for the game and say "Eh, whatever. The codex works." But it doesn't represent the army many of us have played and wish to continue to play. That's another problem.
Many units just suck. Mutilators are lame. They're a close combat unit that can't really assault anything. Warp Talons exchanged grenades for a power that is super expensive and doesn't really do anything. Chosen, too expensive for what they are. Anyone actually use them? Etc etc. What I'm saying is that there are too many units that no one's going to take except to "try to make them work." and "Maybe I can fit them in for this one specific battle."
Yes, you can make other lists and some of them are good and fun, but it's hard to use the Codex and get the armies we want without fudging and making up a bunch of stuff. "I can use GK for 1Ksons!" Utterly defeats the purpose of having a Chaos Codex.
And 2 pages of rules per supplement isn't enough to fix all the glaring problems.

The Warpsmith is the best addition though. That guy is fluffy, looks good and is interesting to play. (though hard to make competitive.)

**Kain**

Zweischneid wrote:
Probably because you shouldn't really do mono-Night Lord, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors etc.. list if you wanna play fluffy 40K (as opposed to 30K, which Forge World provides).

Throw some Noise Marines in with your Night Lords, etc.. and start playing Chaos Space Marines!

The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers think little of less unified legions with differing outlooks. The Word Bearers have even openly insulted Abaddon and the Black Legion.

And I just said the undivided legions are all easy to make lists for and cover all bases, the cult legions? Not so much.

**Experiment 626**

MWHistorian wrote:
Kain wrote:
The thing is that the wussy undivided legions can be easily represented, but the cult legions who had the balls to go with just one god? No cult termies, raptors, dreadnoughts, tanks, havocs, engines, bikers, possesed, or non SC lords/sorcerers for you!

Yes. This.
Instead of being able to accurately and effectively make World Eaters, Thousand Sons or whoever, we get dino bots and hellturkeys.

Challenge. Make an effective list without Nurgle or Hellturkyes without allies.

I used to play chaos. Shame.

Funny you should argue that the current codex is a rotting turd because you can't get "cult termies, raptors, bikers, etc..." because guess what? You couldn't get ALL that in the 3.5 codex either!

Comically enough, the Legions have all gained massively in options, but because they don't have a bunch of special snowflake rules, apparently GW sucks and hates all of us poor, deprived CSM players...

Back under the 3.5 codex the Legions restrictions were;
- Deathguard had 0 raptors and could not take ANY heavy weapons at all. Only 0-2 Troops units could take Rhinos - any more and those unit/s moved to the Fast Attack slot.
- Thousand Sons had no access to Bikers, Raptors or Havocs! (and Rubric Termies were disgustingly expensive and could not buy any upgrades to boot, while Possessed & Chosen were so expensive they were unplayable!)
- World Eaters couldn't take Raptors or Havocs.
- Emp's Children couldn't take Raptors.

Oh, and let's not forget that none of the 4 mono-God Legions had access to Oblits either, since at the time Oblits couldn't buy a mark of chaos!
So please, stop crying about how the Legions have actually gained options!

**Kain**

I disliked the 3.5 codex myself. None of the Chaos books have represented the cults in a satisfactory way for me. It's always undivided this, undivided that, bleh.

Which is why by now me and those who play with me just broke the CSM book into ten homebrewed minidexes, one for each legion and one for the corsairs.

The Vanilla CSM book is now Codex: Black Legion with some tweaks (mainly SC related.)

**Zweischneid**

Kain wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
Probably because you shouldn't really do mono-Night Lord, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors etc.. list if you wanna play fluffy 40K (as opposed to 30K, which Forge World provides).

Throw some Noise Marines in with your Night Lords, etc.. and start playing Chaos Space Marines!

The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers think little of less unified legions with differing outlooks. The Word Bearers have even openly insulted Abaddon and the Black Legion.

And I just said the undivided legions are all easy to make lists for and cover all bases, the cult legions? Not so much.

Word Bearers as a legion don't exist. They split into 1000 Chapters, much like the Loyalists did. The largest known remaining Word Bearer ship serves Huron as his flag-ship. Significant parts of what used to be Word Bearers either turned all-out-khorne (the Sanctified) or joined with Night Lords left-overs (Warriors of Aggannor)

And everyone has insulted everyone among Chaos Space Marines. That's the point. Those aren't alliances of convenience. A Chaos Force is a motley crew of various splinter groups united only by the force of a dominant lord of daemon prince... for as long as he can keep them pointed at the enemy instead of tearing each others' throats out. That's the point.

**Kain**

Umm no, the Word Bearers are explicitly united under the Dark Council and generally go "aww they think they're people" to other legions at best for not being as united, disciplined, and totally into Chaos undivided as they are. The Legion's cohesiveness and camaraderie is like one of the DEFINING things about the Sons of Lorgar.

Read the Word Bearers books by Reynold. Everyone is under the Council in the legion, no exception. The hosts all answer to the First Chaplain and the Keeper of the Faith.

**Zweischneid**

Kain wrote:

Read the Word Bearers books by Reynold. Everyone is under the Council in the legion, no exception. The hosts all answer to the First Chaplain and the Keeper of the Faith.

Read the Codex. They are not.

Black Library is not canon.

**Kain**

Zweischneid wrote:
Kain wrote:

Read the Word Bearers books by Reynold. Everyone is under the Council in the legion, no exception. The hosts all answer to the First Chaplain and the Keeper of the Faith.

Read the Codex. They are not.

Black Library is not canon.

Everything with the 40k logo is equally canon, even if it has Gazghkull punching Macragge into Holy Terra in the Gurren Lagann mecha to fight a supersized Imotekh across the galaxy.

**Zweischneid**

Kain wrote:

Everything with the 40k logo is equally canon, even if it has Gazghkull punching Macragge into Holy Terra in the Gurren Lagann mecha to fight a supersized Imotekh across the galaxy.

Perhaps. But than, at the very least, there are two contradicting versions within that canon. The Studio-version and the BL-version.

Can't blame the Codex, made by the Studio, for sticking to the Studio-version, and not the BL-version (of one author).

Especially as said author had to "only" fill a few hundred pages about World Bearers. The studio-guys have to consider all Codexes and armies in the context of all other armies. And in that context... "uniform, disciplined Space Marines that answer to a higher authority" are well represented by the various Loyalist Dexes (even if you paint them with a burning book on the shoulder).

The "mix-of-many-different-things", however, is something that is unique to the CSM Codex. That's what makes it special. That's what makes it unique. That's the precious core of the CSM Codex that needs to be defended at all costs.

**Kain**

Zweischneid wrote:
Kain wrote:

Everything with the 40k logo is equally canon, even if it has Gazghkull punching Macragge into Holy Terra in the Gurren Lagann mecha to fight a supersized Imotekh across the galaxy.

Perhaps. But than, at the very least, there are two contradicting versions within that canon. The Studio-version and the BL-version.

Can't blame the Codex, made by the Studio, for sticking to the Studio-version, and not the BL-version (of one author).

Especially as said author had to "only" fill a few hundred pages about World Bearers. The studio-guys have to consider all Codexes and armies in the context of all other armies. And in that context... "uniform, disciplined Space Marines" are well represented by the various Loyalist Dexes (even if you paint them with a burning book on the shoulder).

The "mix-of-many-different-things", however, is something that is unique to the CSM Codex. That's what makes it special. That's what makes it unique. That's the precious core of the CSM Codex that needs to be defended at all costs.

The word bearers have always been the evil twin of the ultramarines, like everything about Guillaman's boys being twisted to evil. This includes essentially being the ideal for their faction.

The Ultramarines for better or for worse are listened to, the Word Bearers get shut out like jehovah's witneses by other Legions. Erebus and Kor Phaeron along with the Apostles of the council are the lords of the legion in Lorgar's stead, ruling over daemon worlds like a dark mirror of Ultramar.

But if they tried that with say, the world eaters, Angron would shove Kor's head up Erebus' evil ass and bat them back to Sicarius.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Zweischneid wrote:
Probably because you shouldn't really do mono-Night Lord, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors etc.. list if you wanna play fluffy 40K (as opposed to 30K, which Forge World provides).

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/iron-warriors-omnibus.html
http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/the-word-bearers-omnibus.htm

Zweischneid wrote:
Throw some Noise Marines in with your Night Lords, etc.. and start playing Chaos Space Marines!

Some people don't find this thematically appealing.

Zweischneid wrote:
The "mix-of-many-different-things", however, is something that is unique to the CSM Codex. That's what makes it special. That's what makes it unique. That's the precious core of the CSM Codex that needs to be defended at all costs.

Ever heard of aspect warriors?

The reason the studio is playing up the "mix-of-many-different-things" angle is to they don't have to be bothered to come up with any differentiating features. Chaos is like a kitchen full of ingredients. But instead of selectively combining the ingredients to create 9 distinct flavorful courses the studio has dumped all the ingredients into 1 big food processor and hit blend. The result is a flavorless inedible mush.

And riddle me this. If the Chaos codex is supposed to represent warbanz with a mix of members from different legions, why does my squad of Night Lords perform identically to my squad of Word Bearers? What self-respecting son of Nostramo would accept a challenge to duel a space marine captain in single combat when he has a whole squad of raptors backing him up?

**ZebioLizard2**

Zweischneid wrote:
Kain wrote:

Everything with the 40k logo is equally canon, even if it has Gazghkull punching Macragge into Holy Terra in the Gurren Lagann mecha to fight a supersized Imotekh across the galaxy.

The "mix-of-many-different-things", however, is something that is unique to the CSM Codex. That's what makes it special. That's what makes it unique. That's the precious core of the CSM Codex that needs to be defended at all costs.

Well I guess you advocate it being Codex: Black Legion then.

Could we get some actual chaos warbands that aren't black legion?

Besides Eldar do that better, Dark Eldar even do that better, then we've got Tau which..are supposed to be (but failed with the failures of kroot), but with multi-species instead of legion...

**MWHistorian**

Experiment 626 wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
Kain wrote:
The thing is that the wussy undivided legions can be easily represented, but the cult legions who had the balls to go with just one god? No cult termies, raptors, dreadnoughts, tanks, havocs, engines, bikers, possesed, or non SC lords/sorcerers for you!

Yes. This.
Instead of being able to accurately and effectively make World Eaters, Thousand Sons or whoever, we get dino bots and hellturkeys.

Challenge. Make an effective list without Nurgle or Hellturkyes without allies.

I used to play chaos. Shame.

Funny you should argue that the current codex is a rotting turd because you can't get "cult termies, raptors, bikers, etc..." because guess what? You couldn't get ALL that in the 3.5 codex either!
Comically enough, the Legions have all gained massively in options, but because they don't have a bunch of special snowflake rules, apparently GW sucks and hates all of us poor, deprived CSM players...

Back under the 3.5 codex the Legions restrictions were;
- Deathguard had 0 raptors and could not take ANY heavy weapons at all. Only 0-2 Troops units could take Rhinos - any more and those unit/s moved to the Fast Attack slot.
- Thousand Sons had no access to Bikers, Raptors or Havocs! (and Rubric Termies were disgustingly expensive and could not buy any upgrades to boot, while Possessed & Chosen were so expensive they were unplayable!)
- World Eaters couldn't take Raptors or Havocs.
- Emp's Children couldn't take Raptors.

Oh, and let's not forget that none of the 4 mono-God Legions had access to Oblits either, since at the time Oblits couldn't buy a mark of chaos!
So please, stop crying about how the Legions have actually gained options!

Now I know you're just saying what you want without reading my posts because I never mentioned 3.5. I'm saying the last codex was dry, boring and disappointing and this new one is the same thing with a stronger emphasis on Nurgle and hellturkies.

**Quintinus**

Zweischneid wrote:
Kain wrote:

Everything with the 40k logo is equally canon, even if it has Gazghkull punching Macragge into Holy Terra in the Gurren Lagann mecha to fight a supersized Imotekh across the galaxy.

Perhaps. But than, at the very least, there are two contradicting versions within that canon. The Studio-version and the BL-version.

Can't blame the Codex, made by the Studio, for sticking to the Studio-version, and not the BL-version (of one author).

Black Library is indeed canon. Hate to burst your bubble. (Just kidding, I love bursting your bubble in particular). You can pretend it's not, but it is.

Especially as said author had to "only" fill a few hundred pages about World Bearers. The studio-guys have to consider all Codexes and armies in the context of all other armies. And in that context... "uniform, disciplined Space Marines that answer to a higher authority" are well represented by the various Loyalist Dexes (even if you paint them with a burning book on the shoulder).

Emphasis mine. Clearly the Chaos Space Marine codex fails to accurately represent one of the Chaos Legions...AGAIN

The "mix-of-many-different-things", however, is something that is unique to the CSM Codex. That's what makes it special. That's what makes it unique. That's the precious core of the CSM Codex that needs to be defended at all costs.

Oh right, you're the guy who thinks it's "fluffy" to have a Slaaneshi sorcerer leading Khorne Berserkers.

**Davor**

Ailaros wrote this in my thread asking about Chaos Space Marines.

Ailaros wrote:
There are two things I really like about them.

The first thing is the fluff. They've done a bad job with the current codex, but if you branch out, there's some wonderful stuff there.

I mean, we're talking about a spiritual realm made of liquid id, that space marines need to completely supress to the point where they become inhuman automatons. Then, the absolute peak of humanity - strongest, best trained, best equipped, gods among men - have the faintest glimmer of what it's like to be human again, and instantly they rebel. They use their incredible power to explore what being human really means. They spend the remainder of their possibly immortal lives discovering the extent of human knowledge or experience, or they are allowed to continue on their path of the warrior, but to do so with the ameteur zeal and personal joy that comes with being able to try things out, and improve your skill in your own creative way. You get to be the best YOU can be, not the best someone else trains you to be, and no further.

... and spending your free time butchering those who castrated your humanity, and engaging on a never-ending quest to liberate the rest of mankind from the most brutal, oppressive regime in its history. They're the only civil liberty revolutionaries in the fluff.

Also, there are some other neat tidbits. Like, read the current fluff for The Scourged (p.15). They were a chapter of space marines working with the inquisition. Their job was to rout out heretics and burn them alive. The chapter master thought is problematic (or at least inefficient) that they might be burning tens of thousands of innocent people, and so, while meditating on a solution, Tzeentch bestowed upon his whole chapter the magical ability to always tell when someone was lying. The next day, they show up for their briefing with the inquisitor, and he says "Hey, great job yesterday, everybody. We killed a lot of guilty heretics, and have made mankind much safer. Keep up the good work, and remember that you're making a big difference".

... and they all immediately understand that 100% of what the inquisitor just said is a complete lie. And they instantly flipped over to chaos. The fluff contains several examples of the idea that all you need to do to make a space marine switch over to chaos is make them just a little bit better at their jobs. It's all you need for them to take matters into their own hands and apply their own genius and creativity, and take their own initiative. And that, really, is the core of what separates a regular marine from a chaos one. That and eventually they get mutations and start praising gods that exist, rather than ones that don't.

The second thing I like about CSM is how they play on the table. They are 100% aggressive, 100% of the time. Going through their current codex and looking for units that exist only to engage in long-range shooting, and you have certain (but not all) builds of havocs, and predators, and... umm... sort of vindicators and sort of autocannon forgefiends and.... that's pretty much it. Everything else is either geared towards close combat or 12" shooting.

They're also a marine army, which means that you get the kind of basic durability required to actually make it to your opponent, and the kind of damage that they can put out is shocking.

For the price of 10 THSS terminators, you can get 20 khrone berzerkers with veterans. On the charge, those berzerkers get 80 attacks that hit on rerollable 3's, and wound on 3's. That's 47 armor saves, which means 8 dead terminators. The few hammers swing back, and the survivors are pulped the next turn. I bet you've never seen THSS terminators disappear in close combat like that, much less to nothing more than a bunch of lunatics with chainsaw swords.

And that's just one example. 10 combi-plasma terminators with power axes and MoK can do hideous damage, and even when you scale down, you've got things like maulerfiends (which I've seen take down land raiders on the charge with a single round of attacking) and khorne lords with axes of blind fury. It's really not that hard for most properly kitted chaos squads to completely pulp something they come across in a single action.

They're an army of going over to your opponent's side of the board, at land raider, jump pack or infiltrator speeds (or just on foot) and beating them up like a bunch of thugs. Stone cold gangster.

If I had to say a third thing about them, I'd also note that there is the most possible modelling opportunities second maybe only to orks. If you run a nurgle army, you get to spend a lot of time with greenstuff if you want, and if you're skilled, make some really stunning work. There's a lot that you can do and still have it look chaosey.

Anyways, I guess the short pitch for CSM is to imagine that you had semi-immortality, and semi-invincibility, and all the power you can use. What would you do with that kind of godlike ability? What would you do after that? What would you do 1,000 years after that after your initial petty goals were accomplished? What would it be like to really be a god? What if you fielded a whole army of them?

That's what CSM is about.

I think this is written so well, that nothing else can be said.

**Quintinus**

Davor wrote:

For the price of 10 THSS terminators, you can get 20 khrone berzerkers with veterans. On the charge, those berzerkers get 80 attacks that hit on rerollable 3's, and wound on 3's. That's 47 armor saves, which means 8 dead terminators. The few hammers swing back, and the survivors are pulped the next turn. I bet you've never seen THSS terminators disappear in close combat like that, much less to nothing more than a bunch of lunatics with chainsaw swords.

That's neat, because guess what else you can get for that many points? A lot of things. An allied Dark Angels Librarian LVL 2 with Divination in a Guard blob with plasma which will ANNIHILATE the Khorne Berserkers. Ailaros has played a total of two games with his list, one of which was against a crap GK list and the other one he got really lucky (which I believe he acknowledged).

Plus he's playing the "magical christmastime" card of 20 berserkers actually making it into combat which never happens. Using "magical christmasland" logic, a LVL2 Librarian is 100, 50 Guard is 200, then let's say 5 plasma guns and a couple power axes for the sergeants. Divination gives rerolls to hit, first rank fire second rank fire is putting out a ton of shots. Those berserkers will die so hard. How about Necron Wraiths? They won't be able to do anything and they will cry home all the way.

And that's just one example. 10 combi-plasma terminators with power axes and MoK can do hideous damage, and even when you scale down, you've got things like maulerfiends (which I've seen take down land raiders on the charge with a single round of attacking) and khorne lords with axes of blind fury. It's really not that hard for most properly kitted chaos squads to completely pulp something they come across in a single action.

Yeah and on the other anecdotal side I've seen combi-plasma terminators with power axes do jack diddly against Dark Eldar and maulerfiends get annihilated for an easy first blood.

They're an army of going over to your opponent's side of the board, at land raider, jump pack or infiltrator speeds (or just on foot) and beating them up like a bunch of thugs. Stone cold gangster.

If I had to say a third thing about them, I'd also note that there is the most possible modelling opportunities second maybe only to orks. If you run a nurgle army, you get to spend a lot of time with greenstuff if you want, and if you're skilled, make some really stunning work. There's a lot that you can do and still have it look chaosey.

Nurgle is by far one of the laziest, most boring conversion armies available and they're only outdone by Orks. A baby could greenstuff a Nurgle marine. Why do you think Forgeworld does so much nurgle? It's the typical "durr green blobs lol"

Anyways, I guess the short pitch for CSM is to imagine that you had semi-immortality, and semi-invincibility, and all the power you can use. What would you do with that kind of godlike ability? What would you do after that? What would you do 1,000 years after that after your initial petty goals were accomplished? What would it be like to really be a god? What if you fielded a whole army of them?

If I had what Ailaros claims to believe is true, I wouldn't run them like morons in 20 man blobs that's for sure.

That's what CSM is about.

Playing them counter to most established background? Okay.

**UnadoptedPuppy**

Guys they made the CSM dex first because it would take the most time to write the most supplements. They will receive the most, ill bet.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I agree with Ailaros, chaos are stone cold gangster.

**Musashi363**

I think it had more to do with CSM being in the DV box.

**MWHistorian**

That huge long rant had nothing to do with what we critics are saying. Yes, we know what Chaos is. Probably better than you do.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Plus he's playing the "magical christmastime" card of 20 berserkers actually making it into combat which never happens. Using "magical christmasland" logic, a LVL2 Librarian is 100, 50 Guard is 200, then let's say 5 plasma guns and a couple power axes for the sergeants. Divination gives rerolls to hit, first rank fire second rank fire is putting out a ton of shots. Those berserkers will die so hard. How about Necron Wraiths? They won't be able to do anything and they will cry home all the way.

20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.

50 Guard is 250 points, 5 Plasma Guns is another 75 and Power Axes go for 10 points a pop. Without the Librarian you're at 375 points. With the Librarian, you're going to have to outspend the Berzerkers to get that unit alone, not to mention the other ally tax parts, and you'll still not kill enough Berzerkers with that blob to stop them from getting into CC with you. You don't take an IG blob with a MEQ HQ for its killing power, you take it because it's a lot of bodies that won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

As someone who plays Black Templars, blobs of 20 get into close combat much more often than you'd imagine. It's not that easy to put down 40+ MEQs/SEQs (is there even an expression for T4 4+ infantry? If not, they are now "Scout equivalents") before they reach your lines, and Khorne Berzerkers are all MEQ.

**ZebioLizard2**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Vladsimpaler wrote:

Plus he's playing the "magical christmastime" card of 20 berserkers actually making it into combat which never happens. Using "magical christmasland" logic, a LVL2 Librarian is 100, 50 Guard is 200, then let's say 5 plasma guns and a couple power axes for the sergeants. Divination gives rerolls to hit, first rank fire second rank fire is putting out a ton of shots. Those berserkers will die so hard. How about Necron Wraiths? They won't be able to do anything and they will cry home all the way.

20 Khorne Berzerkers charging a typical Wraith squad will probably wipe them out before they get to swing. It's just 12 MEQ wounds to Berzerkers. Even if the Wraiths get the charge they're going to struggle. 19 Khorne Berzerkers (assuming the Champion is occupied with getting his brains bashed in by the obligatory Destroyer Lord) kill an average of 6.333... Wraiths if the Wraiths get the charge. You don't charge massive squads of melee specialists with Wraiths, just as you don't charge TH/SS Terminators into a blob of Shoota Boyz unless you have to.
.

Calculated hits without charge: (Because let's face it, if the wraiths want to, they'll keep as far away as they want from it, and should they come into a position, will simply charge first to deny rage/FC)

40 attacks (If the entire group is somehow able to get in range, optimal conditions)
Hit chance: 66.67%
Average hits: 26.667
Wound rate: 50%
Wound count on average: 13.333
Wounds saved on a 3++: 8.889
Unsaved Wounds: 4.444

Two models killed, and seeing as most wraiths come in three and have whip coils, that entire group won't be striking first either.

Of course it's also the cost of three canoptek squads (Not counting destroyer lord IC), and fighting necrons who have a vast variety of ways of shooting it down..