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SO I started this thread to get a general idea of how my fellow BA feel about our... lackluster codex, and the things they are doing in an attempt to overcome this. Or, just to cheer each other up with epic stories of close wins or hard won battles. cheers!

Just click on Martel's post history, he's summed it up more than once

I've killed several GK lists with reserved Stormravens by overrunning their deployment zone in the first two turns.

Shield of sanguinius/FNP is actually decent defense against C:SM gravy guns. But falls apart against "Simpsons did it!". That is the new term for Taudar.

Oh, and I used fast mech to kite around SW until they were mostly dead. Fun, but still kind of humiliating.

Mephiston can make Wraithknights very sad until the Eldar do to him what they do to everything else.

I think I stole one from a DA player with Corbulo shenanigans, but I really should have lost that one, too.

The worst part about BA is when I army swap, how easy they are to beat. Do this, do that, neutralize that one unit, and then the BA totally fall apart. I expect every opponent to know these things and am surprised when they don't.

Oh, yeah, there are stormraven spam lists, but now the vanilla marines do that better as well.

The Codex is now one of the older ones so it is what it is.

I will say this, even though that is the case I have won A lot more than I've lost in 6th in fairly competitive games (not full blown spam craziness tourney games though mind you). Its some what freeing knowing however that when I play them no one expects too terribly much and has let me play around a lot with running DC+Chaplain armies and just random crayness, its always hilarious when my opponent tells me I cant score and I inform them I have no plans to score I'm just going to make sure he has nothing left to score with either, this has also lead to me being told your DC are OP over and over as my odd ball lists are not what people are used to playing against and this throws people off.

I guess my point is go crazy with them at this moment and do things that will make you laugh and entertain you while playing if you can. They're not a top codex anymore for now and we will have to wait our turn in line until our army is brought in line (I really think we will be the last codex done in 6th, unless they re-do those dirty crons as well, then next to last lol) with the new lower point costs and hopefully like all assault armies in the game being re-done are given a few things to help us out in 6th.

I'd kill to have a single person call DC OP and mean it. They're just too easily shot to death.

I really don't think the BA codex will really be any better than C:SM. It will very likely be worse HTH than Nids or Orks and still get evaporated in shooting by "Simpsons did it!".

As Mr. Miyagi said, "You walk middle of the road, SQUISH, just like grape!".

Martel, your nailed it but

***The worst part about BA is when I army swap, how easy they are to beat. Do this, do that, neutralize that one unit, and then the BA totally fall apart. I expect every opponent to know these things and am surprised when they don't. [u]*** <------ this soooooo so much this lol

I always feel the same exact way and I suspect its how I've won more than I feel I should've. After most games I just think wow I would've done this or that in their position and my army would've just got its teeth kicked in, but I guess that's tactics for you.

Yeah, well, overcostedness snowballs so quickly in 6th. Orks wipe up BA because boyz aren't overcosted and BA troops are. It gets worse from there. And Orks don't take No Retreat wounds anymore. Score!

BlackArmour wrote:
The Codex is now one of the older ones so it is what it is.

I will say this, even though that is the case I have won A lot more than I've lost in 6th in fairly competitive games (not full blown spam craziness tourney games though mind you). Its some what freeing knowing however that when I play them no one expects too terribly much and has let me play around a lot with running DC+Chaplain armies and just random crayness, its always hilarious when my opponent tells me I cant score and I inform them I have no plans to score I'm just going to make sure he has nothing left to score with either, this has also lead to me being told your DC are OP over and over as my odd ball lists are not what people are used to playing against and this throws people off.

I guess my point is go crazy with them at this moment and do things that will make you laugh and entertain you while playing if you can. They're not a top codex anymore for now and we will have to wait our turn in line until our army is brought in line (I really think we will be the last codex done in 6th, unless they re-do those dirty crons as well, then next to last lol) with the new lower point costs and hopefully like all assault armies in the game being re-done are given a few things to help us out in 6th.

so a list like this?

Astorath- 220
10 man tac squad w/ flamer and ML- 170
5 man scout w/ snipers and camo cloaks-90
10 DC w/ jump packs 3 PFs 2 power axes- 455
10 man DC w/ Lemartes, jump packs, 2 THs- 560
Corbulo- 105
Storm Raven- 200
Storm Raven - 200

lets just hope corbulo can tank the hell outa wounds! lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
honestly,,, if DC got jump packs for 3pts a model I would be happy happy happy! lol.

Instead of 15? You think?

I dunno, not much sympathy for BA. Its your turn in the cycle, when you hit you'll be better than SM or DA. Right now you have options (run as something else PA, or ally in other PA 'dexs). This is all pretty predictable and expected after all.

Some of the really stout tourney players have placed top 10ish with BA at GTs.... tough, but you can still meta bust a bit. Club play, well you can still have fun. I still run BlueBloods for fun and enjoy it.

There was a decent competitive list at the Nova. It included the following:

2 Stormravens
Terminators TH/SS
Mephiston
Furioso with Talons
3 Assault Squads

There may have been some priests as well. The tactic was to bring the Stormravens on moving 36" across the board and then use the Skies of Blood rules to drop everything off right behind them before interceptor can be used. This effectively gives your opponent five different units in his face to worry about right off the bat and gives the Assault marines time to move up the board.

EDIT: I forgot to add that the Furioso can go in either Stormraven depending on who you are up against.

 Lobukia wrote:
I dunno, not much sympathy for BA. Its your turn in the cycle, when you hit you'll be better than SM or DA. Right now you have options (run as something else PA, or ally in other PA 'dexs). This is all pretty predictable and expected after all.

Some of the really stout tourney players have placed top 10ish with BA at GTs.... tough, but you can still meta bust a bit. Club play, well you can still have fun. I still run BlueBloods for fun and enjoy it.

I don't see much indication of this being likely. They could very well take away cents and grav weapons and give the BA very lame CC chapter tactics. After the DA and C:SM codices, I'm not really that enthusiastic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthOvious wrote:
There was a decent competitive list at the Nova. It included the following:

2 Stormravens
Terminators TH/SS
Mephiston
Furioso with Talons
3 Assault Squads

There may have been some priests as well. The tactic was to bring the Stormravens on moving 36" across the board and then use the Skies of Blood rules to drop everything off right behind them before interceptor can be used. This effectively gives your opponent five different units in his face to worry about right off the bat and gives the Assault marines time to move up the board.

EDIT: I forgot to add that the Furioso can go in either Stormraven depending on who you are up against.

Maybe I'm just desensitized, but I just don't see that as that scary. Some good target prioritization will take care of this.

I love it when people try and argue that the BA codex is amazing. It really isn't. I played with them for about 6 months and I found them really disappointing in 6th Edition in general. Not to mention all of your Assault Marines used to get toasted by those Hell Turkeys.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe I'm just desensitized, but I just don't see that as that scary. Some good target prioritization will take care of this.

Apparently the guy did fairly well with it for a BA list. I got this info from the BA forum on Bolter & Chainsword.

It was Kenny (or Kevin?) Boucher from the BoLS podcast and some painting service that ran the NOVA BA list. He talks about it in one of the podcasts and on an episode of 11th Company. There's also a battle report from one of his NOVA games on youtube.


Current BA is a pretty sad state of affairs, really. You need to absolutely optimize the army and not bring anything that isn't perfect (or as good as it gets in the BA army, anyway) at its job, and then you need to practice a lot to play it perfectly, and even then you get trashed by the top armies. There are just so many builds BA flat out can't deal with.

Yeah, I read his reports. I feel his opponents made some mistakes, but hats off to Kenny for sure. His list just has a lot of points of failure (due to randomness, not Kenny failing), but any BA list is going to.

I dunno, not much sympathy for BA. Its your turn in the cycle, when you hit you'll be better than SM or DA. Right now you have options (run as something else PA, or ally in other PA 'dexs). This is all pretty predictable and expected after all.

Exactly. BA have been my primary since the second ed box set and we've had very little to complain about over the years. It's just our turn in the cycle so I'm not overly concerned. People complain about this book like it just came out yesterday. If that were the case I'd be the first in line to knock it. Really though, it's not a lackluster book (I defy even Martel to find one single good example of someone saying it was lackluster when it first came out), it's just an OLD book. The edition change has caused our points to be too high and has nerfed some of our main strengths. That's a bit annoying but not really anything to rage over. Considering we've had one of the stronger books through many editions I can handle being on the down side for a little bit.

GW seems committed to updating everyone during this edition and I'm sure our new book will be awesome. Some times my fellow BA complain so hard it's almost like the secretly WANT the book to be bad. Meh ...

2 Stormravens
Terminators TH/SS
Mephiston
Furioso with Talons
3 Assault Squads

Fairly similar to what I run. People on the net will have you believe that Storm Ravens are falling from the skies like rain and that dreadnaughts explode automatically the second they hit the table but I've not found that to be true. Tau are a tough match up for this list as are Eldar, but they are tough for everyone right now. Over all though it's still a fun list to play IMO.


EDIT:

I've also been using them as allies for my DA. A squad of jump pack DC with a Sang Priest makes a great escort for Ravenwing and since the DA flyers are kind of weak it's nice to be able to bring a Storm Raven. Anyone else running them as allies? I'd be curious to hear your ideas.

Codex BA was very nasty in the 5th meta. However, other lists were able to adapt to it. At the same time, it was never better than the IG or the SW, and the GK and Necrons quickly made everyone forget about it.

Even in 5th, the BA had many of the problems they do now. Poor model count. Bad internal balance. In fact, the magical 5th edition vehicle damage table and razorbacks is really what made my BA winners. If left to ASM spam, I would never have gotten over the IG and SW hump.

Compare to the lack of ability to adapt to Taudar without bringing unkillable deathstars.

However, other lists were able to adapt to it. At the same time, it was never better than the IG or the SW, and the GK and Necrons quickly made everyone forget about it.

Not sure what you're looking for from the book really. That statement is true of almost every codex. Plus, GW even stated that 'Crons was really written with 6th in mind anyway so of course it crushed the fifth ed meta ...

Even in 5th, the BA had many of the problems they do now. Poor model count. Bad internal balance.

Agree to disagree. I mean yeah, they had limited model count but not excessively so considering what they could bring. I found the internal balance to be excellent and the one possible thing that's actually improved a bit in 6th. I agree the points in 6th are way TOO much now, but did not feel that way in 5th.

In fact, the magical 5th edition vehicle damage table and razorbacks is really what made my BA winners. If left to ASM spam, I would never have gotten over the IG and SW hump.

So you had to use a different tool to overcome a different style opponent AND you had that tool readily available to you? I know books that would have killed for that type of flexibilty. Again, not sure what you're after. To be clear, I'm not trying to be a jerk or rag on you or anything. It's just that I don't see some of this as issues.

Compare to the lack of ability to adapt to Taudar without bringing unkillable deathstars.

Right, but again, that's true of EVERY book right now. What answer does the new CSM book have for Taudar? What about the brand new DA book? Demons get smacked around pretty hard by them as well. Like I said, just not clear what you're after. Things being too points restrictive is definitely (imo) a legit complaint that is particular to the BA book right now, but really, a lot of your other comments are true of many of the books right now.

I thought daemons could hang with screamerstar shenanigans.

The internal balance of the BA codex is and was awful. SG and VV have always been bad, as has most of the special characters. As were bikes in 5th. And tac squads.

Most BA units were actually a bit overcosted in 5th. Especially compared to IG and SW and later GK and Necrons. But most BA players ended up avoiding the trap units and doing well anyway.

What I'm saying is that the BA really weren't a QUALITY codex, they just got to take discounted razorbacks that had a magical damage table that protected them. Most other BA schemes, including mass decent of angels were easily handled by good players. 5th was the beginning of the end for low model count lists with middling resiliency, and now 6th is the nail in the coffin.

I'd say this book (from what you guys have said) is the biggest flaw with how GW does new editions. BA used to be amazing when they came out in 5th. Top of the charts. Now they're at the very bottom?! Sure, a great player can win with them. But an average player looking for a fun game? Not likely. The BA book didn't change, but the main rules cleaned enough house to make them go from top to bottom. This shouldn't happen. Of course, all books should be as close to even as possible, but that's another matter.

BA were below SW and IG even on the day they dropped in 5th. And it took the BA players in my area a while to figure out Orks. And then they got kicked in the power-jimmies by the GK.

What you're saying is actually true of 3rd edition BA. Totally broken from day one and never really surpassed. 5th edition BA took plasma to face and died like little bitches just like they do now.

Huh. I ran the roost with BA in fifth (I bandwagoned), and got bored and sold them cuz they were too good. I switched to BT afterwards and had loads more fun (the holy hand grenade had nothing to do with my decision, I swear). I made that jump well before 6th though. Never had an issue smoking IG in my area.

IG, properly constructed, had the firepower to blow BA off the table. Descent of angels didn't really help, because you were in perfect battle cannon formation. Again, you were praying for terrain to save you. Weak sauce.

What I'm saying is that the BA really weren't a QUALITY codex, they just got to take discounted razorbacks that had a magical damage table that protected them. Most other BA schemes, including mass decent of angels were easily handled by good players. 5th was the beginning of the end for low model count lists with middling resiliency, and now 6th is the nail in the coffin.

I agree that 6th beat book up kind of bad but a lot of codexes struggle through edition changes. Again, most of your complaints could be equally applied to nearly ALL of the other books but you're talking about BA as though they were some kind of unique failure or something ...

Also, while razorspam was quite good, you can find a myriad of examples all over the net of people having success without that build both last edition and this one so I'm not sure that criticism is 100 percent valid.

I thought daemons could hang with screamerstar shenanigans.

Right up until SMS and marker lights eliminate the cover saves and/or ignore LOS to Fateweaver and whomever is holding the Grimoire ...

I can almost guarantee their successes were not against optimized IG, SW, Necron, or GK. BA pay a premium to bring FNP and in 5th plasma cut straight through it. Psyrifleman doubled BA out. The solution was to hide behind AV 11.

The BA are somewhat unique in that they put armies out that get tabled in 2-3 turns by Tau/Eldar. It's only happened to me once, but I've seen it several times.

BA uniqueness is their very, very low model count if you use an average cross section of the codex. You have to avoid 2/3 of the codex like the plague to field a reasonably sized force. This was true even in 5th.

I can almost guarantee their successes were not against optimized IG, SW, Necron, or GK. BA pay a premium to bring FNP and in 5th plasma cut straight through it. Psyrifleman doubled BA out. The solution was to hide behind AV 11.

Some of them were in fact GTs against those very armies. GK and Newcrons were definitely bad matchups but again, how does that make the BA different from any other codex that wasn't GK or 'Crons?

The BA are somewhat unique in that they put armies out that get tabled in 2-3 turns by Tau/Eldar. It's only happened to me once, but I've seen it several times.

Soooo .... just like everyone else? With the exception of massive horde type armies I've seen Taudar table pretty much everyone that fast.

BA uniqueness is their very, very low model count if you use an average cross section of the codex. You have to avoid 2/3 of the codex like the plague to field a reasonably sized force. This was true even in 5th.

I found in 5th that I could field decent sized armies and still use a good variety of untis so YMMV on that. I mean yeah, they were still smaller on average than everyone else's, but when you're accuratley DSing multiple freaking LRs in someone's face quantity suddenly doesn't matter as much. lol

Again, that has been taken to an extreme in 6th edition to the point that yes, I would agree that the army is now TOO expensive to be reliably used but that's the fault of the edition not the codex. Literally everyone of your other complaints at this point can be summed up as "I don't like our book becuase it's not 'Crons Greyknights or Space pups" so I guess I'm just not sure what you're wanting out of it. Actually, yeah, let's do that. What DO you want out of it?

I'll start with jump packs that don't cost 15 pts a model for the iconic DC. Maybe some HTH tech that doesn't revolve around being the assaulting party? Maybe some special characters that aren't hideously overcosted?

IG and SW were also bad matchups, but manageable compared to 6th.

You weren't using decent of angels on LRs were you? If so, you're tossed out of the BA club for not reading the rule. DSing LR was only good for getting them killed to mishaps and dropping them into melta range for your opponent.

Once the shock and awe of the BA wore off, IG and SW and even vanilla marines learned how to abuse the low model count and make it far harder than people make it out to be. 5th edition was not a glory time for the BA, they were a contender, nothing more.

Here are some changes I would like to see

DC jump packs down to 3-5 pts per model,

for a chapter tactics- BA FnP saves are always made on a 4+ like back when.
and
all BA chain CC weapons have the rending special quality.

price reduction all around to about the price of C:SM pts/model, and a MAJOR price reduction on sang guard. and I would be quite happy, (also 5-10 pt reduction on jumppacks for priests maybe)

Here are some changes I would like to see

DC jump packs down to 3-5 pts per model,

for a chapter tactics- BA FnP saves are always made on a 4+ like back when.
and
all BA chain CC weapons have the rending special quality.

price reduction all around to about the price of C:SM pts/model, and a MAJOR price reduction on sang guard. and I would be quite happy, (also 5-10 pt reduction on jumppacks for priests maybe)

I haven't thought much about specific point levels but I basically agree with most of this. In fact, I'd actually be happy with a re-pointed version of the exact same book we have now. Maybe add a second cheaper flyer (just don't call it the "Blood Talon" lol) but that's about it. I'm happy with our book, just NOT at the current points levels.