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I must have lost half my post in the copy past.
It was supposed to be about Synergy and then just something fun to do.

But yes Synergy is important. One or two Squads can force your opponent to react to you. he has to deal with them or they will chew up Power Armor just from AP3 Fire. And while they are drawing fire this give you the freedom to use your other units to do other jobs.
Ignoring them is something they will only do once.
Now I have not gone though and worked out the required synergy like I did with my Space Wolves, but I am sure some one has figured out some.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I must have lost half my post in the copy past.
It was supposed to be about Synergy and then just something fun to do.

But yes Synergy is important. One or two Squads can force your opponent to react to you. he has to deal with them or they will chew up Power Armor just from AP3 Fire. And while they are drawing fire this give you the freedom to use your other units to do other jobs.
Ignoring them is something they will only do once.
Now I have not gone though and worked out the required synergy like I did with my Space Wolves, but I am sure some one has figured out some.

The problem is you can easily ignore them, in my case I simply used cover, charged and killed them with my noise marines, I've even killed them at range by using mass of fire. If you field Thousand Sons then I know I'll have an easy game, because no matter what "synergy" you come up with my own Slaanesh Sorcerer will buff my troops and debuff yours in a far better synergy without needing much complicated issues.

I also notice you ignore the posts from people who have actually used thousand sons on a major scale.

There was a time when they were extremely good. That is during 6 th edition before they got there new codex.
They marines were the same as 5th (and now actually except votlw) but sap got better.
The sorcerer however was physchic mastery level 2 and could roll on telepathy. I remember maxing out with sqauds of k sons in sets of 5 just to field 6 mastery level 2 psykers

Ignore, no.
mis them in the wave of Post Yes.
This thing is moving quicker than the Codex: Smace Marine thread sometines that I am alos trying to follow.

Davor wrote:
For all the people who Mathhammer all the time, WTF is wrong with you people? I mean why are you not making money off this by gambling? If your Mathhammer skills are soooo good, why not go to the casino, race track and put your Mathhammer skills to good use?

Because statistics say that you are guaranteed to lose in every gambling game that a casino offers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and back to the topic, I feel like the OP is biased already towards thousand sons and not really realizing the cons of TS.

If you say Mathhammer is faulty in any way, by default you're not talking about if the unit is better or not. You're basically stating an "opinion" that you think TS is good.

 Makutsu wrote:
Oh, and back to the topic, I feel like the OP is biased already towards thousand sons and not really realizing the cons of TS.

If you say Mathhammer is faulty in any way, by default you're not talking about if the unit is better or not. You're basically stating an "opinion" that you think TS is good.

I know Plague Marines are Better and have stated that a few times.

Yes I think Thousand Suns are a good unit if you use them right, just like any other unit can be good. They have their uses, almost all of them in a Power Armored Marine Rich Environment.
Just because a unit is not the Best does not it is no good, that what I have been trying to say.

No they are bad because of the huge tax cost they have.
The Tzeentch Sorceror and the Aspiring Champion are both useless. That's a couple of hundred of points sunk into things that don't output enough for their point cost.
Paying huge taxes are bad.

If you don't take the Sorceror then your TSs are Elites, not being able to take objectives means that they are completely just pure bad.

If Plague Marines couldn't take objectives their popularity would definitely go down.

On top of that, as people said SnP + their normal combat ability makes them really bad in combat. Hence bad.
No overwatch and sweeping is bad.

A 4++ is bad too as it's not that survivable either, for the amount of points vs the survivability makes them bad.

When you can take Plague Marines or a Heldrake instead makes them bad.
Is playing at a handicap a good thing? No.
Heldrake fills the exact same role but much better and costs about the same but does a lot more damage and is way more survivable makes TS bad.

A subpar choice is bad.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I just threw a cheap unit to assault them and they were tied up useless the entire game.

Your opponent had nothing whatsoever that could bail their 1ksons out of close combat?

That's a problem with your opponent, not with 1ksons. It would be like blaming berzerkers for not being able to catch stuff in close combat when they were in transports. If the entire rest of the army can't open a transport or two, then the person is playing a khorne army wrong, rather than that berzerkers are terrible because they fail to excel in something which they were, on purpose, designed not to excel in.

And, has been mentioned several times already, plague marines are only more durable when they're hiding in cover. They're not when they're out in the open, at least, against weapons that are good against marines. The fact that PM NEED to hide in cover while 1ksons don't is, as mentioned, one of the primary benefits of 1ksons. They not only bring their cover save wherever they go (including not in actual cover), but it's also a cover save that they get to use against helldrakes and the like.

Then what do I use if I don’t want to play Plague Marines or use Heldrakes?

 Anpu42 wrote:
Then what do I use if I don’t want to play Plague Marines or use Heldrakes?

No one says you can't play them, I use a lot of random things for fun sakes and try out silly combos.
They just won't end up on my tournament list.

Cultists, bikers, chaos spawn, havocs, termicide, Axe of Blind Fury Juggerlord, Chaos Undivided Sorcerers, Daemon Prince (not best thing but can be rather nasty even then), Las Predator, Obliterators. Heck whilst Mutilators aren't the best thing ever buy one and use it as disruption dsing it to destract the enemy for a turn and hopefully even get in cc if lucky.

Along with that, nobody is trying to stop you from playing Thousand Sons. People call Possessed, Helbrutes, Raptors, Khornate Berzerkers, Thousand Sons, etc bad... but then you will have people like Ailerous that have won 3 games in a row with a heavily Khornate army. Just because the internet recommends (at least partially due to meta and mathammer) Plague Marines doesn't mean you need to take them. One can defy mathammer through better comprehension and luck besting enemies with the "best list" just as one can use the "best list" and although a good gamer suffer from rolling far too many ones statistically.

Then there is meta, how much terrain is on the battlefield, special rules of game, how competitive, what are the players at the gw, etc. I'll elaborate my opinion of TS but I had to say that nobody came in here declairing that you can only play with Plague Marines or Heldrakes.

Anyways.... Thousand Sons... Oh how I have always liked thee. Fluff wise, god wise... they are my favourite Traitor Legion and I rather enjoy Ahriman. In terms of their playability.... I will respond with my own experiences. They aren't that good. They cost model per model only 1 less than Plague Marines whilst also having to pay an approximately 58 point tax to get a sergeant. This is not cheap in the slightest and I doubt it is really worth almost the price of a normal Sorcerer. Anyways, time to continue analyzing the Thousand Sons.

Pros:
-4++ Invuln meaning less worry of the few S10 shots, you don't have to worry about Tau/IG/SM/etc stripping away a cover save and then blasting you with a S10 AP3 Ordinance! It also means you can march forth even if the enemy is plasma heavy knowing you have a mobile cover save that very few weapons can rip off in the game.
-AP3 bolters! Want to make Tactical Marines afraid and Sternguards a tad bit nervous? Welcome to the AP3 zone where we will shoot you dead!
-Sergeant with Force Weapon meaning on a lucky day (good rolls against slow I like Tervigons in particular) you can instant kill a MC and even enemy warlords granted it tends to be unlikely.
-Fearless! No worries of your guys running off the table

Cons:
-Killed just as easily by standard guns as any other marine
-they are expensive
-Stuck to only using rhinos as transports which they will die to just as often as a standard marine
-They are Slow and Purposeful meaning no running and no Overwatch
-Sergeant costs 58 points. This cannot be mentioned enough. He costs a bloody load and whilst he does have a 4++ save, there are only so many saves he can pass with cheering and that ignores the likelyhood that the TS have already lost some models and are possibly fighting some other enemies
-Have to get a Tzeentch Sorcerer to actually make them troops meaning a large tax to bring them into the game as troops (I've heard of few that use them for anything else) and forced to roll a psyker ability on a table not really worth it and the +1 invuln only worth it if you pay extra for a 5++ or 4++ that raises to a 4++ or 3++.
-The Tzeentch Psyker table simply isn't that good. The primaris is one of the worst in the game, the boon of mutation is horrid, the last spell cannot be used by your sergeant, and the doombolt is the only good one.

 Ailaros wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I just threw a cheap unit to assault them and they were tied up useless the entire game.

Your opponent had nothing whatsoever that could bail their 1ksons out of close combat?

That's a problem with your opponent, not with 1ksons. It would be like blaming berzerkers for not being able to catch stuff in close combat when they were in transports. If the entire rest of the army can't open a transport or two, then the person is playing a khorne army wrong, rather than that berzerkers are terrible because they fail to excel in something which they were, on purpose, designed not to excel in.

And herein lies the problem: You've spent so many points on the 1ksons that you don't have enough points to deal with anything else. And that never ends well. Also you seem to be implying that Berserkers were well designed.

And, has been mentioned several times already, plague marines are only more durable when they're hiding in cover. They're not when they're out in the open, at least, against weapons that are good against marines. The fact that PM NEED to hide in cover while 1ksons don't is, as mentioned, one of the primary benefits of 1ksons. They not only bring their cover save wherever they go (including not in actual cover), but it's also a cover save that they get to use against helldrakes and the like.

Where are you getting this from? I did the math, 1Ksons and Plague Marines are basically even when it comes to the baleflamer. Plagues are T5 so are only wounded on a 3+, and they get their FNP. 1KSons are wounded on a 2+ but get their 4+ invul.

Against basic weapons of each race, Plague Marines will almost always come out ahead. I haven't calculated the effects of bladestorm weapons against them. They only have a problem against weapons that cause instant death, and that's it.

 StarTrotter wrote:
.

Along with that, nobody is trying to stop you from playing Thousand Sons. People call Possessed, Helbrutes, Raptors, Khornate Berzerkers, Thousand Sons, etc bad... but then you will have people like Ailerous that have won 3 games in a row with a heavily Khornate army.

Wow, he got lucky. woooooo
Also what is "statistical outlier" for 800, Alex.

 Ailaros wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I just threw a cheap unit to assault them and they were tied up useless the entire game.

Your opponent had nothing whatsoever that could bail their 1ksons out of close combat?

That's a problem with your opponent, not with 1ksons. It would be like blaming berzerkers for not being able to catch stuff in close combat when they were in transports. If the entire rest of the army can't open a transport or two, then the person is playing a khorne army wrong, rather than that berzerkers are terrible because they fail to excel in something which they were, on purpose, designed not to excel in.

And, has been mentioned several times already, plague marines are only more durable when they're hiding in cover. They're not when they're out in the open, at least, against weapons that are good against marines. The fact that PM NEED to hide in cover while 1ksons don't is, as mentioned, one of the primary benefits of 1ksons. They not only bring their cover save wherever they go (including not in actual cover), but it's also a cover save that they get to use against helldrakes and the like.

I had other, better units as a result dealing with the rest of their army. It's not like I had just that unit vs Thousand Sons + Additional synergy.

And as a result, I had more because of my cheaper costs with my noise marine army.

 Makutsu wrote:
No one says you can't play them, I use a lot of random things for fun sakes and try out silly combos.

I would probably try to come up with a nice list, but when I field 2 Bare Bones 10 man Squads, maybe with the Icon of Flame in my list, what should I take with them. All I get is “DON’T Take Thousand Suns!” and then I spend the next 4 pages saying this is what I want to play.

So yes people are telling me what to play.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
No one says you can't play them, I use a lot of random things for fun sakes and try out silly combos.

I would probably try to come up with a nice list, but when I field 2 Bare Bones 10 man Squads, maybe with the Icon of Flame in my list, what should I take with them. All I get is “DON’T Take Thousand Suns!” and then I spend the next 4 pages saying this is what I want to play.

So yes people are telling me what to play.

The thread title is "I am still trying to figure out why the Thousand Suns are Horrible". You want people to prove that they're horrible; people did.

In response you get all emotional and offended.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I just threw a cheap unit to assault them and they were tied up useless the entire game.

Your opponent had nothing whatsoever that could bail their 1ksons out of close combat?

That's a problem with your opponent, not with 1ksons. It would be like blaming berzerkers for not being able to catch stuff in close combat when they were in transports. If the entire rest of the army can't open a transport or two, then the person is playing a khorne army wrong, rather than that berzerkers are terrible because they fail to excel in something which they were, on purpose, designed not to excel in.

And herein lies the problem: You've spent so many points on the 1ksons that you don't have enough points to deal with anything else. And that never ends well. Also you seem to be implying that Berserkers were well designed.

And, has been mentioned several times already, plague marines are only more durable when they're hiding in cover. They're not when they're out in the open, at least, against weapons that are good against marines. The fact that PM NEED to hide in cover while 1ksons don't is, as mentioned, one of the primary benefits of 1ksons. They not only bring their cover save wherever they go (including not in actual cover), but it's also a cover save that they get to use against helldrakes and the like.

Where are you getting this from? I did the math, 1Ksons and Plague Marines are basically even when it comes to the baleflamer. Plagues are T5 so are only wounded on a 3+, and they get their FNP. 1KSons are wounded on a 2+ but get their 4+ invul.

Against basic weapons of each race, Plague Marines will almost always come out ahead. I haven't calculated the effects of bladestorm weapons against them. They only have a problem against weapons that cause instant death, and that's it.

 StarTrotter wrote:
.

Along with that, nobody is trying to stop you from playing Thousand Sons. People call Possessed, Helbrutes, Raptors, Khornate Berzerkers, Thousand Sons, etc bad... but then you will have people like Ailerous that have won 3 games in a row with a heavily Khornate army.

Wow, he got lucky. woooooo
Also what is "statistical outlier" for 800, Alex.

Pardon me sir I didn't mean it that way. I should have rephrased it. All I meant was that mathammer is correct but everyone can play models they like and occasional outliers will occur where players, even with the sub-par units, manage to win due to multiple scenarios (from how tables are set up, to any special rules, to the level of competitiveness of the local players, what armies are heavy and how they tend to play). I just meant to say play Thousand Sons if you wish to play TS

 StarTrotter wrote:

Pardon me sir I didn't mean it that way. I should have rephrased it. All I meant was that mathammer is correct but everyone can play models they like and occasional outliers will occur where players when even with the sub-par units manage to wwin due to multiple scenarios (froma how tables are set up, to any special rules, to the level of competitiveness of the local players, what armies are heavy and how they tend to play). I just meant to say play Thousand Sons if you wish to play TS

This is completely fair and I don't believe that any reasonable person will have problems with what you said. Very eloquently put too! I would say that wraps up this thread.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
No one says you can't play them, I use a lot of random things for fun sakes and try out silly combos.

I would probably try to come up with a nice list, but when I field 2 Bare Bones 10 man Squads, maybe with the Icon of Flame in my list, what should I take with them. All I get is “DON’T Take Thousand Suns!” and then I spend the next 4 pages saying this is what I want to play.

So yes people are telling me what to play.

Except nobody is. People say that they are bad because of _____ and _____. You ended your first post with "I want to know why everyone thinks there bad." and so people answered why they are considered bad (and I frankly agree with them). But to claim we are telling you not to play with the model is nonsense.

 Anpu42 wrote:

I amnot talking about "Actedotes", I am talking about real world Experiance.

do you...do you know what an anecdote is? Cause that's pretty much exactly it...a story that a person tells that the storyteller at least claims happened.

Anyway after reading three pages of this, I'm sort of convinced that you're just trolling at this point because everybody else has so thoroughly logic-thrashed you. I've not played against thousand sons since at least 5th edition, maybe even 4th...I can't remember for sure. That said...if we have a forum of thousands of users and the predominant belief among them, using laws of averages, is that a certain unit is subpar and thus not worth taking for competitive play, there's probably a lot of validity to it. If you want to be as competitive as possible, pick plague marines over TS...period, end of story. Not that me chiming in and saying it is really going to change your opinion or cause you to stop arguing this.

Yes I think I done with this for a while, I am running into my normal problems.
I was hoping that I would get an enjoyable discussion on an underused unit that was more two sided.
I was also hoping to get some Tactical Discussions.

I will say this which should be taken as a complement when it came to the Mathhammer. Personally I Loath Mathhammer. I can not tell you how many threads I have abandon threads because of it. I do trust Mathhammer to a point. It is a good judge to tell you how a unit Should perform. I do though find I like to test it after I calculate it and I am usually pleasantly surprised with the results. What I Loath about Mathhammer is usually have one or two who just fill a half dozen pages with it.
None of you really did this, there was a little shown and a few of us bickered back and forth about it. I think this is when I got to emotionally involved and one you pointed it out, thank you Vladsimpaler.

i will probably bring this up again in a few months when I have had a chance to test some things. This time it should be more of a I have found and way to use them.

Anpu42, you do raise some good points about math hammer not always being applicable in every situation.

The difference between statistics and luck is statistics apply to a 'population' (and by this I mean the mathematical definition, not a huge group of people) while luck applies to a person doing rolls (because unless you play 3-4 times a week for 10 years, you don't perform enough die rolls to be considered a population).

Personally, I always roll way above par for to hit rolls, while my to wound rolls tend to be so below average it's absurd. My most recent game saw 17 hits with 5 frag launchers (4/5 direct hits with one blast moving an inch. This is typical) but I only caused 4 wounds against scouts.
I'm also (in)famous for being unable to make a single tough or FnP roll to save my life (my average over 10 games is 1/24 rolls successful. Yes, I keep track).
Meanwhile, my friend can not roll to hit or wound to save his life, but frequently makes armor saves above and beyond the statistical norm. I'm talking 1/18 armor saves at 3+ failed. I can pour 50 salvo bolsters into him and only kill 3-4 guys, or fire a single blast master and do the same. This does come up when I plan how to defeat him and in my list building.

The issue with taking this to the Internet is that there are enough people here that statistics rather than luck applies. We have tens, possibly hundreds of posters and lurkers that equate to a population, so luck does need to be thrown out the window here.
That said, I have yet to see a single standard deviation ever calculated in my 20 years of gaming, but this often benefits hordes more than elite armies, since they get more dice (and thus a higher N in the equation). It's why orks, guard, and nids tend to have more skewed results, and thus more....diverse opinions about their table top performance.

TL : DR version, most of this math doesn't apply to you on a personal level and isn't calculated that well. Perfectly fine in ignoring it

The post above sheds a lot of light onto the world of luck and mathammer that people are so fond of defending. I have seen 1 Thousand Sons fielded quite a few times and each time they have performed admirably on the battlefield. Does this mean that they don't suck? Does this mean that they are better than other units that are in the dex?

Not really, all it means is that mathematically they are inferior to other options but tactically on the table they do quite well when fielded in my area.

The unit is fine and Anpu42 should still use them if he so chooses to.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Said Stuff

Your experiances and mine are compleatly difrent.
My Plage Marines have already Died in Droves to Walls of Plasma SPAM to my Marines before my Terminators even get close. The only thing that dies quicker is Bearzerkers.
I have had my Thousand Sons take concentrated fire from Multi-Meltas and Las-Cannons for 3 Truns befor Droping.

But there's very little difference between the 5+FNP that plague marines get and the 4+INV that thousand sons get. And as people have pointed out, once plague marines get cover, which they should be able to much of the time, they are even tougher against plasma and such stuff. Plague marines (and normal chaos marines) are tougher to assault with more and better attacks, defensive grenades and overwatch. The only thing they don't have is AP3 bolters. But against some armies that won't matter, and against all armies the PMs have the option to buy versatile and powerful special weapons!

Essentially you're overvaluing the AP3 guns and 4+INV save. Even without the drawbacks of an overpriced champion and S&P, thousand sons would not be worth so much over regular chaos marines, or as much as plague marines.

Possibly the biggest drawbacks of the TS are mass tanks, assaults, and 2+ saves.
They are too expensive to ignore these weaknesses, and the rest of the army must compensate. Possibly one of the best combos (and fluffy) is 3 units of havocks with MoT on a sky shield landing pad with auto cannons. This gives them a decent fire platform from which they can make enemies come to them, although this doesn't help against the more...problematic armies they face (most noticeably Tau)

Anpu42, what armies have you faced with success and which ones cause problems? My friend is using 1k sons as allies because he loves tzneetch, I'd like to hear some strategies you've developed with them.

 I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:


Essentially you're overvaluing the AP3 guns and 4+INV save. Even without the drawbacks of an overpriced champion and S&P, thousand sons would not be worth so much over regular chaos marines, or as much as plague marines.

This is largely it. While both are nice, they're drastically over-valued. AP3 is always costed at an over-premium, particularly on non-anti-tank weapons. This is not unique to Thousand Sons, pretty much any other unit with AP3 guns such as Vespid, Inquisitorial Henchmen w/Hot Shot Lasguns, and IG stormtroopers suffer this as well, so too did Dark Reapers until recently. Hell, I play a DKoK Assault Brigade and can count on two hands the number of models where the ~50 AP3 infantry guns actually ended up doing something relevant. The 4+ Inv meanwhile is nice, but cover saves and cover save enhancements are very common, and means squad against most attacks.

There was a lengthy discussion on Thousand Sons earlier.

Very few have committed whole heartedly to the army and those who have, have grown to understand its tolerances and play well with them. they hit so damn hard that even a smattering of fire from such a force is pretty mean.

What works is always more important than other considerations. While the math ells you that on an open shooting range with nothing else to consider, you might want X over Y, those battlefields simply dont happen in 40K.

In a battle where reserves weren't a part of the timing of attacks... sure, the math might say do X or Y. But thsoe are also rare.

The myriad of ways you can counter a unit without firing a shot is many and varied.

For me, I see an army of Thousand sons and I do not make the mistake of underestimating them. I'll leave that to others.

Well, I guess one would have to ask, if you're not playing a MEQ army, what threat is a Thousand Sons army? their AP3 is irrelevant, the 4+ inv is nice but they die like normal marines to most other attacks, and there's likely half as many of them. If you are playing a MEQ army, unless your plan is to trade bolter fire as opposed to engaging them with heavy weapons or CC, then even than you don't have much to worry about typically. I've never had a situation where I underestimated them because they've never really met my expectations.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, I guess one would have to ask, if you're not playing a MEQ army, what threat is a Thousand Sons army? their AP3 is irrelevant, the 4+ inv is nice but they die like normal marines to most other attacks, and there's likely half as many of them. If you are playing a MEQ army, unless your plan is to trade bolter fire as opposed to engaging them with heavy weapons or CC, then even than you don't have much to worry about typically. I've never had a situation where I underestimated them because they've never really met my expectations.

engaging them is the answer...and so the Thousand sons bring an answer to being engaged. And if they do, whats YOUR plan?

For example: rhinos and tiny throw away units, which Chaos has plenty of access to can ssimply step in the way and wait. Then what? You have no choice: get in a shooting war with the Tzeentch and get YOURSELF tied up... or.... shoot the unimportant blockade and hope neither of you gets unlucky enough that you're out in the open afterwards. Right?

So a well built Tzeentch army brings its escorts with it and forces you into a shooting contest. Poorly built ones allow you to charge them. Since we would not waste our time HERE talking about poorly built versions, what's your plan when you can't REACH them? Same problem with Broadsides. A flippant "Ill just get them in combat" means WHAT, when kroot have bubblewrapped it? Nothing.

So I cannot say that Tzeentch is the best army ever written, i can say this: you can win tournies with them. winning wil have to be a consolation prize I guess. =)

Ok. So you're up against a "well" made Tzeentch army and get into a shooting war. You out number them because they have super expensive marines and they die to bolters and always get an invul save equivalent to good cover. That... Doesn't sound at all threatening. And needing a unit to "guard" them when their main benefit is having a good invul is kind of silly.

 Jancoran wrote:

engaging them is the answer...and so the Thousand sons bring an answer to being engaged. And if they do, whats YOUR plan?

Unfortunately, just assuming "they bring an answer" doesn't work. I wish they would work, I'd love to see more Tsons armies out there, but there's a reason we don't

How do they bring an answer when they cost more than half again as much as their basic contemporaries that aren't much easier to kill, and lack the staying and CC power (not to mention special weapons loadout) of their similarly costed brethren? That's the issue, most of the time, they lack the points to bring sufficient answers, or simply lack certain capabilities, or both.

For example: rhinos and tiny throw away units, which Chaos has plenty of access to can ssimply step in the way and wait.

Unless they're blocking LoS, that means nothing in regards to shooting at the TSons. I'm mainly coming at this from an IG and CSM perspective, a Rhino can only shield from so much and only takes so much fire to remove, especially in 6E. They need the Rhino to get where they need to be, if that Rhino dies before then, then that's out of the picture, and from another CSM perspective a Rhino can be manuevered around. If we're talking about ~400pts of Tsons+Cultists

and Then what? You have no choice: get in a shooting war with the Tzeentch

Here's the situation, unless playing a MEQ army and they're able to get the first volley off en-masse against a bunch of my units in the open, I've won at this point.

Yeah, if those TSons want to engage my IG gunline in a shooting war, sweet, easy win.

If they want to trade bolter fire with another MEQ army, well, again as noted, unless they're simultaneously engaging a bunch of my own units in the open, I'm probably fine with this If cover is involved then their advantage is negated and while I'll lose slightly more i have far more shots being returned plus special weapons and I can win through attrition if nothing else. If I can engage the Tsons first, then I can likely put enough hurt on them so that i survive the return volley and engage them in CC and defeat them there, as if the Tsons are at optimal range then they're also within easy assault range, and once engaged in CC they're likely done for.

If they're having to engage something like an Ork Horde, they don't have the firepower to beat back a Mob and, again, are done for.

Even if they're bubble-wrapped with a unit of cultists, cultists are not impossible to move/cut through and must keep up with the TSons (which they can't if the Tsons are in a rhino), and at that point we're talking about ~1100-1300pts between 3 units of Tsons in rhinos and 3 units of cultists that do nothing but provide bubble-wrap leaving you with relatively little for HQ, heavy support, flyers, etc, not to mention relatively little for the rest of my army to concentrate firepower upon.

and get YOURSELF tied up... or.... shoot the unimportant blockade and hope neither of you gets unlucky enough that you're out in the open afterwards. Right?

Again, this assumed the blockade is worth much or can't be worked around. Not always doable or reliable by any means. Highly situational and any muck up hurts a lot more

So a well built Tzeentch army brings its escorts with it and forces you into a shooting contest. Poorly built ones allow you to charge them. Since we would not waste our time HERE talking about poorly built versions, what's your plan when you can't REACH them?

If I can't reach them, they're probably not reaching me either, especially not immediately at optimal range. If I'm forced into a shooting contest, unless I'm being engaged simultaneously and in the open (remember, those bubble wrap units give me cover too), I'm winning by attrition if nothing else because those TSons units are basically 300pts a piece plus whatever their bubble-wrap costs.

Same problem with Broadsides. A flippant "Ill just get them in combat" means WHAT, when kroot have bubblewrapped it? Nothing.

Not the same problem at all. Broadsides don't need to be at 12" for optimal firepower employment, and can actually engage stuff beyond 24" period, thus it's infinitely easier to keep them out of combat when they have 36" or 60" guns. Nor are they scoring units that will need to be moving about to take and hold objectives. Not even comparable situations. Tsons *have* to put themselves in imminent assault threat to be at their most effective and to take and hold objectives.

So I cannot say that Tzeentch is the best army ever written, i can say this: you can win tournies with them. winning wil have to be a consolation prize I guess. =)

I will say this, I'm not trying to purposly hate on Tsons, I love their fluff and concept, but from a tabletop standpoint, I haven't faced a Tsons list yet that I didn't have an easier than average time of defeating. Lack of numbers and certain key capabilities routinely kills them. There's a reason they're basically no-shows at most competitive events.