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Whatever is convenient for the person talking about them.

No such thing, it's a myth from the 1950s and they were bull gak then too.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:No such thing, it's a myth from the 1950s and they were bull gak then too.

I disagree. I would say that Manifest Destiny and the White Man's Burden are traditional American values.

I have zero doubt that many will be up in arms over this, and start claiming the pot's calling the kettle black, but it is what it is: Early America did a lot of heinous gak, and large parts of more recent America doesn't think they should've stopped.

 azazel the cat wrote:

I disagree. I would say that Manifest Destiny and the White Man's Burden are traditional American values.

I have zero doubt that many will be up in arms over this, and start claiming the pot's calling the kettle black, but it is what it is: Early America did a lot of heinous gak, and large parts of more recent America doesn't think they should've stopped.

I actually wouldn't disagree completely. In a time those things mattered a lot.

For me 'Traditional Values' is a meaningless term that tends to be whatever the person invoking it happens to believe. Cultural and societal values shift constantly and the idea that there is a 'Traditional Value' or set of that is universal across over 300,000,000 people is itself neglecting reality. It exists and is invoked solely to faliciously back up falicious arguments. Not to mention that being 'traditional' in and of itself is stupid point to start arguing from for anything.

At most we could probably agree that American values include civil liberty, individual freedom of choice, and suspicion of government. Good luck getting Americans to agree completely on what any of those terms actually mean tho

 azazel the cat wrote:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:No such thing, it's a myth from the 1950s and they were bull gak then too.

I disagree. I would say that Manifest Destiny and the White Man's Burden are traditional American values.

I have zero doubt that many will be up in arms over this, and start claiming the pot's calling the kettle black, but it is what it is: Early America did a lot of heinous gak, and large parts of more recent America doesn't think they should've stopped.

Agreed, we should have gone vertical on the Manifest Destiny thing too. Thats ok, it gave Canada sufficient time to perfect its domestic beers and maple syrup production. It will be assimilated into the collective soon enough.

 LordofHats wrote:

At most we could probably agree that American values include civil liberty, individual freedom of choice, and suspicion of government. Good luck getting Americans to agree completely on what any of those terms actually mean tho

And yet I'd argue they include apple pie, McCarthyism, baseball, and relentless nationalism.

The right of every American to eat popcorn cooked in real coconut oil, and drenched with genuine butter.

 LordofHats wrote:
Whatever is convenient for the person talking about them.

That's it exactly. It's rhetorically effective because it's non-specific.

Don't worry when the next war of conquest comes the ruling elite will tell the rest if us poor saps what our values are. Remember like in the movie Wall Street, "greed is good". BS, not for humanity and the world.

I would say it boils down to two philosophies:

"I will do whatever it takes to get ahead at the expense of others"

vs:

"I will do whatever it takes to get ahead in such a way it doesn't harm others."

Nature's focus is 'survival of the fittest' and we all primarily do what is best for 'ourselves' and our genetic offspring. But being intelligent animals, who don't want to smash competing genetics dead with a rock to increase the food supply for our own offspring, there is something to be said about only doing what is good for you which won't explicitly harm others.

Example: I am at the beach with my friends and family, and they decide we want 'subway' for dinner. I write down their orders and it is for like 20 subs. I go to subway, wait in line and finally it is my turn.

Scenario1: I tell them my subs 1 by 1 and force them to make all 20 subs. The action takes about 30 minutes. During this time, everyone behind me in line has various levels of responses. Some leave the store, some get angry where I quickly shout them down, some wait quietly. People who leave the store write angry letters to subway about the incident. The store also loses sales and customers from being upset. But I don't care, I got my subs as fast as possible, I thumb my nose at the situation and enjoy my subs with my family.

Scenario2: I tell them I have a large order, and ask if they can maybe have one employee work on my subs while the other employee helps other customers. This keeps other customers moving and happy as well as paying. This helps the customers as well as the store who makes more money and doesn't have issues. While I sacrifice a little time, it takes slightly longer to get my 20 subs, but I do it not at the expense of others. My family is happy, the store is happy, the employees are happy, the other customers are taken care of.

Some people are simply incapable of understanding or thinking about how their actions impact others. I feel like a lot of 'traditional values' are rooted in this selfish attitude when it should be the opposite.

nkelsch wrote:

I feel like a lot of 'traditional values' are rooted in this selfish attitude when it should be the opposite.

Really? Because 'Traditional American Values,' which are most commonly attributed to 50s and 60s suburban America, include lots of neighborhood interaction, kids playing together in cul-de-sacs, and a general opposite of "selfish" attitude as many of those parents were from what we consider the "greatest generation" of Americans where community was a HUGE factor.

feth, parent's today are 100% more selfish than the ones anyone is alluding to when referencing "Traditional American Values"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

I feel like a lot of 'traditional values' are rooted in this selfish attitude when it should be the opposite.

Really? Because 'Traditional American Values,' which are most commonly attributed to 50s and 60s suburban America, include lots of neighborhood interaction, kids playing together in cul-de-sacs, and a general opposite of "selfish" attitude as many of those parents were from what we consider the "greatest generation" of Americans where community was a HUGE factor.

feth, parent's today are 100% more selfish than the ones anyone is alluding to when referencing "Traditional American Values"

Oh, and by the way. The person that believed in "traditional family values" would have done one of two things:

1. If they were getting Subway, with 20 different sub orders they'd have gotten 2 or 3 of the party subs and made people modify them as they wanted to, or;

2. They'd have had no need for Subway as everyone would have brought a dish to share to the beach.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
No gays visible, kids are ignorant slaves towards their parents, mom and dad are together with dad being the obvious superior, no women in the work force, guns for all, no foreign influence whatsoever, no minorities visible, girls are virgins until they marry, no drugs, no underage drinking and only the Army is allowed to shoot people. So basically what the 70s thought the 50s was like.

I agree with much of this but replace superior with leader. America has always had foreign influence though it tended to come from Europe. There were women in the workforce though they were expected to focus on having and raising children which left very few of them in professional roles and they were pretty much excluded from political and leadership postitions. The country seemed to thrive despite this.

Essentially traditional values are ones that promote the health and wellbeing of the family unit of husband, wife and children. It includes things like no sex before marriage, being polite to people, males giving up seats on public transport for females and young people for older people. Caring about the way you look and being well groomed. Not swearing in public. Respecting authority figures like the police. Intolerance towards bad behaviour.

Have a look at old commercials from the 50s for instance and cringe. Some things were definitely overdone and are ridiculous when looked at today such as attitudes towards females. A lot of the stuff to do with morality and respect for each other though is sadly lacking today.

Don't know what time period this is from but it's an ad for a doll that laughs. You'll sleep with one eye open with this little bundle of joy!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and what cincydooley said.

 Frazzled wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:No such thing, it's a myth from the 1950s and they were bull gak then too.

I disagree. I would say that Manifest Destiny and the White Man's Burden are traditional American values.

I have zero doubt that many will be up in arms over this, and start claiming the pot's calling the kettle black, but it is what it is: Early America did a lot of heinous gak, and large parts of more recent America doesn't think they should've stopped.

Agreed, we should have gone vertical on the Manifest Destiny thing too. Thats ok, it gave Canada sufficient time to perfect its domestic beers and maple syrup production. It will be assimilated into the collective soon enough.

Actually we tried to fight Canada a couple times back in the olden days...they kicked our butts. We just don't like to talk about it. Of course if we tried again it might be a different story. Come to think of it, the whole reason we have such a ridiculous excessive amount of military spending might be because we have a subconscious national terror of losing a war to Canada again.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
What are "Traditional American Values"

Most people hearing those words probably think of freedom, democracy and the promise of prosperity for anyone willing to work hard enough at it.

What would be more interesting would be to actually go ask americans what are their current values. You'd probably see that you have, in fact, very few in common. We had a national survey up here a few months back, and the only things we canadians can agree on is faith in the democratic process, gender equality and the separation of State and Church (which, admittedly, are pretty important points).

I think modern nations are simply too large to share more than a few values across the entire population.

Relapse wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
This?


Don't forget the pink firearms.

No see, for some reason this pic scares me.

is the 5yr old with the 'sniper rifle' and revolver? Or is it his sisters on the verge of puberty with guns?

It appears gun safety isn't part of the curriculum here. I wouldn't be too wild about someone, especially a kid, pointing a pistol in the general direction of my head.

Checked trigger discipline reflexively...at least they have that down. The girls in the front row though....I'm not a fan of using a gun to comb your hair. Other than that the only thing that really bothers me about that picture is the girl on the left might not be quite old enough to handle the kick from that shotgun (unless it's a 410, then go right ahead). I was shooting at about that age and I never hurt anyone.

Oh, and the amount of useless tactical rails on those longarms. If you aren't going to put something there just take the dang rails off...they aren't helping.

American Values? Don't you mean those things that Canada successfully implemented?

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
American Values? Don't you mean those things that Canada successfully implemented?

You're gonna have fun in Big Green.

 dementedwombat wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
This?


Don't forget the pink firearms.

No see, for some reason this pic scares me.

is the 5yr old with the 'sniper rifle' and revolver? Or is it his sisters on the verge of puberty with guns?

It appears gun safety isn't part of the curriculum here. I wouldn't be too wild about someone, especially a kid, pointing a pistol in the general direction of my head.

Checked trigger discipline reflexively...at least they have that down. The girls in the front row though....I'm not a fan of using a gun to comb your hair. Other than that the only thing that really bothers me about that picture is the girl on the left might not be quite old enough to handle the kick from that shotgun (unless it's a 410, then go right ahead). I was shooting at about that age and I never hurt anyone.

Oh, and the amount of useless tactical rails on those longarms. If you aren't going to put something there just take the dang rails off...they aren't helping.

I think what freaks me out is posing with guns. I never minded people owning. But gun culture just freaks me out sometimes. I know responsible gun owners take care not kill someone, this pic is just a bit much if you ask me. I just think guns should not be admired like they are in that pic.

"Traditional American Values" are what politicians say they believe in to get elected, only for us to find out they're secretly banging hookers and sending pictures of their junk to interns.
So, I suppose the real traditional American value is hypocrisy.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

So, I suppose the real traditional American value is hypocrisy.

Have an exalt and this picture of Mr. Sulu;

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Don't worry when the next war of conquest comes the ruling elite will tell the rest if us poor saps what our values are. Remember like in the movie Wall Street, "greed is good". BS, not for humanity and the world.

The funny (and scary) thing is that a lot of people saw Gordon Gecko as an admirable character, when the entire point of the film was to point out just how awful he was.

Well the good news is that all those people that identify as liberals in the country can teach all the people that identify themselves as conservatives what it means to do volunteer work or to donate to charities.

Oh. Wait......

"Traditional family values" are more or less code for "conservative christian morality."

As pointed out, it means slightly different things in different contexts and to different audiences (and at different times), but it generally means that families are built around married heterosexual parents, with sex confined more or less to marriage. In practice, of course, it's a way of announcing your support for the white middle class, in that you oppose homosexuality, single mothers, etc. However, it doesn't alienate others, because, I mean, who isn't in favor of families or values?

See generally: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics#United_States

Don't forget cheap overseas labor.

Two pages and I have yet to see a real answer.

1. Individual liberty. Aka civil liberties such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, (all religions. Thomas Jefferson had a Qur'an and thought of all religions.) Freedom of press and yes, right to bear arms. (in case the gov gets a little to uppity.)
2. Free enterprise. If I have a good idea to sell some stuff and make money, I am able to do it.
3. Every person is equal under the law and no one has more or less rights than anyone else. A rich person doesn't have any more rights than I do. (yeah right)
4. Every person is accountable for their own actions. If I do something wrong, I get punished. If I mess up, I pay the consequences. Me and no one else.

The constitution and declaration of Independence spells it all out pretty well. The idea of America was that the government was supposed to stay limited and let the people go about their business how they saw fit unless they did something to break a law. It was about individual liberty and now NSA spying on citizens or corporations being called people or no due process if you're a "terrorist." etc.

Hotsauce. There is no set in stone American Values. Your "values" are your own. The only values I know of that's set in granite is the US Army Core Values.

Loyalty
Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers. Bearing true faith and allegiance is a matter of believing in and devoting yourself to something or someone. A loyal Soldier is one who supports the leadership and stands up for fellow Soldiers. By wearing the uniform of the U.S. Army you are expressing your loyalty. And by doing your share, you show your loyalty to your unit.

Duty
Fulfill your obligations. Doing your duty means more than carrying out your assigned tasks. Duty means being able to accomplish tasks as part of a team. The work of the U.S. Army is a complex combination of missions, tasks and responsibilities — all in constant motion. Our work entails building one assignment onto another. You fulfill your obligations as a part of your unit every time you resist the temptation to take “shortcuts” that might undermine the integrity of the final product.

Respect
Treat people as they should be treated. In the Soldier’s Code, we pledge to “treat others with dignity and respect while expecting others to do the same.” Respect is what allows us to appreciate the best in other people. Respect is trusting that all people have done their jobs and fulfilled their duty. And self-respect is a vital ingredient with the Army value of respect, which results from knowing you have put forth your best effort. The Army is one team and each of us has something to contribute.

Selfless Service
Put the welfare of the Nation, the Army and your subordinates before your own. Selfless service is larger than just one person. In serving your country, you are doing your duty loyally without thought of recognition or gain. The basic building block of selfless service is the commitment of each team member to go a little further, endure a little longer, and look a little closer to see how he or she can add to the effort.

Honor
Live up to Army values. The Nation’s highest military award is The Medal of Honor. This award goes to Soldiers who make honor a matter of daily living — Soldiers who develop the habit of being honorable, and solidify that habit with every value choice they make. Honor is a matter of carrying out, acting, and living the values of respect, duty, loyalty, selfless service, integrity and personal courage in everything you do.

Integrity
Do what’s right, legally and morally. Integrity is a quality you develop by adhering to moral principles. It requires that you do and say nothing that deceives others. As your integrity grows, so does the trust others place in you. The more choices you make based on integrity, the more this highly prized value will affect your relationships with family and friends, and, finally, the fundamental acceptance of yourself.

personal courage
Face fear, danger or adversity (physical or moral). Personal courage has long been associated with our Army. With physical courage, it is a matter of enduring physical duress and at times risking personal safety. Facing moral fear or adversity may be a long, slow process of continuing forward on the right path, especially if taking those actions is not popular with others. You can build your personal courage by daily standing up for and acting upon the things that you know are honorable.
The Strength Of Unity
Protecting Freedom
THE STRENGTH OF UNITY
The Seven Values of the Army really is what makes the Army unique. Believing in Loyalty, Honor, Personal Courage, Integrity—all those things are really what makes us special, because you give the guys something common to look at.

These Seven Army Values come up every day. When I get up in the morning, and I put on this uniform every day, I think about those Seven Army Values. And, it's not that I sit there and ponder them; it's that putting on this uniform, I couldn't be more proud to do what I'm doing.

As an Officer or leader in general, you're trying to use the Seven Core Army Values every day, in any decision you make every day. With your Soldiers, you want to try to make sure that not only they're carrying it out, but you're carrying it out as well.

Selfless Service, making sure that you're putting forth the same effort from the front that your Soldiers are doing—just all the little things that add up.

Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity and Personal Courage—you learn them when you're in Basic, and that's what expected of you to make a close-knit, tight group.

That's what you want out of a unit: to be really close-knit, work with your guys really well, so the job gets done, smoothly and quickly and safely as possible.

Traditional Values, like Fallout 3 before the Nukes fall.

But it is realy like this, Bringing "American" freedom to the world
"We come in peace, shoot to kill!, shoot to kill!"

Hmm, for some reason I saw "family" instead of "american" in the OP.

American values, like any such concept, is a bit blurred, but there are three or four main sources of what most people would probably cite as American Values: a Protestant work ethic, a puritanical sensibility of morals and decorum, enlightenment ideals of man and his rights, and the frontier need for self reliance.

None of these are in themselves unique to the US, but the blend is pretty unique.

Americans value hard work, and respect people that profit from labor. Despite what some people allege, while the average american resents the idle rich, most people respect those that earn wealth.

Americans value a conservative morality, meaning that temperance in thought and deed is respected. A teetotaler or a raging drunk will fit in less than a drinker that can hold his liquor and knows his limits. Likewise, we have a respect for efforts to appear egalitarian. Asking others to call you by a title is seen as pretentious, while a superior asking to be called by a first name is view positively. Dress and grooming is likewise likely to run towards the plain.

The enlightenment ideals of the Founding Fathers, while laughably ignored by them when they saw fit, are still key to our self perception. We see ourselves as free people, that can speak freely, do what we wish with our property, and hold the beliefs that we wish.

Finally, we respect the idea (some would say myth) of rugged individualism, such that a person that acts unilaterally is seen in a positive light, compared to more collective cultures.

there is plenty of room for corruption in these, and some are almost contradictory (puritanical morals vs. enlightenment free thought in particular), but they are pretty good values, to the extent that they can apply in a modern society.

 MWHistorian wrote:

2. Free enterprise. If I have a good idea to sell some stuff and make money, I am able to do it.

Well this is just patently untrue.

Get it? Patents?!

But seriously, this would be nice, but the American system isn't exactly super for that right now. Patent trolls are everywhere, and if you're not running afoul of them, you're running afoul of Apple/Microsoft/Amazon/Google/some other tech giant with way more resources than anyone could ever hope to have.

Or, if you're talking small businesses, a lot of them won't get off the ground compared to big retailers.

This isn't to say that people can't succeed with a new idea or product, but it is very very difficult, with lots of hurdles.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Checked trigger discipline reflexively...at least they have that down.

That was the first thing that I looked for too

 MWHistorian wrote:
Two pages and I have yet to see a real answer.

1. Individual liberty. Aka civil liberties such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, (all religions. Thomas Jefferson had a Qur'an and thought of all religions.) Freedom of press and yes, right to bear arms. (in case the gov gets a little to uppity.)
2. Free enterprise. If I have a good idea to sell some stuff and make money, I am able to do it.
3. Every person is equal under the law and no one has more or less rights than anyone else. A rich person doesn't have any more rights than I do. (yeah right)
4. Every person is accountable for their own actions. If I do something wrong, I get punished. If I mess up, I pay the consequences. Me and no one else.

The constitution and declaration of Independence spells it all out pretty well. The idea of America was that the government was supposed to stay limited and let the people go about their business how they saw fit unless they did something to break a law. It was about individual liberty and now NSA spying on citizens or corporations being called people or no due process if you're a "terrorist." etc.

As a non-US citizen that seems like a pretty good summation to me