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 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Well we will probably be the lasf codex this time so prepare for a lot of whining from our opponents

I doubt this. Every Xeno codex has been better than every marine codex in 6th. BA are a C:SM derivative. If Orks, Nids, and IG are all better than C:SM, BA will be mid-tier at best I think.

Martel732 wrote:
I thought he was very overcosted even in 5th. He dies to boltguns, or even lasguns.

With a 2+ armour save on average it would take 18 Bolter wounds to take him out which isn't taking into account rolls to hit and rolls to wound. Average Meq for this would be (working backwards):

1/6 chance to fail armour save with 3 wounds: 6*3 = 18 Wounds

50% chance for S4 to wound = 18/0.5 = 36 Hits

66% chance to hit = 36/0.66 = 54.5 shots

So in essence you need to shot ~ 55 Bolter shots to kill him. Back in 5th I don't think even 3 Tactical squads could bring that to bear.

Yes, but over a couple turns, it was not too hard. His pricetag automatically reduced the support available. I've never had problems killing the Sanguinor. T4 is just a huge liability.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, but over a couple turns, it was not too hard. His pricetag automatically reduced the support available. I've never had problems killing the Sanguinor. T4 is just a huge liability.

So he lasted a couple of turns of shooting and you're complaining? Anything can be killed if you target a unit for a couple of turns. Mephiston can be killed in one turn of shooting.

The Sanguinor worked out well for me when I used him in 5th. In one combat he handed Logan his back side on a silver platter and also killed his wolf guard in the process. Oh happy days.

You can't kill Mephiston with a couple turns of small arm fire. That's why he was always superior to Sanguinor. Cheaper, and required more specialized weaponry to engage.

Sanguinor was and is too expensive in a list that has always had model count problems.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't kill Mephiston with a couple turns of small arm fire. That's why he was always superior to Sanguinor. Cheaper, and required more specialized weaponry to engage.

The Sanguinor however lasts longer against higher strength and lower ap weapons. On average it takes 18 Lascannons to take out the Sanguinor. It only takes 9 Lascannon shots to take out Mephiston.

As already pointed out, your opponent isn't really going to have 55 Bolter shots just laying around to solely target the Sanguinor. On the other hand 9 Lascannon/Melta/etc shots against Mephy is easily done. Even 12 Plasma shots will take Mephy out. Thats just Sternguard in a drop pod all armed with combi plasmas.

Mephy wasn't superior to the Sanguinor for survivability reasons, it was because Mephy can be S10 and tear Land Raiders apart that meant he was superior. However just because Mephy was superior, this does not mean that the Sanguinor was a bad unit in 5th. He was still better than Dante back in 5th. Although Dante was taken for Sanguinary Guard Troops.

Sanguinor was and is too expensive in a list that has always had model count problems.

Not in 5th, he wasn't.

Sanguinor was and is too expensive in a list that has always had model count problems.

That's the rub right there. He DOES draw too many points away from the rest of your force while not necessarily adding to it on the battlefield like Mephiston does (imo). I would like to see Sanguinor redone to be cheaper and maybe provide more army wide buffs instead of just being yet another beat stick (which we are not hurting for). I think it would make him more useful AND it would fit his fluff a little better.

DSing LR was only good for getting them killed to mishaps and dropping them into melta range for your opponent.

Despite the fact that melta was so common in 5th, yes, I dropped them right up front. Even melta doesn't tend to kill them as easily as some would think and when you're bringing three it can be kind of overwhelming. It's not that the strategy worked every time (it failed in rather hillarious fashion on several occcasions) it's just that it was an unusual and aggressive tactic that other armies didn't necessarily have. The BA are kind of the DE of the Marine books in that way.

Deep striking wasn't good for the BA in 5th and probably isn't good now. BA just don't deliver enough firepower to make it effective.

It was effective provided you weren't throwing units away willy nilly. In 6th though, I would agree. DSing with them now is just asking to have them all killed before they can do anything.

You still sound like you have always hated this book. I'm curious, what do you think BA CAN do (again, I agree that as of now no one is going to be pulling off any miracles - I'm just curious to see if you have any ideas on how they can be used).

For myself, like I mentioned earlier, jump packed DC with a sang priest are a great addition to a Ravenwing unit. I've also allied them to my DA to get a Storm Raven and the BAAL Pred is another unit that compliments RW really nicely imo.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this topic, especially now that's is largely irrelevant. Mephiston is marginal now, and Sanguinor is out right bad.

But I never saw anyone firing lascannons at the Sanguinor, it's always been small arms or autocannons or something like that.

Being better than Dante is not exactly a high bar. And sanguinary guard is another unit that never really has been good, making Dante even worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I never did really super like the 5th ed BA book. Overcosted trap units as far as the eye could see. Razor spam was a very necessary evil against other net lists. Yeah, 4+ FNP was awesome until you ran into the wall of plasma vets and their Leman Russ back up. IG could double out our toughness and throw the AP 2 to ignore FNP. The 5th ed BA book was a bully book that had to hide in razors against formidable lists.

I know this because when other BA tried to bully me, I cut them to ribbons with my more conservative, body count focused BA lists.

As for what BA CAN do, I'd say almost nothing at this point without list tailoring. I mean if I build a list to go against WS spam, it's probably going to have few tools to deal with Tau or CSM or Daemons. The BA were able to mask and hide their overcostedness in 5th, but there's nowhere to hide now. Basically, BA need to know who they are facing without the reverse being true. And, pray for LOS blocking terrain, which is a non-trivial assumption.

Martel732 wrote:
I guess we can agree to disagree on this topic, especially now that's is largely irrelevant. Mephiston is marginal now, and Sanguinor is out right bad.

Agreed. At the moment we don't have a lot going for us.

But I never saw anyone firing lascannons at the Sanguinor, it's always been small arms or autocannons or something like that.

Depends on what your opponent has available. I admit I've not used him the new Tau & Eldar codices have come out, but that is because I have been playing Tau myself and have recently started Eldar.

Being better than Dante is not exactly a high bar. And sanguinary guard is another unit that never really has been good, making Dante even worse.

He was generally used for the ability to not scatter when deep striking. He was mean with a squad of Honour Guard with meltas.

Yeah, Dante+ honor guard would melta one thing super duper dead, and then get shot by plasma/melta in return. Note that one failed melta save kills Dante.

I hope BA don't get a 6th ed codex, and they're one of the first 7th ed codexes

With the two Marine codexes so far, GW don't appear to want to change things too much. BA need :-

1. Assault Marines made to be good in Assault. Or just forget about 'Assault' and give them Bolters and Relentless.
2. Price of cc upgrades dropped. Far too expensive when compared to gun upgrades
3. Price of Plasma/Infernus Pistols and Hand Flamers dropped
4. Mech made significantly cheaper
5. Terminators made significantly cheaper
6. Dreadnoughts made Monstrous Creatures

"I hope BA don't get a 6th ed codex, and they're one of the first 7th ed codexes

With the two Marine codexes so far, GW don't appear to want to change things too much. BA need :-"

1. Assault Marines made to be good in Assault. Or just forget about 'Assault' and give them Bolters and Relentless.

Not likely on either count. ASM have never had bolters; at least, not since 2nd.

2. Price of cc upgrades dropped. Far too expensive when compared to gun upgrades

We know what the price of cc upgrades will be from C:SM. Now BA just have to be able to take them. Because we couldn't in 5th.

3. Price of Plasma/Infernus Pistols and Hand Flamers dropped

Nice, but seems we already know the price of plasma pistols.

4. Mech made significantly cheaper

We'll get C:SM prices + fast surcharge, if we still have that.

5. Terminators made significantly cheaper

We already know the price of terminators.

6. Dreadnoughts made Monstrous Creatures

We already know what dreadnoughts are going to look like.

BA can still have an effective list in 6th, and the first step is C:SM pricing. Then we look at the bells and whistles. It's just likely this edition that all meq lists are likely to be below the Xenos.

Hey Martel, do you think the Fear Circus is viable in a TAC tourny like FoB or WGC?

Lucarikx

Fear circus is really good against the things its good against, but there are too many lists that are straight up fearless for it to be TAC. Or even TMC.

Unfortunately, the bottom line is that the BA are overpaying for units that are the same thing in the DA and C:SM books. The SW are only viable because the grey hunter was criminally undercosted in 5th.

Do you think a Fear Circus would well vs a Tau Gunline?

Lucarikx

 Lucarikx wrote:
Do you think a Fear Circus would well vs a Tau Gunline?

Lucarikx

As a Tau player I would say yes. Basic troops like Fire Warriors and Pathfinders are at most leadership 8 and thats only if you pay for the Shas'ui. All the suits are Leadership 9 with a Shas'vre upgrade, but very little in the Tau book counts as fearless, so most units, especially all the good stuff will at most be testing on LD7 when taking a fear test.

 Lucarikx wrote:
Do you think a Fear Circus would well vs a Tau Gunline?

Lucarikx

This question was not directed at me but I am a Tau player and would like to chime in. Yes a Fear Circus would work very well against Tau Gunline. There is nothing to stop Fear and Leadership is low for base units.

Playing against a Farsight Enclave army is a different style altogether as suits are much better with leadership and rarely have I seen Farsight Enclave lists with Fire Warrirors (The unit that actually has the crap leadership)

BA were awesome in 5th when they were released. I remember hating to play against them. Of course, they were flavor of the month and EVERYONE had them (Not that ANY of them were actually BA models, just other marines).

Your time came to a close when an army equipped entirely with Power Weapons jumped in. Yeah, once the GK codex dropped I didn't see anymore BA lists.

Overall I think you just need to be costed like C:SM to be fair. I'm not sure why they wouldn't update your prices to match the C:SM release. It seems counter-intuitive to just port the book over without making the changes.

I think this bodes ill for the Space Wolf players though to be honest.

Even when brand new, SW and IG were still better than BA. Heck, I lost to Orks quite often in 5th ed.

If you lost to orks quite often in 5th with BA, I think you need to look at your tactics rather than blame the codex Martel.

I think when the next BA codex comes out we need to be given something special to help us in close combat. I think our base assault marines need to better than those in the SM codex. I know that they are when you add on the priests, and also we can have meltas on our assault marines but we need something to buff close combat for them at base level. I'm thinking along the lines of getting extra combat weapons i.e. You can take power weapons or powerfists on 2 guys in a ten man squad and then of course the sargent can get his as well. Being able to take 3 three special combat weapons in our assault marines would be a good start. Also making them more survivable would be a good idea. I reckon we'll end up getting infiltrate abilities like the ravenguard do or something like that.

In whole what I would like to see is:

1) Mephy and Sanguinor becoming AP2. Mephy being a monsterous creature and just giving the Sanguinor an AP2 sword.

2) Sanguinor gaining an extra wound at least and perhaps independent character so he can join squads.

3) If the Sanguinor doesn't get independent chacter then an artifact akin to the eternal shield would be good. A 3++ and Eternal Warrior. This would really help the survivability of squads going up the board as he could tank the shots.

4) A Terminator character. Too much focus on the assault marines last edition. I know that BA are all about jump packs but lets not forget the whole space hulk fluff and our awesome Terminators. Would be great if it was Gideon or Lorenzo as well.

5) Perhaps bring Moriar the Chosen back. Make him awesome with an invulnerable save.

Obviously other things as well like bring the points back into line with SM, but personally I would love to see the above in the next codex..

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
If you lost to orks quite often in 5th with BA, I think you need to look at your tactics rather than blame the codex Martel.

Not true. Pretty sure I could flip armies and beat the BA often enough to make it a concern. By often I mean 40% of the time. This number probably went down after I went to all mech, but I stopped seeing Orks if I remember correctly.

If people knew what they were looking at in 5th, the BA were hardly a juggernaut.


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 DarthOvious wrote:
I think when the next BA codex comes out we need to be given something special to help us in close combat. I think our base assault marines need to better than those in the SM codex. I know that they are when you add on the priests, and also we can have meltas on our assault marines but we need something to buff close combat for them at base level. I'm thinking along the lines of getting extra combat weapons i.e. You can take power weapons or powerfists on 2 guys in a ten man squad and then of course the sargent can get his as well. Being able to take 3 three special combat weapons in our assault marines would be a good start. Also making them more survivable would be a good idea. I reckon we'll end up getting infiltrate abilities like the ravenguard do or something like that.

In whole what I would like to see is:

1) Mephy and Sanguinor becoming AP2. Mephy being a monsterous creature and just giving the Sanguinor an AP2 sword.

2) Sanguinor gaining an extra wound at least and perhaps independent character so he can join squads.

3) If the Sanguinor doesn't get independent chacter then an artifact akin to the eternal shield would be good. A 3++ and Eternal Warrior. This would really help the survivability of squads going up the board as he could tank the shots.

4) A Terminator character. Too much focus on the assault marines last edition. I know that BA are all about jump packs but lets not forget the whole space hulk fluff and our awesome Terminators. Would be great if it was Gideon or Lorenzo as well.

5) Perhaps bring Moriar the Chosen back. Make him awesome with an invulnerable save.

Obviously other things as well like bring the points back into line with SM, but personally I would love to see the above in the next codex..

I almost can't conjecture without factoring in what I think GW might actually do. Which, I'm guessing, is not a lot, judging by CSM, DA, and C:SM.

Losing to Orks 40% of the time in 5th is pretty bad, I never had that much of a problem. And I face Orks a lot, though that could be why I don't have much of a problem with them.

I agree that SW and Necrons were and are pretty unpleasant, but they are like that for everyone.

There are some nice things in the new SM codex, just as there were in the DA Codex, as well as some stuff which was meh.

I personally have not found the Eldar or Tau to be as horrible to face as you have, but that might be the meta I play in.

Also, the Sanguinor does have a 3++ already.

 warpspider89 wrote:
One thing that I've found surprises people that only BA can do:

Jump pack units with plasma guns... possibly deep striking!

No other SM army can give their assault marines plasma guns.

- Not true. Chaos Raptors can have plasma guns. Or are we only counting loyalists here?

It can be very surprising for your enemy especially since BA are rarely used these days so people are unfamiliar with them. Dev Cents will hate you

I also am highly in-favor of deep striking aggressively with BA. As it is this is an army that has the odds stacked against it. Adopting extreme and, as a result, unexpected manoeuvres through large scale DSing can tip the scale tactically. It just means that you'll either win big through the element of surprise or lose big. But if you are likely to lose anyways then why not go for a hail mary?

I am not particularly knowledgable about blood angels having only played against them once in this edition (with the old eldar codex) but surely they have some things still going for them?

Wide access to jump packs and fnp can't be bad can it, especially with more reliable deep striking from DOA.

 rohansoldier wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
One thing that I've found surprises people that only BA can do:

Jump pack units with plasma guns... possibly deep striking!

No other SM army can give their assault marines plasma guns.

- Not true. Chaos Raptors can have plasma guns. Or are we only counting loyalists here?

It can be very surprising for your enemy especially since BA are rarely used these days so people are unfamiliar with them. Dev Cents will hate you

I also am highly in-favor of deep striking aggressively with BA. As it is this is an army that has the odds stacked against it. Adopting extreme and, as a result, unexpected manoeuvres through large scale DSing can tip the scale tactically. It just means that you'll either win big through the element of surprise or lose big. But if you are likely to lose anyways then why not go for a hail mary?

I am not particularly knowledgable about blood angels having only played against them once in this edition (with the old eldar codex) but surely they have some things still going for them?

Wide access to jump packs and fnp can't be bad can it, especially with more reliable deep striking from DOA.

Deep striking wasn't good in 5th and got even worse in 6th. At least for assault elements. No, the BA basically have not a thing going from them right now. Even the shiny new marine codex is not really a top tier codex, and it is much better than the BA.


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 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Losing to Orks 40% of the time in 5th is pretty bad, I never had that much of a problem. And I face Orks a lot, though that could be why I don't have much of a problem with them.

I agree that SW and Necrons were and are pretty unpleasant, but they are like that for everyone.

There are some nice things in the new SM codex, just as there were in the DA Codex, as well as some stuff which was meh.

I personally have not found the Eldar or Tau to be as horrible to face as you have, but that might be the meta I play in.

Also, the Sanguinor does have a 3++ already.

The hidden power claw scheme and powerful Ork counter attacks as well as battlewagon shenanigans were quite potent in 5th. Orks are the real reason I went to razor spam and MSU and fragnoughts in 5th.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Losing to Orks 40% of the time in 5th is pretty bad, I never had that much of a problem. And I face Orks a lot, though that could be why I don't have much of a problem with them.

It depends what you have really. Assault Marines might have a bit of difficulty against Ork Boy Mobz due to the number of attacks involved. If you were able to whittle them down through shooting first then its not a big deal.

I agree that SW and Necrons were and are pretty unpleasant, but they are like that for everyone.

There are some nice things in the new SM codex, just as there were in the DA Codex, as well as some stuff which was meh.

I think the new SM release is better than the DA one. Don't get me wrong, the Rad Grenade Launchers for DA bikes was pretty good but it is now easily overshadowed with the Chapter Master beatstick that you can tool up anyway you want to join any squad you want.

I personally have not found the Eldar or Tau to be as horrible to face as you have, but that might be the meta I play in.

I think its down to your meta personally. I play BA, Tau and just recently started Eldar. I honestly do believe that both Tau and Eldar shadow Blood Angels horribly. Personally I think Tau is worse because its so much easier to make an abusive list with their codex. Eldar can make a list just as good but it requires more thought and their playing style requires a bit more thought behind it. I think the players you are playing against just don't abuse their lists like some people do. Its possible to just write a normal list with Tau and Eldar that Blood Angels won't find too overwhelming to play against.

Also, the Sanguinor does have a 3++ already.

What I was saying is if the Sanguinor doesn't get independent character then I am hoping that we get an artifact for a 3++ and Eternal Warrior that we can give to a captain.

The problem with this suggeastion is that it is a straight rip off from the Space marine codex (Enternal Shield). SO I think it would be better to just give The Sanguinor IC instead.

"It depends what you have really. Assault Marines might have a bit of difficulty against Ork Boy Mobz due to the number of attacks involved. If you were able to whittle them down through shooting first then its not a big deal."

The real thing that changed my mind was the list with 150 shoota boyz, some of whom were in battle wagons. I realized that in razorbacks, I was 100% immune to shoota boyz. Then, I realized it worked really well against SW and IG because I was fast as well.

as a daemon player I've yet to lose to tau, eldar, or taudar. ..

daemon army is so fast, in their face turn one with 4 daemon princes, seekers and screamers.

Well Daemons are ranked in the top three for a reason. Now imagine what your daemons will do to meq lists.

Keeper_of_Secrets wrote:
as a daemon player I've yet to lose to tau, eldar, or taudar. ..

daemon army is so fast, in their face turn one with 4 daemon princes, seekers and screamers.

Well as said, Daemons are one of the top tier lists. They are pretty much the only assault army at the moment of any worth. A good Tau player could beat you if his list contained some certain elements necessary for taking out flying daemons.