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djz05 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tomjoad wrote:
I guess I should just RTFR, but can you take the Shield Eternal, a cc weapon AND a ranged weapon? Or just 2 of 3?

You can take all three, restrictions are so 5th ed.

Not in this case, armoury requires you to swap one weapon for a relic.(Indomitus armor is the exception) In this case you either trade in your chainsword or bolt pistol for the Eternal Shield.

If you take a regular Storm shield though, you can keep the chainsword and bolt pistol then trade them for 2 other weapons.

I'm looking at the codex right now and it says you may swap Chainsword for a Relic Blade, and take weapons/equipment from the various armouries with no restrictions.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WarOne wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Because Tigurius allows you a 80% chance to get misfortune which is extremely important for dealing with Screamerstars and Seer Councils, my two biggest fears.

This is when you ally with Smurfs as an Iron Hands Detachment would not be able to take him.

I'm pretty committed to Tau allies so it's either Tigurius or two Iron Hands CMs...

As with all things, it depends what you want to do.

If you want a beatstick who will murder everything but Land Raiders and has an even chance of taking Abbadon's lunch money and giving him a wedgie, go all in, spring for the bike, art armor, burning blade, and shield eternal.

If you want a potent HQ, but one with obvious flaws that a smart opponent might exploit (which, if you're smart, can set off a cat and mouse game where you come out on top), take the cheaper stuff.

Usually, if I'm going cheap, I'm going utility, something that gets me some nifty special rules or army bonus, over beatstick status. If I'm going beatstick, I like to go all out. Unit of MEQs? Barbecue half those suckers before they even get a chance to blink. Unit of TEQs? Same thing. Predator tank? Excuse me while I put out 5 S7 attacks against rear armor that get a +1 on the vehicle damage chart. Meaty enemy HQ? I hope you've got a good invuln save, because you'll need it to last past round 1. Nasty MC? You're dead to the world.

In addition, I would definitely invest in Artificer Armor. If your HQ gets above 200 pts, you want that 2+ save. Nothing will make you hate yourself and your investment more than dying to small arms fire. With a CM in PA, it takes 12 wounds to get 4 unsaved wounds. In artificer armor, it take 24 wounds.

Imagine Tau pulse rifles are firing at you. Lets imagine that player also has markerlights, so they're firing at BS4.

Working backwards, it would take 36 shots to kill a PA CM. 36*2/3*1/2*1/3 = 4 unsaved wounds.

Compare that to a guy in artificer armor. It would take 72 shots to kill a AA CM. 72*2/3*1/2*1/6 = 4

The first one you can put out with two units of fire warriors potentially, or one unit + some support units.

The second one is basically impossible to shoot in one turn, unless pretty much your entire army is involved, which will be difficult once ranges, LOS, etc., comes into play.

And of course, most armies don't have small arms fire at BS4 S5.


One more thing, I like the idea of a WS guy too. Sure, he doesn't get IWND and 6+ FNP, but he DOES get hit-and-run, which helps if you go up against lots of horde armies that like to tar pit death star units.

If you play lots of Pacific Rim 40k, then IH CM is probably better, but if you're up against guard blob, green tide, roll tide armies more often, then you might enjoy the WS one, who can sneak away from blobs and get to the juicier units.

All this mathammer doesn't take into account how much you pray to the dice god.

Just saying

 Senortaco wrote:
All this mathammer doesn't take into account how much you pray to the dice god.

Just saying

The key is to also tailor a list to the strengths of the pimped out Chaper Master.

Assuming your going to drop in on a bike and send him off towards the enemy, you have to plan the other parts of your army to reflect this.

@asmodai

Sorry, i meant chapter relic not relic blade.

djz05 wrote:
@asmodai

Sorry, i meant chapter relic not relic blade.

Please don't provide misinformation. I see nothing in my codex about swapping weapons for Chapter Relics.

my favorite build is;
-jumppack
-armer indomitus
-shield eternal
-thunder hammer/burning blade
-lolz
it is kinda stupid, seeing as it is a huge points sink, (but i love stupid lists) but he runs with a large group of vanvets so he can dump an OB and give them all 2++ on the charge.

 Senortaco wrote:
All this mathammer doesn't take into account how much you pray to the dice god.

Just saying

All the more reason to pay the 20 points for Artificer Armor. I know it's not actually scriptural (though it's often mistaken as such), but the phrase "god helps those who help themselves" comes to mind here, and getting that 2+ save over the 3+ save is definitely doing that.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Please don't provide misinformation. I see nothing in my codex about swapping weapons for Chapter Relics.

Relic Section on the wargear page. It says to replace a weapon with a relic. You can only swap as many relics as you have weapons, which is normally two since everything in the wargear section involves performing a swap. (the Armor being the exception)

Two possible ways around it for more stuff though:
1. Convince rules people that Melta bombs are a weapon, allowing you to have a 3rd weapon from those. I don't think that argument really has legs though.
2. Take a storm shield. Since it doesn't require a swap you could still replace the other two weapons. You can't replace the Storm Shield though, since it's not a weapon, but could give you a good way to get a 3++ while also having something like Primarch's Wrath and Burning Blade.

i think only combat shields "don't replace". may be wrong.

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
i think only combat shields "don't replace". may be wrong.

You are. Oddly enough Captain/CM can just buy a Storm Shield without replacing anything. However, the Shield Eternal replaces a weapon.

can you really take Shield Eternal AND Burning blade on the same character? O__o

 centuryslayer wrote:
can you really take Shield Eternal AND Burning blade on the same character? O__o

There was a huge debate on this, but apparently the army builder in digital edition allows it.

Poly Ranger wrote:
In a challnge how many models are able to put 6w on a t5 model before the 2+/3++/6 save? And after that he gets to recover a wound each turn on a 5+. With a 3++ I wouldnt exactly say he will be haemorrhaging wounds, when excetionally few models have more than 6 attacks to begin with, which at worst have to hit, wound, then get past a 3++. Often having to get past a 2+ with a 6+ fnp.

In a challenge? Anyone with a powerfist is a risk for starters, hell, anyone who is initiative 1-4. You're still rolling saves the Burning Blade Master does not have to because he killed his enemy before they struck. Every time he is in combat with I1-4 opponents the Thunderhammer Master is taking more damage than the Blade. Whether it's whole wounds or part.

As I say, take a wound or 2 and suddenly that combat HQ/MC is out of your league because he's striking first, and he may be gunning for you and just as mobile. The marine dex hands players an AP2 at initiative weapon, not using it boggles my mind. My Slaaneshi Lord would trade someone else's right arm for that.

 Crimson wrote:

 centuryslayer wrote:
can you really take Shield Eternal AND Burning blade on the same character? O__o

There was a huge debate on this, but apparently the army builder in digital edition allows it.

Uhm, okay. I'm gonna have to read in the codex on this one I suppose xD

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

djz05 wrote:
@asmodai

Sorry, i meant chapter relic not relic blade.

Please don't provide misinformation. I see nothing in my codex about swapping weapons for Chapter Relics.

Page 159, Chapter Relics: "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following." It then lists the Relics. It's really not that hard to find.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

djz05 wrote:
@asmodai

Sorry, i meant chapter relic not relic blade.

Please don't provide misinformation. I see nothing in my codex about swapping weapons for Chapter Relics.

Page 159, Chapter Relics: "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following." It then lists the Relics. It's really not that hard to find.

Doesn't say that in my digital codex, wtf.

Anyway, I tried out the double Iron Hands Chapter Masters today against Tyranids and they rocked- one CM tanked 26 wounds from a gaunt charge surviving on a single wound thanks to FNP and artificer,
my Shield/Hammer Warlord smashed a Bonesword/Lashwhip Hive Tyrant and tanked most of the Doom wounds and nid shooting.

One thing I realise about the Orbital Bombardment is that they have to target the same unit as the Tau Commander to get the buffs, so having two may be of limited utility.

I found the Primarch's Wrath to be quite underhwhelming. Sure, salvo 5 shred shots are nice but kind of superfluous given the amount of anti-personnel my list already packs.

In other news, Grav-Amp Centurions with a Tau buff commander are absolutely brutal against Nid MCs.

Sure Iron Hands traits are nice, but I might be tempted to go for Tigurius and a second unit of Grav-Amp cents instead, dropping the Bike grav-gun command squad.

It's probably a different page in the digital, but it's there. It's at the top of the armoury.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
It's probably a different page in the digital, but it's there. It's at the top of the armoury.

Actually, it's right below the "Chapter Relics" text in the armoury.

I think it works great with White Scars.

I have used it a few times and hit and run on this guy is just hilarious. I just use a power fist, however, instead of the sword. I like the STR 8 of the fist combined with the shield eternal.

herpguy wrote:
Everybody is completely overlooking the fact that the burning blade is way more expensive than the thunder hammer.

And that's why I say fist over blade. I can use those points to better effect elsewhere. The reason is because you get a marginal upgrade going from the fist to the blade. Is that really worth 30 points?

Hammer over fist though. Concussive for 5 points is worth it.

I will be radical and present the most expensive version of the CM yet in this thread.

Play White Scares and take Khan and a command squad on bikes with an apothecary and some grav guns. Then ad a CM (white scares also) with a bike, shield eternal, power fist, aupex AND ARMOUR INDUMITUS.

That is 290p for the CM and 650p in total (CM, Khan and the command squad). Yes, it is A LOT of points.

BUT. If you are going for the cheapest viable CM on bike you are already spending 245p, and although he is strong he won't make it across toward a gunline of Tau or Eldar. So, that would be 240p of not only a point sink but also, in my experience, a literally waste. To get the points/board control back from your investment you have to spend even more, I believe.

I run my CM with the command squad and scout as close to the opponents core as I can. LoS blocking terrain is handy and you should try to not be in range from the whole army, naturally. Then I, usually, use the armour indimitus to get the 2++ and feel no pain 5+ from the apothecary. In that turn he is almost unbreakable and most armies without torrent shooting will have to really commit or struggle to put even a single wound on him, and you can almost guarantee a second turn charge into whatever you want.

What I have found really makes this unit worth its gakload of points is the hit and run ability. It is no where as resilient as the screamer council, but thanks to H&R it could be harder to stop chewing through an army.

To summarize: scout, 2++ and feel no pain guarantee you will hit the lines turn 1 or 2 without much harm, and hit and run will potentially let you hit a new unit every turn AND also keeps you safe from shooting. I would rather spend 650p and guarantee utility than spend 400p (a cheap CM and a normal bike unit) and don't make the leap. And while my deathstar still lives the rest of my army (bikes, storm talons, scouts and thunder fire cannons) can operate quite freely.

Don't spend a lot, spend massively, or spend nothing at all.

60 points for a 2++ for one phase when you already have a 3++ is a little silly. That almost buys you another 3 bikes.

yeah, but the unit gets it, and all units within a bubble i believe.

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
yeah, but the unit gets it, and all units within a bubble i believe.

With the way wound allocation works, giving the whole unit the effect is rather moot. All you need is good model placement, and if you really want to be sure, just buy a Storm Shield or two for 10-20pts in the unit rather than waste 60 that you really don't need.

This is how I would run my CM completely pimped out and with an amazing CC unit to join.

CM - Bike, AA, SE, & Burning Blade - 275pts

Ally WS with DA

Librarian Lvl 1 - Bike & PFG - 110pts
Ravenwing Command Squad - Gernade Launcher & Apoth - 230pts

Total: 615pts I believe! It is an investment but it'll be well worth it IMO.

Mr. Raynor

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
yeah, but the unit gets it, and all units within a bubble i believe.

The AI 2++ does not confer to anyone beyond the wearer of the armor. It is not worth it.

Yes armour indominable sucks for CM on bike.

better to have the sheild eternal, burningblade, bike, and artifer armour (OP you forgot that.... its needed)

Yea, outside of dropping in against tau and dealing with interceptor I cant see the 2+ invul being all that valuable.

Razerous wrote:
Burning Blade or don't bother?

Artificer armour I feel is a must to avoid (well double the amount needed to) being killed by small arms fire/attacks.

Unsure..

It is a must, or you will find yourself facing an AP3 weapon that has something nasty about it. Or mass torrent of wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Hammer over fist though. Concussive for 5 points is worth it.

5 points is worth it because it looks so much cooler

white scars command squad, + kor'sarro khan + chapter master on bike.


Gets were you need it, fast. Ignoring all terrain except for impassable, scouting 12", moving 12", firing off grav guns and twin linked bolters and an orb bombardment at a 42" threat range on first turn. Should easily be in range to assault somthing second turn.

its expensive, but since it takes 4 to 5 seperate units to even dent it if you do proper wound allocation and you can run it up a flank preventing them for having line of sight with that many units, you utterly decimate the opposing army.

you have literally 5 spare toughness 5 3++/4+jink with a 5+ fnp before you loose any combat potential.

Some people cringe when they see that many points on a single unit, but if the opponent, through your own careful manuvering and planning, cant bring their whole army down on it, it will bring their whole army down in 4 turns.