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MWHistorian wrote:Two pages and I have yet to see a real answer.

1. Individual liberty. Aka civil liberties such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, (all religions. Thomas Jefferson had a Qur'an and thought of all religions.) Freedom of press and yes, right to bear arms. (in case the gov gets a little to uppity.)
2. Free enterprise. If I have a good idea to sell some stuff and make money, I am able to do it.
3. Every person is equal under the law and no one has more or less rights than anyone else. A rich person doesn't have any more rights than I do. (yeah right)
4. Every person is accountable for their own actions. If I do something wrong, I get punished. If I mess up, I pay the consequences. Me and no one else.

The constitution and declaration of Independence spells it all out pretty well. The idea of America was that the government was supposed to stay limited and let the people go about their business how they saw fit unless they did something to break a law. It was about individual liberty and now NSA spying on citizens or corporations being called people or no due process if you're a "terrorist." etc.

Three-fifths.

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:No such thing, it's a myth from the 1950s and they were bull gak then too.

I disagree. I would say that Manifest Destiny and the White Man's Burden are traditional American values.

I have zero doubt that many will be up in arms over this, and start claiming the pot's calling the kettle black, but it is what it is: Early America did a lot of heinous gak, and large parts of more recent America doesn't think they should've stopped.

Agreed, we should have gone vertical on the Manifest Destiny thing too. Thats ok, it gave Canada sufficient time to perfect its domestic beers and maple syrup production. It will be assimilated into the collective soon enough.

Actually we tried to fight Canada a couple times back in the olden days...they kicked our butts. We just don't like to talk about it. Of course if we tried again it might be a different story. Come to think of it, the whole reason we have such a ridiculous excessive amount of military spending might be because we have a subconscious national terror of losing a war to Canada again.

Of course they kicked your butts. Thats before Texas joined up.
"God made Texas to train the Faithful"
-ancient Mexican saying


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 Fafnir wrote:

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Don't worry when the next war of conquest comes the ruling elite will tell the rest if us poor saps what our values are. Remember like in the movie Wall Street, "greed is good". BS, not for humanity and the world.

The funny (and scary) thing is that a lot of people saw Gordon Gecko as an admirable character, when the entire point of the film was to point out just how awful he was.

Gordon Gecko is a crap version of the real person: Ivan Boesky. Boesky actually gave the greed speech.


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 cincydooley wrote:
Well the good news is that all those people that identify as liberals in the country can teach all the people that identify themselves as conservatives what it means to do volunteer work or to donate to charities.

Oh. Wait......

OH SNAP!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Two pages and I have yet to see a real answer.

1. Individual liberty. Aka civil liberties such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, (all religions. Thomas Jefferson had a Qur'an and thought of all religions.) Freedom of press and yes, right to bear arms. (in case the gov gets a little to uppity.)
2. Free enterprise. If I have a good idea to sell some stuff and make money, I am able to do it.
3. Every person is equal under the law and no one has more or less rights than anyone else. A rich person doesn't have any more rights than I do. (yeah right)
4. Every person is accountable for their own actions. If I do something wrong, I get punished. If I mess up, I pay the consequences. Me and no one else.

The constitution and declaration of Independence spells it all out pretty well. The idea of America was that the government was supposed to stay limited and let the people go about their business how they saw fit unless they did something to break a law. It was about individual liberty and now NSA spying on citizens or corporations being called people or no due process if you're a "terrorist." etc.

Me likey. You could like, found a country on these values, if you have bacon.

And bacon. Bacon is an American Value. Or at least it should be.

 azazel the cat wrote:
Three-fifths.

Hasn't been law for quite a while.

 Seaward wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
Three-fifths.

Hasn't been law for quite a while.

Since the case of Lee vs. Grant, cert denied.

Three fifths or not, the idea of equal rights is suspicious at best.

In the criminal justice system, people get treated very differently by the law based on race and socio-economic status.

Police profile. Prosecutors aren't uniform in how they treat people in terms of what plea deals they offer. Judges will sometimes be more lenient to some people than others despite similar if not the same circumstances. If you have any sort of mental issues that need treatment, God help you because the system sure won't.

This isn't to say that the system doesn't have its merits, it certainly does, but "total" equality under the law is a stretch.

It's also worth mentioning that historically, the three fifths compromise was only one way people were unequal. It took until the 20th century for african-americans and women to get the vote. Laws againat interracial marriage existed on the books in many states for well into the 20th century. Segregation in sports and the real world too.

We have gotten better, but there are still problems. Homosexuals still don't have the same rights as everyone else. We're getting better, but I'd hesitate to call equal rights a traditional value, as that's a great way to get called out for hypocrisy (and not an undeserved calling out).

 MWHistorian wrote:
And bacon. Bacon is an American Value. Or at least it should be.

That was the 3rd or 4th post of the thread.

Equality before the law is certainly an ideal of all western civilisation. Like any human activity it may fall short of perfection. However, our values are what we aim for even if we sometimes fail.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Like any human activity it may fall short of perfection. However, our values are what we aim for even if we sometimes fail.

I don't agree with a lot you say, but I think you couldn't have been more dead on then this Kilkrazy. A lot of hating going on here, but I think people would do better to focus on this.

It's a term used to make the beliefs of the user valid in the eyes of others, and makes any who disagree seem to oppose America itself.

 azazel the cat wrote:

MWHistorian wrote:Two pages and I have yet to see a real answer.

1. Individual liberty. Aka civil liberties such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, (all religions. Thomas Jefferson had a Qur'an and thought of all religions.) Freedom of press and yes, right to bear arms. (in case the gov gets a little to uppity.)
2. Free enterprise. If I have a good idea to sell some stuff and make money, I am able to do it.
3. Every person is equal under the law and no one has more or less rights than anyone else. A rich person doesn't have any more rights than I do. (yeah right)
4. Every person is accountable for their own actions. If I do something wrong, I get punished. If I mess up, I pay the consequences. Me and no one else.

The constitution and declaration of Independence spells it all out pretty well. The idea of America was that the government was supposed to stay limited and let the people go about their business how they saw fit unless they did something to break a law. It was about individual liberty and now NSA spying on citizens or corporations being called people or no due process if you're a "terrorist." etc.

Three-fifths.

As pointed out that has not been the case for a not inconsiderable amount of time. But if you're content to relish your role as the pot calling the kettle black - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations

In 1960, First Nations people received the right to vote in federal elections without forfeiting their Indian status. By comparison, Native Americans in the United States had been allowed to vote since the 1920s

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Equality before the law is certainly an ideal of all western civilisation. Like any human activity it may fall short of perfection. However, our values are what we aim for even if we sometimes fail.

I don't disagree, at least in part, but it's one thing to try earnestly and fall short as a nation in certain limited circumstances, and another thing for a large portion (if not a majority) of the population to actively oppose measures bringing equality. The issue of homosexual rights is the best ongoing example I can think of.

 DogofWar1 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Equality before the law is certainly an ideal of all western civilisation. Like any human activity it may fall short of perfection. However, our values are what we aim for even if we sometimes fail.

I don't disagree, at least in part, but it's one thing to try earnestly and fall short as a nation in certain limited circumstances, and another thing for a large portion (if not a majority) of the population to actively oppose measures bringing equality. The issue of homosexual rights is the best ongoing example I can think of.

Well, thats because of a 21st century American Value: sticking your nose in other people's gak.

 DogofWar1 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Equality before the law is certainly an ideal of all western civilisation. Like any human activity it may fall short of perfection. However, our values are what we aim for even if we sometimes fail.

I don't disagree, at least in part, but it's one thing to try earnestly and fall short as a nation in certain limited circumstances, and another thing for a large portion (if not a majority) of the population to actively oppose measures bringing equality. The issue of homosexual rights is the best ongoing example I can think of.

God I am about to stir up the hornets nest here, but I've gotta say something. And keep in mind I am a supporter of gay marriage.

Marriage is NOT a right. Marriage is a contractual agreement by law, established by the government, state or federal.

Homosexuals have every right that everyone else has. Their is nothing in the Bill of Rights that they are not allowed. There is no true right that they have that everyone else in this nation does not have.

What they do not have is certain contractual privilideges, in some states, that heterosexuals have.

You want to look at true violators of rights for homosexuals, look at nations like Iran. There is nothing you have to compair the two of us.

 djones520 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Like any human activity it may fall short of perfection. However, our values are what we aim for even if we sometimes fail.

I don't agree with a lot you say, but I think you couldn't have been more dead on then this Kilkrazy. A lot of hating going on here, but I think people would do better to focus on this.

Word.




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 DogofWar1 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Equality before the law is certainly an ideal of all western civilisation. Like any human activity it may fall short of perfection. However, our values are what we aim for even if we sometimes fail.

I don't disagree, at least in part, but it's one thing to try earnestly and fall short as a nation in certain limited circumstances, and another thing for a large portion (if not a majority) of the population to actively oppose measures bringing equality. The issue of homosexual rights is the best ongoing example I can think of.

You must have missed the day in history class where we talked about the worst war in American history to free a people.
Kids these days.

 DogofWar1 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Equality before the law is certainly an ideal of all western civilisation. Like any human activity it may fall short of perfection. However, our values are what we aim for even if we sometimes fail.

I don't disagree, at least in part, but it's one thing to try earnestly and fall short as a nation in certain limited circumstances, and another thing for a large portion (if not a majority) of the population to actively oppose measures bringing equality. The issue of homosexual rights is the best ongoing example I can think of.

The USA has made good progress in moving towards equality before the law. There are federal laws against discrimination for gender, religion, sexual orientation etc. Compare it with 50 years ago.

The fact that some people oppose that sort of thing, might be considered as a reflection on those individuals rather than on the nation's values as a whole.

Personally I think all "marriages" should be civil union contracts. Its the word "marriage" that gets everyone's panties in a bunch in the first place.

 djones520 wrote:


God I am about to stir up the hornets nest here, but I've gotta say something. And keep in mind I am a supporter of gay marriage.

Marriage is NOT a right. Marriage is a contractual agreement by law, established by the government, state or federal.

Homosexuals have every right that everyone else has. Their is nothing in the Bill of Rights that they are not allowed. There is no true right that they have that everyone else in this nation does not have.

What they do not have is certain contractual privilideges, in some states, that heterosexuals have.

You want to look at true violators of rights for homosexuals, look at nations like Iran. There is nothing you have to compair the two of us.

Except the Supreme Court just this year declared DOMA unconstitutional under the 5th Amendment's Due Process clause because of its failure to confer rights to married homosexual couples. In essence, up until just this year we had a law on the books that denied rights to homosexual couples that heterosexual couples enjoyed.

Bringing up Iran is a cute ploy, but not one that really works here. We're talking about equality under law, and up until U.S. v Windsor, homosexual couples had their 5th Amendment right to equal protection denied to them. And the law that kept that right from them was enacted in 1996, not carried over from the 1700s or something (though the underlying sentiment came from then).

Again, equal rights is an "ideal" and we're slowly working towards true equality for call, but calling it a traditional value strikes me as severely revisionist.

 cincydooley wrote:
Well the good news is that all those people that identify as liberals in the country can teach all the people that identify themselves as conservatives what it means to do volunteer work or to donate to charities.

Oh. Wait......

You have to love this argument - conservatives are more caring because they do charity work unlike those horrible godless liberal layabouts. All you have to do is completely ignore the fact that the statistics for "charity work" the argument was originally based on include all sorts of religious stuff that as exactly knob-all benefit to the poor and needy, and that the entire reason society decided it needed a social security system(you know, the one that most conservatives constantly belittle, bemoan, and want to cut back funding for) is because charity failed to solve the problem for centuries.

But hey, I guess paying taxes knowing they help to fund social programmes that actually address people's needs and help them just doesn't cut it when compared to the chance to show off how magnanimous you are by spending a couple of hours at a soup kitchen staving off immediate starvation for people who mostly wouldn't be in such situations if there was a reasonable welfare state and mental healthcare wasn't a privilege reserved for the wealthy.

 whembly wrote:
This?


Don't forget the pink firearms.

At some point, all their periods will sync. And on that day I hope that dad has the only key to the gun safe...

 Yodhrin wrote:

You have to love this argument - conservatives are more caring because they do charity work unlike those horrible godless liberal layabouts. All you have to do is completely ignore the fact that the statistics for "charity work" the argument was originally based on include all sorts of religious stuff that as exactly knob-all benefit to the poor and needy, and that the entire reason society decided it needed a social security system(you know, the one that most conservatives constantly belittle, bemoan, and want to cut back funding for) is because charity failed to solve the problem for centuries.

But hey, I guess paying taxes knowing they help to fund social programmes that actually address people's needs and help them just doesn't cut it when compared to the chance to show off how magnanimous you are by spending a couple of hours at a soup kitchen staving off immediate starvation for people who mostly wouldn't be in such situations if there was a reasonable welfare state and mental healthcare wasn't a privilege reserved for the wealthy.

You're missing the point, almost entirely. In the US, it's often those "liberal layabouts" (your words, not mine) touting everything they're doing for charity, etc, while most people aligning themselves conservatively don't say a word. Then the statistics bear out that people aligning themselves conservatively volunteer and donate on a nearly 2-1 basis. Again, they simply don't talk about it, or flout it on facebook. That's a very, very liberal thing. Look at me, I'm volunteering at the soup kitchen is an incredible 'look at me' moment. It's humblebragging at its finest. Liberals, especially in the 2012 election, LOVED espousing how much they 'care' about the poor and disenfranchised, but don't have the statistics to back it up. And then, somehow, the media turned the amount that Romney gave into a bad thing because either A) He could have given more, or B) too much was given to his church. Blows my mind.

And quite frankly, the Social Security system in the US is horribly broken, which is acknowledged by people on both sides. It's forced investment that for anyone under 40 is going to return less than you put in. As Dave Ramsey so famously stated, one could take 2% of the 15% of your income stolen by Social Security and get a better return than the remaining 13%.

 cincydooley wrote:

You're missing the point, almost entirely. In the US, it's often those "liberal layabouts" (your words, not mine) touting everything they're doing for charity, etc, while most people aligning themselves conservatively don't say a word.

I went to one of the most liberal colleges in the United States, and I almost never hear one of my classmates talk about something they're doing for charity...unless they happen to work for a charity; in which case they're generally pushing a program.

 cincydooley wrote:

Then the statistics bear out that people aligning themselves conservatively volunteer and donate on a nearly 2-1 basis.

Except for statistics like these.

Oh, and then there is this.

It's also worth mentioning that the key reason SS is broken is because Reagan and Congress(es) broke it, the former by capping payroll taxable income (I don't think that amount is even tied to inflation), and the latter by periodically raiding the fund. The former problem is the bigger of the two. SS could be stable for the foreseeable future if the cap was raised to 250k and tied to inflation.

I'm still pissed that the effort to privatize SS was shot down. I'd much rather be in control of my own funds then leaving it in Congresses hands, so they can "raid" it at whim.

 d-usa wrote:

 whembly wrote:
This?


Don't forget the pink firearms.

At some point, all their periods will sync. And on that day I hope that dad has the only key to the gun safe...

You're probably right...

*notices D's flag* How's Germany?

Going good. Making progress in my socialism internship!

 d-usa wrote:
Going good. Making progress in my socialism internship!

Is that code for Oktoberfest?

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Going good. Making progress in my socialism internship!

Is that code for Oktoberfest?

What I really wanna know is this:
Is German beer more potent there?

 whembly wrote:
This?


Don't forget the pink firearms.

Looks like a Tau Firewarrior team with BS2.

Traditional American values? Do americans still care about honest work, good mannars and Jesus?

Its like a Space Marine in 40K still dreaming of the good old days of the Crusade back in 30K.

I dunno why, but I've in warped by the Internet long enough when people ask about American values, the first thing to come in mind is someone replying with "'Merica! F*ck Yea!"

 dogma wrote:

Except for statistics like these.

Oh, and then there is this.

Except for statistics like This

Clearly we'll both find what we want; it's the nature of statistics.

That doesn't change the fact that a principle argument of the left in regards to conservative giving is that much of it is done to the church (using Romney as an example) which has somehow become a bad, or ignoble, thing.