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I keep looking over the Thousand Suns Chaos Marines and I am still confused as to why they considered a horrible choice.

Basic Thousand Suns Marines:
>Normal Marines Stats except for Ld 10: This is bad how?
>Armor Save 3+/4++: When did this become bad?
>Bolt Gun with Inferno Bolts: How is AP3 bad?
>Slow and Purposeful: Ok I can see were this could be an issue, but it cant make them that bad, a Rhino fixes that.
>Fearless: How is that bad now?
>Veterans of the Long War: Hatred (Space Marines) Bad?
>Elite Choice: Sorcerers can fix this.

Aspiring Champion:
>Normal Veteran Sergeant Stats, but with LD 10: How is this Bad?
>Armor Save 3+/4++: When did this become bad?
>Bolt Pistol/Force Weapon: Bad How?
>Level-1 Psyker: Bad How?
>Fearless: How is that bad now?

I know what it is it’s the Cost Per Model!
Wait: It can’t be that, they are cheaper than Plague Marines, everyone’s Favorite.
Personally I see them to be the perfect choice for objective Holders.

I want to know why everyone thinks there bad.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Wait: It can’t be that, they are cheaper than Plague Marines, everyone’s Favorite.
Personally I see them to be the perfect choice for objective Holders.

Actually, it is that. The plague marines may be more expensive per model, but you get more durability per point spent. The FNP is more valuable then a 4++, because FNP is in addition to your armor save or cover save. The T5 of the plague marine makes the FNP even more useful, in addition to helping against small arms fire.

Overwatch is a big part of a shooty unit like TSons, which they can't do. Rhino doesn't fix SNP either, not in the slightest.


Plague Marines are better objective holders and don't requite a Tzeentch sorceror, just a Nurgle Lord, to be troops.

Tzeentch is a horrible discipline. An aspiring sorceror only gets Tzeentch powers and Sorcerors only get a maximum of 2 non-Tzeentch powers.

Tzeentch powers aren't too bad. Doombolt is pretty awesome, actually...

Against anything worse than AP3 you're not even using that expensive 4++ and your Tsons are dying like normal marines. Normal marines can get 4++ from cover pretty easily too. A Rhino can't fix not sweeping. The level-1 Psyker is very costly for something that's limited to the hugely lacklustre Tzeench table.

Also Pmarines don't seem to pay a champion tax like other units in the Codex

GorillaWarfare wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Wait: It can’t be that, they are cheaper than Plague Marines, everyone’s Favorite.
Personally I see them to be the perfect choice for objective Holders.

Actually, it is that. The plague marines may be more expensive per model, but you get more durability per point spent. The FNP is more valuable then a 4++, because FNP is in addition to your armor save or cover save. The T5 of the plague marine makes the FNP even more useful, in addition to helping against small arms fire.

But FNP will do you no good vs S10 AP-2 Guard Pie Plates and Demolisher Cannons.
As for the other High Sterength AP3/AP2/AP1 Weapon a 4++ is better than a 5+ FNP

 Anpu42 wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Wait: It can’t be that, they are cheaper than Plague Marines, everyone’s Favorite.
Personally I see them to be the perfect choice for objective Holders.

Actually, it is that. The plague marines may be more expensive per model, but you get more durability per point spent. The FNP is more valuable then a 4++, because FNP is in addition to your armor save or cover save. The T5 of the plague marine makes the FNP even more useful, in addition to helping against small arms fire.

But FNP will do you no good vs S10 AP-2 Guard Pie Plates and Demolisher Cannons.
As for the other High Sterength AP3/AP2/AP1 Weapon a 4++ is better than a 5+ FNP

Indeed, however, against those AP3/AP2/AP1 weapons, the plague marines can get a cover save and FNP, whereas the Thousand Sons can get just cover or invulnerable.

Now about S10 AP2, the Thousand Sons win in that regard for durability, but it hardly justifies their cost. The Thousand Sons pay a hefty champion tax and have no special weapons. Plague Marines also get their plague knives and blight grenades.

And a good Chaos player should be dealing with those pieplates. Predators and havocs, anyone?

 Anpu42 wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Wait: It can’t be that, they are cheaper than Plague Marines, everyone’s Favorite.
Personally I see them to be the perfect choice for objective Holders.

Actually, it is that. The plague marines may be more expensive per model, but you get more durability per point spent. The FNP is more valuable then a 4++, because FNP is in addition to your armor save or cover save. The T5 of the plague marine makes the FNP even more useful, in addition to helping against small arms fire.

But FNP will do you no good vs S10 AP-2 Guard Pie Plates and Demolisher Cannons.
As for the other High Sterength AP3/AP2/AP1 Weapon a 4++ is better than a 5+ FNP

I run thousands sons but thats not really true. Str 8 ap 3 pie plates plague marines usally get a cover save + feel no pain which is better then the 4+ invul. Str 10 pie plates are usually really short range.
That being said thousand sons make much better open field objective holders.

So against the small percentage of pie-plate low AP weapons Thousand Sons are better at surviving. Against everything else it's PM. That's a poor example.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Tzeentch powers aren't too bad. Doombolt is pretty awesome, actually...

Yeah, when you GET it. Too bad you only have a 50% chance of getting it, reduced to a 33.3% chance of getting it if you're Mastery 2 or higher.

The Tzeentch powers are complete ass. Wow, I'm so excited that I get to take a Psychic Test, then take a wound, and the POSSIBLY get a useful chaos boon! Ooooh, a Strength D6+1 blast! Let's not even forget that it doesn't even have an AP value.

Doombolt is the only useful one and you can still get it Denied or what have you.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
And a good Chaos player should be dealing with those pieplates. Predators and havocs, anyone?

Yes, Predators and Havocs are SOOO good at dealing with Leman Russes. Or Basilisks that are out of LOS.

But if you are in cover then FnP is better, because you get both. Against my dark eldar you are paying a lot for a invul you wont use against all those splinters and your bolt guns are no more effective then any other. Then how are they good? I wouldn't care about fearless, as I would torrent the unit down anyway. The reason TS aren't good is simply because they pay a lot for an invul they wont often use, because why would I fire my AP 1/2/3 at them with a 4+ invul when I could fire it at something without it?

 Deadshot wrote:
Overwatch is a big part of a shooty unit like TSons, which they can't do. Rhino doesn't fix SNP either, not in the slightest.

How often are you getting Assaulted in 6th Edtion: The Shooty Edition [Sarcasm]. Most units shouuld not be getting close to you.

Plague Marines are better objective holders and don't requite a Tzeentch sorceror, just a Nurgle Lord, to be troops.

And this makes Thouseand Suns worse how?

Tzeentch is a horrible discipline. An aspiring sorceror only gets Tzeentch powers and Sorcerors only get a maximum of 2 non-Tzeentch powers.

You feel that the Firestorm is bad, I forgot Models never get close together.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Overwatch is a big part of a shooty unit like TSons, which they can't do. Rhino doesn't fix SNP either, not in the slightest.

How often are you getting Assaulted in 6th Edtion: The Shooty Edition [Sarcasm]. Most units shouuld not be getting close to you.

Assaults happen infrequently but they still DO happen. And Thousand Sons can't do anything about it.

Plague Marines are better objective holders and don't requite a Tzeentch sorceror, just a Nurgle Lord, to be troops.

And this makes Thouseand Suns worse how?

Have you SEEN the Tzeentch psychic discipline?

Tzeentch is a horrible discipline. An aspiring sorceror only gets Tzeentch powers and Sorcerors only get a maximum of 2 non-Tzeentch powers.

You feel that the Firestorm is bad, I forgot Models never get close together.

Dude, it's a D6+1 Strength small blast that has no AP. Even if you do wound them, they'll get their armor save. Plus it's not even a matter of spacing things out. Any competent player spreads out their models so most of the time you're only hitting 1-2 guys.

Maybe it’s my local Meta Talking, but had two games in a row with my Marines that I never got the opportunity to even take a Save of any kind including cover. I am normally facing AP3 Flamers, Melta Guns and Plasma. The only thing getting saves are my Terminators.

How after are you facing the Heldrake or Heavy Flamers?
How about all of the Power Swords, Power Axes and other AP2 Melee Weapons in Challenges?
Those Terminates are going to crush your T5 Marines without working up a sweat, at least with the Thousand Suns, they will stand there for a Turn or two so you can some help to them.

I am not saying the Thousand Suns are the Best, but they definably don’t suck.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Have you SEEN the Tzeentch psychic discipline?

No this makes the Sorcerer So-So, not the Thousand Sons. I look at the Aspiring Sorcerer as a Sergeant with a Power Weapon that can cause ID.

Its true there are things where 4++ is better then t5 and fnp. Also there are situations where ap3 bolter shots are going to own face.

But the issue is that, point for point. The plague marines are better, as well as more survivable against a wider range of threats. They are also more threatening in more situations, their special weapons and plague knives are scary scary tools. That and they can take assaults better as well being able to over-watch and having defensive grenades.

I am not saying the T-sons are bad units, they are just hampered heavily by their inability to take special gear and their inflated cost. If they where 3 points cheaper and able to take 2 special weapons, you would likely see them a lot more.

The powers you have access to are terrible. If the powers don't buff the unit, you shouldn't even have an expensive champion in there. I could see it justified if the champion was so good that the unit was more so to protect him, but even doombolt couldn't justify it. If the champion had access to diviniation, I could see them being useful.

 hazal wrote:
Its true there are things where 4++ is better then t5 and fnp. Also there are situations where ap3 bolter shots are going to own face.

But the issue is that, point for point. The plague marines are better, as well as more survivable against a wider range of threats.

I am not saying the T-sons are bad units, they are just hampered heavily by their inability to take special gear and their inflated cost. If they where 3 points cheaper and able to take 2 special weapons, you would likely see them a lot more.

I agree completely [I know you do see that phrase much here] other than the Special Weapons, to me it seems Un-Fluffy,

 Anpu42 wrote:
Maybe it’s my local Meta Talking, but had two games in a row with my Marines that I never got the opportunity to even take a Save of any kind including cover. I am normally facing AP3 Flamers, Melta Guns and Plasma. The only thing getting saves are my Terminators.

How after are you facing the Heldrake or Heavy Flamers?

Against the Baleflamer, a Plague Marine and a Thousand Son are fairly equal in terms of survive-ability.

How about all of the Power Swords, Power Axes and other AP2 Melee Weapons in Challenges?

Depends on who's wielding them when we're fighting. The nice thing is that Plagues can 1. Fire Overwatch, 2. Have defensive grenades to negate charging bonuses, 3. Have plague knives so against T4 and below opponents they can reroll to wound and against T5 or higher they wound on a 4+. Heck, they even have Krak Grenades for vehicles. In combat, Plagues have 2 attacks because 2 CCW. Champions have 3 attacks (because 2 CCW unless you have a lightning claw) and can have Power weapons as well.

Meanwhile, in combat Thousand Sons do nothing except hit their opponent with a single attack. Oh and let's not forget that in challenges, your expensive sorcerer (he's 58 pts) HAS to challenge.

Those Terminates are going to crush your T5 Marines without working up a sweat, at least with the Thousand Suns, they will stand there for a Turn or two so you can some help to them.

Let's say the typical TH/SS Terminators in a unit of 5. When they charge against Plagues, they get overwatch and blight grenades negate their +1 attack bonus so AT MOST they will get 10 attacks. Even less if one dies during overwatch, etc. Then the Plagues go first since Thunderhammers are unwieldy, and so I get to make my 2 attacks each per guy which reroll to wound because poison.

If the worst case scenario happens and I don't kill any, then there's 8 attacks coming at me (sergeant has to challenge). With 8 attacks, 4 hit, 3.32 wound, and with FNP I lose 2.19 Plagues.

versus Thousand Sons, the 5 charge in. You get no Overwatch so they get 12 attacks against you, again worst case scenario and you don't kill any. 12 attacks, 6 hit, 5 wound, you lose 2.5 Thousand Sons. (Remember again that you have to challenge with your sorcerer).

I am not saying the Thousand Suns are the Best, but they definably don’t suck.

Nah, they're pretty sucky.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Said Stuff

Your experiances and mine are compleatly difrent.
My Plage Marines have already Died in Droves to Walls of Plasma SPAM to my Marines before my Terminators even get close. The only thing that dies quicker is Bearzerkers.
I have had my Thousand Sons take concentrated fire from Multi-Meltas and Las-Cannons for 3 Truns befor Droping.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Said Stuff

Bunch of anecdotes

Really neat dude, I'm glad you're as lucky as you are. However statistically Plague Marines are better which I proved up above.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Said Stuff

Bunch of anecdotes

Really neat dude, I'm glad you're as lucky as you are. However statistically Plague Marines are better which I proved up above.

While I do understand Mathhammer I have found it to be wrong on the table top at times.
So I will ask this, have you tried using Thousand Suns?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Said Stuff

Bunch of anecdotes

Really neat dude, I'm glad you're as lucky as you are. However statistically Plague Marines are better which I proved up above.

While I do understand Mathhammer I have found it to be wrong on the table top at times.
So I will ask this, have you tried using Thousand Suns?

No, I've played against them several times and tabled them every time. For reference I play Guard, Inquisition, and Daemons.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Said Stuff

Bunch of anecdotes

Really neat dude, I'm glad you're as lucky as you are. However statistically Plague Marines are better which I proved up above.

While I do understand Mathhammer I have found it to be wrong on the table top at times.
So I will ask this, have you tried using Thousand Suns?

No, I've played against them several times and tabled them every time. For reference I play Guard, Inquisition, and Daemons.

That explains Everthing.
Your you information, I uasly only Field 2 Squads of Thousand Suns, the rest is a the mix from Dark Vengance. I actualy found my best is the Hellbrute. I usaly get lucky and it spends the game with Fire Shield on it. Most of my Aspiring Champions I loose by them becoming Deamons, so yes I have been Lucky with them.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Said Stuff

Bunch of anecdotes

Really neat dude, I'm glad you're as lucky as you are. However statistically Plague Marines are better which I proved up above.

While I do understand Mathhammer I have found it to be wrong on the table top at times.
So I will ask this, have you tried using Thousand Suns?

Mathhammer isn't wrong. You just have to understand that in a dice game with a fairly small sample size you are subject to variability. Hoping that you hit the correct side of that variability is not a particularly appealing strategy.

The 1k sons AP3 bolters are easily reproduced by heldrakes (which are even better due to ignoring cover). Many units can take plasma weapons. Plague marines can take plasma guns for example. Then the plague marines can tackle the same targets as the 1k sons, but they can also affect vehicles in both shooting and assault. Furthermore, if they're faced with terminators the plasma guns have something to say about that as well. The 1k sons just bounce off terminators.

If you could take the sons without the aspiring sorcerer then perhaps you'd see them more frequently.

That explains Everthing.
Your you information, I uasly only Field 2 Squads of Thousand Suns, the rest is a the mix from Dark Vengance. I actualy found my best is the Hellbrute. I usaly get lucky and it spends the game with Fire Shield on it. Most of my Aspiring Champions I loose by them becoming Deamons, so yes I have been Lucky with them.

Finally, it's possible to proof read things even on a smart phone.

I am sorry to say, but yes Mathhammer Can Be Wrong.
Look at the Heldrake, when it first came out it was hated as much for its look as much as for it’s “Rules”. Then it was taken out an used and then there was this “Holy [Bleep]”.

Blood Claws look Horrid especially when placed next to Grey Hunter, but when tooled up right and the right Synergy they are brutal.

plague marines also get 2 special weapons and 1 combi weapon per 5 guys.

lol AP3 bolters. lol

[Rant mode]
I AM NOT SAYING THE OTHER UNITS ARE NOT BETTER!!!
I AM SAYING THAT THE THOUSAND SUNS DO NOT SUCK!!!
[Rant off]
I would love to run an a Tzeentch Army, but as much as I love Fluffy Armies I cant find myself to do such.
When I do make a Chaos Marine list I usually take 1 Sorcerer with MoT, 2 10 Man Squads of Thousand Suns and usually one Squad of Obliterators with MoT. Then I use MoS units for most of the other Units.

 Anpu42 wrote:

I agree completely [I know you do see that phrase much here] other than the Special Weapons, to me it seems Un-Fluffy,

I see this a lot and get confused as to why people think that.

Then I remember not everyone played 2nd ed where Thousand Sons squads had 3 special/heavies.

Another problem for TS is change to Rapid fire. In 5th edition Slow & Purposedful actually had a point since Relentless was very useful for Rapid firing troops (TS still sucked in 5th, mind you). However in 6th edition, every Rapid firing troop unit can move & shoot just like Thousand Sons, and since nearly every other troop is much cheaper, they will easily outshoot poor Rubric marines in any kind of shootout. S & P is pretty much only a detriment, preventing them from Overwatching. It would be useful if they could take Heavy weapons, which they of course can't. OK, it allows them to assault after rapid firing. Because you so want to assault with your Thousand Sons. <. sarcasm.

So no, Thousand Sons aren't great, and new armies like Tau which can spam ungodly amount of dakka make them even more obsolete.