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40k canon is literally anything you make of it. Because ultimately GW perceives setting down a single unified vision of the setting as a waste of time after seeing the clusterfeth the Star Wars EU devolved into.

Deadshot wrote:Didn't GW state that all "canon" is canon as long as it comes from an official source? Ie, GW, FW, BL or a RPG like FFG? Essentially saying anything not fanfiction is canon? Which totally debunks the whole "core" arguement?

No. Actually, Gav Thorpe said the exact opposite. There is no consistent canon, and your fanfiction is just as valid as the studio fluff.

Note that this also means that, of course, Forge World books, Black Library novels and FFG's RPG are just as valid as whatever it says in a Codex or a White Dwarf. The thing is that this validity doesn't mean much. At best you have greater consistency when you limit your perception to specific origins of fluff. For example, the Codex material is fairly consistent compare to what the many Black Library freelancers are publishing, not in the least because you have way fewer people (and thus fewer opinions), and because the studio writers are actively trying to work together rather than everyone for himself.

I've collected a few quotes and sources here. It even features a little thread discussion with Aaron Dembski-Bowden, who (very irregularly) posts here.

GW learned from a mistake?


*Checks newspaper*

Nope. No snowstorms reported in hell. No rumours of flying pigs. Boats stil required to travel by water, no one taking long walks off short peers to the next continent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Didn't GW state that all "canon" is canon as long as it comes from an official source? Ie, GW, FW, BL or a RPG like FFG? Essentially saying anything not fanfiction is canon? Which totally debunks the whole "core" arguement?

No. Actually, Gav Thorpe said the exact opposite. There is no consistent canon, and your fanfiction is just as valid as the studio fluff.

Note that this also means that, of course, Forge World books, Black Library novels and FFG's RPG are just as valid as whatever it says in a Codex or a White Dwarf. The thing is that this validity doesn't mean much. At best you have greater consistency when you limit your perception to specific origins of fluff. For example, the Codex material is fairly consistent compare to what the many Black Library freelancers are publishing, not in the least because you have way fewer people (and thus fewer opinions), and because the studio writers are actively trying to work together rather than everyone for himself.

I've collected a few quotes and sources here. It even features a little thread discussion with Aaron Dembski-Bowden, who (very irregularly) posts here.

So basically what they are saying is that all fluff is canon. And FW saying that Terminstors with shields is real is still true.

Deadshot wrote:So basically what they are saying is that all fluff is canon. And FW saying that Terminstors with shields is real is still true.

Did you actually read the link I posted?

There is no canon. There is no truth.

Exactly. So there is no truth behind Terminators not having it either. There is no truth about Terminators even existing. There are no Terninators. They are a lie. Genestealers don't exist either. Its a conspiracy. The High Lords are actually the secret league of Assassins from Assassins Creed who are really Templar double agents who are really Ork kommandos. Because Doctor Who is the evil mastermind behind it all.

Is this any less true? Not according to GW.

Umm a Chevy 2300 3/4 ton is the Frame they are talking about that weights 3/4 of a ton...
according to Chevy a average Cavalier weights 2300-2565 pounds depending on the model

Deadshot wrote:Didn't GW state that all "canon" is canon as long as it comes from an official source? Ie, GW, FW, BL or a RPG like FFG? Essentially saying anything not fanfiction is canon? Which totally debunks the whole "core" arguement?

There is no such thing as canon. You can pick and choose what you want. Some people limit it on studio source (whether that be BL, GW, or FW), others limit it to books they like. For example, in my Horus Heresy timeline, the books Horus Rising, Outcast Dead and Deliverance Lost do not exist.

 Deadshot wrote:
Exactly. So there is no truth behind Terminators not having it either. There is no truth about Terminators even existing. There are no Terninators. They are a lie. Genestealers don't exist either. Its a conspiracy. The High Lords are actually the secret league of Assassins from Assassins Creed who are really Templar double agents who are really Ork kommandos. Because Doctor Who is the evil mastermind behind it all.

Is this any less true? Not according to GW.

Actually, it can be. If you and your local play group decide that there are no Terminators and there are no Genestealers, and thus remove all of your Termies from your SM armies, and all your Genestealers from your Tyranid armies... you're golden.

Of course, don't expect anyone else to agree with your interpretation of the setting, but that's on them. There's very, very little "canon" to the setting. The Imperium is humano-centric, the God-Emperor sits a lot, and there's a lot of badassery going on. That's pretty much it.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Exactly. So there is no truth behind Terminators not having it either. There is no truth about Terminators even existing. There are no Terninators. They are a lie. Genestealers don't exist either. Its a conspiracy. The High Lords are actually the secret league of Assassins from Assassins Creed who are really Templar double agents who are really Ork kommandos. Because Doctor Who is the evil mastermind behind it all.

Is this any less true? Not according to GW.

Actually, it can be. If you and your local play group decide that there are no Terminators and there are no Genestealers, and thus remove all of your Termies from your SM armies, and all your Genestealers from your Tyranid armies... you're golden.

Of course, don't expect anyone else to agree with your interpretation of the setting, but that's on them. There's very, very little "canon" to the setting. The Imperium is humano-centric, the God-Emperor sits a lot, and there's a lot of badassery going on. That's pretty much it.

Exactly. My point was that as far as GW were concerned this thing is true. So why can Terminator shielding not be real? Especially when the "official"sources like FW say so?

Does it matter? Whether a Termie has a shield generator or not, a Genestealer tears through it like butter. Diamond-Hard Rending Claws > plasma-forged ceramite plating and deflector shields.

I was just making a point.

Personally I prefer the "Insane strength one punch feth you" idea over "going for the weak points."

I like to think my 20 genestealers still have some respect in the universe

Play some Space Hulk. You'll feel better

I remember a piece of fluff that said that the genestealers covered the tip of their claws with psych energy.

 Tyran wrote:
I remember a piece of fluff that said that the genestealers covered the tip of their claws with psych energy.

Never heard that one. Maybe Broodlords, Genestealers no.

Of course, we've neglected the fact that (in game, skip the fluff for a minute) 'removed as a casualty' does not mean 'dead'. The Stealer could just snip the power conduits to the limbs and leave Mr TDA sat there, still alive, but not doing much of anything until the recovery wagon comes along.

I'm kind of tempted to model a whole Brood of 'Stealers with oxyacetylene torches just for the lulz now.

(as a 'Nid player, I prefer the 'Hulk smash' version of events as well, Stealers need to be respected and/or feared)

 Deadshot wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
I remember a piece of fluff that said that the genestealers covered the tip of their claws with psych energy.

Never heard that one. Maybe Broodlords, Genestealers no.

It is a biomorph from the 2nd edition codex, but Genstealeres could not take it nor the Broodlord.

BunnyCommando wrote:
Of course, we've neglected the fact that (in game, skip the fluff for a minute) 'removed as a casualty' does not mean 'dead'. The Stealer could just snip the power conduits to the limbs and leave Mr TDA sat there, still alive, but not doing much of anything until the recovery wagon comes along.

I'm kind of tempted to model a whole Brood of 'Stealers with oxyacetylene torches just for the lulz now.

(as a 'Nid player, I prefer the 'Hulk smash' version of events as well, Stealers need to be respected and/or feared)

Except in the case of Nids, Genestealers in particular, it does. Genestealers are highly intelligent and leaving him alive isn't as effective as killing him. Killing him permanently removes him from the fight rather than disabling, which can be temporary if the wagon arrives early. In a full scale nid invasion, killing means faster consumption time.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
What the hell is that sedan made out of? Depleted uranium?
Also a 5 person car? You crazy brits.
A model 2500 extended cab truck is 3/4 of a full ton, and most "car" style cars are 1000-1500 pounds.
I now realize I was using short tons. Large trucks are normally considered about 2250- 2500 pounds.

A truck advertised as a 3/4 ton truck doesn't weight 3/4 of a ton. An F150 (a 3/4 ton truck) weighs close to between 2.5 and 3 ton (5000 to 6000 lbs) depending on loadout and age. He is wearing about 1/6 of a truck. If a bullet can get through with luck, a well placed strike can too.

i CAN'T BELIEVE that car discussion is still going on. Guess most cars are bolted together by ork meks and just shoved into peoples hand without telling them anything.

We'll see if GW makes genestealers attacks AP2 when the next codex comes out. Would be interesting.

http://youtu.be/gOrdOl6xoRc?t=4m45s

They don't need it. They have Rending. Thats what gives them the ability to punch through Terminator armor.

I could see them getting AP4 melee attacks. I think many tyranid melee biomorphs will gain AP values.

Diamond isn't very strong compared to things we already have like Graphene, fullerite, Carbon Nanotubes & similar things. Compared to what terminator armor must be made of it's nothing.

Can't let that go, the three structures you think are harder than diamond are all the same basic structure where each carbon is bonded to 3 other carbons. In diamond, each carbon is bonded to 4 other carbons.

Anyway, you should be thankful terminators, back in the old space hulk days, one genestealer could kill half a dozen marines without breaking sweat!

Many Tyranid organisms and Genestealers in particular are noted for having claws that are stronger than diamond and have a monomolecular edge.

Also we can question how humans can make a one-man suit of armour that can withstand being a room with fusion going on? Can hairless apes with tools really be that creative, the uber-sharpness provided by Tyranid evolution is far more plausible. There is little explanation of how the energy does not get through the eyes of the armour? Tyranids also use evolutionary methods beyond human comprehension.

In other words Terminators can keep their super tough armour which nobody can explain the precise workings of IF Genestealers can rip it apart.

Tyranids are from a different galaxy and have adapted to a completely different set of rules when it comes to combat and warfare...who knows what organisms they adapted to fight thousands or millions of years ago. It's entirely possible that a biological organism from another galaxy would be capable of some crazy stuff not seen in our Milky Way.

At a very basic level its pressure per square inch I think (or in the case of monomolecular Stealer claws - pressure per square millimeter).
If you have a small enough point and apply enough pressure you can pierce pretty much anything.
We have no idea how much pressure a Stealer can exert via its muscular structure.
Saw one of those Discovery shows lately "animal X Vs animal Y" in a fight thingys.
I recall them saying something like Crocodiles (and sharks I think) have a form of muscle in their jaws that isnt found in any other species and has uttelry immense pressure/bite ability.
Stealers have possible adapted a hyper version of this. Couple that with their monomolecular claws and Termi armor is in trouble.

In short: physics.

Sorry... pedantic hat is on today.

Molecules are measured in angstroms, or 10^-10m.

Pressure by definition is a force per unit area.

Otherwise I concur with your post entirely

No worries Flinty!
Physics was never my strong point in school

 jifel wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
It's a bit over 1000 pounds in weight so you're literally wearing a car.

I'm going to go ahead and say that most cars weigh more than that...

the average car (american, because foreign cars typically weigh less) is 4,000 pounds.

so you'd only be wearing the engine and the front chasis.

still a considerable sum

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Terminator armor doesn't have a power field. Its invulnerable save was an extension of the fact that they used to role their save on 2D6 and a 2+ on a D6 just wasn't as tough as the armor actually is supposed to be.

I think it does. The symbol built into the left or right (I forget) maintains a weak force field around them.


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 Leech wrote:
Many Tyranid organisms and Genestealers in particular are noted for having claws that are stronger than diamond and have a monomolecular edge.

Also we can question how humans can make a one-man suit of armour that can withstand being a room with fusion going on? Can hairless apes with tools really be that creative, the uber-sharpness provided by Tyranid evolution is far more plausible. There is little explanation of how the energy does not get through the eyes of the armour? Tyranids also use evolutionary methods beyond human comprehension.

In other words Terminators can keep their super tough armour which nobody can explain the precise workings of IF Genestealers can rip it apart.

Really really pedantic here but humans aren't hairless...

BaconUprising wrote:I think it does. The symbol built into the left or right (I forget) maintains a weak force field around them.

The Crux Terminatus? I think you may be confusing this with another piece of equipment.
Though I won't dispute the possibility that perhaps this is just a case of licensed fluff once again contradicting the studio material.