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 Platuan4th wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

I agree completely [I know you do see that phrase much here] other than the Special Weapons, to me it seems Un-Fluffy,

I see this a lot and get confused as to why people think that.

Then I remember not everyone played 2nd ed where Thousand Sons squads had 3 special/heavies.

I will admit I am new to CSM, but Special Weapons, just don't feel quite right to me.

Mathhammer is never wrong, it is always honest about averages.

And you seem to forget the faq buff to the helldrake. It was already heavily used in my meta and kept being used after that.

I too want my upcoming TS army to work, but they dont for said reasons by other people already, i will list mine as i recognised them so far.

They are too expensive with sorcerer and rhino combined.

They lack a reliable anti tank.

Their assault surely doesnt work that good.

Ap3 bolters are nice yes but they need to get really close to make their points in a game. 3 ap3 wound for a 10man t son unit in 24" just doesnt seem that good to me.

Yet even against these reasons my TS army project continues since dust filled automatons are too appealing for me.

 pizzaguardian wrote:
Mathhammer is never wrong, it is always honest about averages.

And you seem to forget the faq buff to the helldrake. It was already heavilynused in my meta and kept being used after that.

I too want my upcoming TS army to work, but they dont for said reasons by other people already, i will list mine as i recognised them so far.

They are too expensive with sorcerer and rhino combined.

They lack a reliable anti tank.

Their assault surely doesnt work that good.

Ap3 bolters are nice yss but they need to get really close to make their points in a game. 2.25 ap3 wound for a 10man t son unit in 24" just doesnt seem that good to me.

Yet even against these reasons my TS army project continues since dust filled automatons are too appealing for me.

So you are saying my experiances are n ot True.
That Mathhammer prove my experiances false.
What I am saying is Mathhammer CAN, not IS wrong. Things that Mathhammer can't tellyou about are intagables, like Tactics, terain and Local Meta.

You are not putting those details in the mathhammer tough. At least i dont. I just make simple calc to see what would happen in a very strict and controlled enviorement. Expectin mathammer to tell you which army is better with every element of the game involved, is like your expecting my calculator to plan a round trip to Mars.

And yes i am saying now your experiences are not true, for me. Your experiences are yours and mine are mine.

they lack reliable anti anything. offensively they have virtually nothing going for them.
the fact they cant overwatch or defend themselves in CC makes them even worse.

power armour is already being ignored by pretty much everyone. AP3 bolters means nothing.

So has anyone actualy used them?
I have and done well with them.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

No, I've played against them several times and tabled them every time. For reference I play Guard, Inquisition, and Daemons.

That explains Everthing.
Your you information, I uasly only Field 2 Squads of Thousand Suns, the rest is a the mix from Dark Vengance. I actualy found my best is the Hellbrute. I usaly get lucky and it spends the game with Fire Shield on it. Most of my Aspiring Champions I loose by them becoming Deamons, so yes I have been Lucky with them.

You're right, it does explain everything. It explains that Thousand Sons suck against some fairly commonly played armies.

Your entire argument FOR Thousand Sons has been a couple of anecdotes and feeling-based arguments. Yes math-hammer is all about predicting averages. But you'd be crazy if you thought that Thousand Sons could beat Death Company in combat.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

No, I've played against them several times and tabled them every time. For reference I play Guard, Inquisition, and Daemons.

That explains Everthing.
Your you information, I uasly only Field 2 Squads of Thousand Suns, the rest is a the mix from Dark Vengance. I actualy found my best is the Hellbrute. I usaly get lucky and it spends the game with Fire Shield on it. Most of my Aspiring Champions I loose by them becoming Deamons, so yes I have been Lucky with them.

You're right, it does explain everything. It explains that Thousand Sons suck against some fairly commonly played armies.

Your entire argument FOR Thousand Sons has been a couple of anecdotes and feeling-based arguments. Yes math-hammer is all about predicting averages. But you'd be crazy if you thought that Thousand Sons could beat Death Company in combat.

No this just proves you can win with them.

 Anpu42 wrote:
So has anyone actualy used them?
I have and done well with them.

I am certain that someone, somewhere has used Gretchin to consistently beat squads of Terminators, yet sadly anecdotes are of little value since we know nothing about your usual opponents, if you were unusualy lucky or if you are Alexander the Great incarnate. What we do know is that mathhammer says that 1k sons are overcosted/ underpowered. When in doubt i tend to trust statistics over anecdotes.

KingDeath wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
So has anyone actualy used them?
I have and done well with them.

I am certain that someone, somewhere has used Gretchin to consistently beat squads of Terminators, yet sadly anecdotes are of little value since we know nothing about your usual opponents, if you were unusualy lucky or if you are Alexander the Great incarnate. What we do know is that mathhammer says that 1k sons are overcosted/ underpowered. When in doubt i tend to trust statistics over anecdotes.

I amnot talking about "Actedotes", I am talking about real world Experiance.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Overwatch is a big part of a shooty unit like TSons, which they can't do. Rhino doesn't fix SNP either, not in the slightest.

How often are you getting Assaulted in 6th Edtion: The Shooty Edition [Sarcasm]. Most units shouuld not be getting close to you.

Assaults happen quite often in 6th, especially when a unit like Tsons has to be at 12" for optimal firepower effect. They just don't happen early enough for most armies to be able to rely on them for primary battle potential.

Plague Marines are better objective holders and don't requite a Tzeentch sorceror, just a Nurgle Lord, to be troops.

And this makes Thouseand Suns worse how?

 Anpu42 wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
So has anyone actualy used them?
I have and done well with them.

I am certain that someone, somewhere has used Gretchin to consistently beat squads of Terminators, yet sadly anecdotes are of little value since we know nothing about your usual opponents, if you were unusualy lucky or if you are Alexander the Great incarnate. What we do know is that mathhammer says that 1k sons are overcosted/ underpowered. When in doubt i tend to trust statistics over anecdotes.

I amnot talking about "Actedotes", I am talking about real world Experiance.

We have no way to actualy know and evaluate the circumstances of your successes with 1k sons.
What we do have is some pretty solid math which points to 1k sons being rather bad.

As i said before, there are many factors which could explain why you did well with them, bad competition, dumb luck or even the ability to use what little advantages 1k sons have to your advantage against opponents who are unprepared, are all possible explanations.

 Anpu42 wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
So has anyone actualy used them?
I have and done well with them.

I am certain that someone, somewhere has used Gretchin to consistently beat squads of Terminators, yet sadly anecdotes are of little value since we know nothing about your usual opponents, if you were unusualy lucky or if you are Alexander the Great incarnate. What we do know is that mathhammer says that 1k sons are overcosted/ underpowered. When in doubt i tend to trust statistics over anecdotes.

I amnot talking about "Actedotes", I am talking about real world Experiance.

I play Thousand Sons. I play them a LOT. I play them at GTs, I play them at local tournaments, I play them on friendly game nights. In fact, I do rather well with them. In our local tournament circuit (the Great Escape Games Contest of Champions in Sacramento, if anyone here is from California) where we get an average of 40-50 people every 2 months for a tourney, I consistently place in the top 5, if not winning the entire tournament. I usually run Ahriman and at least 3 units of Thousand Sons, as well as Tzeentch-marked cultists, Tzeentch-marked obliterators, Tzeentch-marked Terminators, etc. I hope you get the idea.

Thousand Sons are TERRIBLE. Painfully bad. You're paying too many points for a marine with a bolter whose AP3 will rarely matter, and when it does your opponent will almost always still get a cover save. The 4+ invul is nice, but that doesn't matter when your unit can't really kill anything of value. Then we get to the psychic powers... The Tzeentch discipline is so bad it hurts. It's gotten to the point where if I don't roll doombolt on my sorcerer, I don't even use him for psychic powers. He's better off firing his bolt pistol than the small blast at most targets, unless I get insanely lucky and somebody just deepstriked (and even then, why aren't I firing my obliterator's plasma cannons at them first?).

There are plenty of good and useful units in the Chaos codex, but Thousand Sons aren't one of them. I'm not going to tell you not to play with them, as obviously I do all right, and still enjoy my army. But you'd be a fool not to understand that you're going in with a handicap.

KingDeath wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
So has anyone actualy used them?
I have and done well with them.

I am certain that someone, somewhere has used Gretchin to consistently beat squads of Terminators, yet sadly anecdotes are of little value since we know nothing about your usual opponents, if you were unusualy lucky or if you are Alexander the Great incarnate. What we do know is that mathhammer says that 1k sons are overcosted/ underpowered. When in doubt i tend to trust statistics over anecdotes.

I amnot talking about "Actedotes", I am talking about real world Experiance.

We have no way to actualy know and evaluate the circumstances of your successes with 1k sons.
What we do have is some pretty solid math which points to 1k sons being rather bad.

As i said before, there are many factors which could explain why you did well with them, bad competition, dumb luck or even the ability to use what little advantages 1k sons have to your advantage against opponents who are unprepared, are all possible explanations.

And there are alot of the things that exploit there weakneses that don't hapen every game.

How about this, I would like to see everyone who thinks Any Unit just sucks get together and and just have a game were some of these "Useless Units" are feilded. Let personal Experiance tell you if Your mathhamm is corect.
Remeber Therory is great, but you need to repeat the result three times to prove it and that is what I go by.

 Anpu42 wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
So has anyone actualy used them?
I have and done well with them.

I am certain that someone, somewhere has used Gretchin to consistently beat squads of Terminators, yet sadly anecdotes are of little value since we know nothing about your usual opponents, if you were unusualy lucky or if you are Alexander the Great incarnate. What we do know is that mathhammer says that 1k sons are overcosted/ underpowered. When in doubt i tend to trust statistics over anecdotes.

I amnot talking about "Actedotes", I am talking about real world Experiance.

We have no way to actualy know and evaluate the circumstances of your successes with 1k sons.
What we do have is some pretty solid math which points to 1k sons being rather bad.

As i said before, there are many factors which could explain why you did well with them, bad competition, dumb luck or even the ability to use what little advantages 1k sons have to your advantage against opponents who are unprepared, are all possible explanations.

And there are alot of the things that exploit there weakneses that don't hapen every game.

How about this, I would like to see everyone who thinks Any Unit just sucks get together and and just have a game were some of these "Useless Units" are feilded. Let personal Experiance tell you if Your mathhamm is corect.
Remeber Therory is great, but you need to repeat the result three times to prove it and that is what I go by.

I'm guessing my post went out after you started yours, but I have extensive personal experience playing Thousand Sons, and I completely disagree with you.

So you want us to have useless units vs useless units battles?

That wont be very informative.

And your aggressive disregard for theory is weird. Your three times method would get you results like
" this TS army is great vs a vanilal sm codex, when it is the purge the alien mission and the deployment is hammer&anvil, while TS goes first and there is night fighting there also is no gate of infinity libby on the other side and he had 2 preds and a devstator squad."

Even by your standarts you have to do this exact match under exact circumstances thee times. Very weird indeed.

 somerandomidiot wrote:
I'm guessing my post went out after you started yours, but I have extensive personal experience playing Thousand Sons, and I completely disagree with you.

Then can you tell me wht us feel that way?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 somerandomidiot wrote:
I'm guessing my post went out after you started yours, but I have extensive personal experience playing Thousand Sons, and I completely disagree with you.

Then can you tell me wht us feel that way?

I'm assuming you mean "tell me why you feel that way", in which case I did exactly that in a post earlier.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 somerandomidiot wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 somerandomidiot wrote:
I'm guessing my post went out after you started yours, but I have extensive personal experience playing Thousand Sons, and I completely disagree with you.

Then can you tell me wht us feel that way?

I'm assuming you mean "tell me why you feel that way", in which case I did exactly that in a post earlier.

What I ment was, what experiances did you have that Proved Mathammer Correct in your case.

I'm not going to reference every game I've ever played with Thousand Sons in 6th edition, as there have been several hundred if not a thousand. My experience is that they have performed as I would expect them to, based on mathhammer. They have a few strengths that the math doesn't represent, such as being difficult for your opponent to predict exactly how much firepower they will have to dedicate to wipe out the unit (which can prove vital when a squad is holding an objective), but on the whole I don't disagree with anything that's been said regarding their weaknesses, and feel they are a sub-par selection.

For all the people who Mathhammer all the time, WTF is wrong with you people? I mean why are you not making money off this by gambling? If your Mathhammer skills are soooo good, why not go to the casino, race track and put your Mathhammer skills to good use?

Well this is the experience that got me to like them. I had two 10 man Squads. One squad was sitting in a set of trees to hold an objective. The marine player hade a Tactical Squad move to about 14” way and fired ineffectively at me from another set of trees. I moved forward and gunned it down with wounds to spare, then a second fed me 4 Plasma Shots [Plasma Gun and Combi-Plasma] along with a Plasma Cannon and the remaining Bolter, I lost three Models. I returned fire along with the Helbrute and killed all but 2 models which the Helbrute finished in Melee. The last thing they killed off was a Sternguard Combat Squad after I lost 3 models from it. I just wish it was a Kill Point Mission.

The other one is were I tried a 20 model unit and it spend most of the game in melee with some Genestealers getting withered down by 6-12 Rending Shots a turn [of which I was saving 4-6 a turn. They lasted long enough for me to get my Obliterators in close enough to feed them Flamers and nearly finishing them off. Now I admit that this would not have happened if the Sorcerer had not killed off the Brood Lord with his Force Staff after making 4 Rending Saves.

These are why I don’t think they suck.

Thousand Sons Rubric marines are literally souls bound to armor. As long as the armor isn't in a thousand pieces they'll still be bound and able to move around.
The fact they don't have an a Feel no pain or a second wound is unbelievably stupid.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

The fact they don't have an a Feel no pain or a second wound is unbelievably stupid.

After all, an army with 2 wounds has a lot going for it.

Firstly, as others have said, the problem with slow and purposeless is the lack of overwatch. Secondly, what everyone seems to be missing with the sorcerers is that, while a single tzeentch power might suck, they still come with a 4++ and a force weapon. Against any monstrous creature you're coming up against, that sorcerer gets to reroll his invulnerable saves (thanks to being in a challenge, and everyone around him pitching in for morale support), and once he survives that, he's just got to land a single wound to just end the MC in one hit. From a sergeant. Note that they're also better against multi-wound things like spawn and wraiths for the same reason.

Anyways, as for the main show, I agree, they're not nearly that terrible. Everyone pointing out that units can get cover, which makes the ++ not as good as FNP on the defensive, and the Ap3 not as good on the offense are missing a lot.

On the one hand, last I checked, there were things like helldrakes. As well as other shooting that is both at least Ap3 and ignores cover. And there's close combat, which always ignores cover. There are plenty of times that an armor save can be circumvented where a ++ will come in handy.

On the other hand, it's kind of missing the point to talk about cover saves in that way. While plague marines have to hide in cover to get a save against plasma guns, 1ksons don't. They're not limited by where they can and cannot get cover. Meanwhile, the Ap3 of their bolters forces the reverse on your opponents - they become beholden to cover in a way that they weren't before.

That means that you can go anywhere on the table in equal safety while hemming your opponent into limited places on the table. Any player who understands field position will be willing to pay for that kind of an advantage. That you get some other neat bling on top is just icing on the cake.

Davor wrote:
For all the people who Mathhammer all the time, WTF is wrong with you people? I mean why are you not making money off this by gambling? If your Mathhammer skills are soooo good, why not go to the casino, race track and put your Mathhammer skills to good use?

we probably graduated highschool/college and took math up to grade 12 and are not slowed so it just comes naturally?
and because we have these skills we would avoid places like that. it's the nonmathhammering people that would go there and waste their money.

I've actually tried them out cause I wanted to try a Tzeentch heavy army and was already taking a sorc. so I gave it a shot.

My experience was that they quickly chewed through points and didn't have any upgrades worth taking.
I got them onto the field against a Ravenwing bike list.
That wasn't a fun game. So many bolters... I just couldn't make enough 3+ saves and his bikes were able to do so much more than the 1ksons for around the same cost.
Now if I had taken plague marines, I would have gotten to take armor and then FNP saves while also taking less wounds due to T5.

Really just look at it like this. 1K sons are stuck in the middle ground. They aren't durable like plague marines and don't have the quality of shooting noisemarines can take. And this edition doesn't favor middle grounds. It's one extreme or the other. Either be unkillable with decent firepower or be a glasscannon that's cheap enough to make it's points back.

It is also about Synergy, you can take a Pair of 20 model Bare Bones Thousand Suns Squads [Yes I know that almost 1,000 points, it a 1,000 points with a pair of Melta Bombs] and force you opponent to deal with them, while something else deals with them, usually that is a lot of Dakka or Heavy Weapons Pointed at them, while other things kill off their troops.
This is very viable in a 2k+ Game.

 Anpu42 wrote:
It is also about Synergy, you can take a Pair of 20 model Bare Bones Thousand Suns Squads [Yes I know that almost 1,000 points, it a 1,000 points with a pair of Melta Bombs] and force you opponent to deal with them, while something else deals with them, usually that is a lot of Dakka or Heavy Weapons Pointed at them, while other things kill off their troops.
This is very viable in a 2k+ Game.

I faced something like that.

I just threw a cheap unit to assault them and they were tied up useless the entire game.

It's a pathetic waste of points that can't do anything.

The problem is that for 1000 points my opponents can field a lot more threats than the 1K put out. Eating up points is terrible for synergy.