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This could be really broken or not at all effective, but I'd like to see everything stay the same, but drop the prices and take the Vanguard Vets Heroic Intervention rule (minus the part about not having ICs attached) and make it our "chapter tactic" or just an army wide special rule.

Combined with DOA, Blood Angels would become amazing deep strikers and would actually make it into close combat as intended.

You would still have to take ranged fire support or fliers of your own to crack transports and fight enemy flyer spam, but against any conventional list, it would at least be fun to play, an interesting game and would give you a much better chance at denting or wiping out your opponent

C:SM prices for all the regular marines.

Would love to see the C:SM treatment for Honor Guard given to Sanguinary Guard.

The same for C:SM command squads given to BA honor guards.

Two specials in a five man ASM squad would be nice at 17 pts a piece. 105 for two drop pod meltaguns anyone?

Expanding DoA to include a DAeathwing Assault would be nice as well.


I was having decent success with Drop Pod BA at the beginning of 6th, max out on bodies and take some priests. Till the Tau/Interceptors showed up.

 bocatt wrote:
This could be really broken or not at all effective, but I'd like to see everything stay the same, but drop the prices and take the Vanguard Vets Heroic Intervention rule (minus the part about not having ICs attached) and make it our "chapter tactic" or just an army wide special rule.

Combined with DOA, Blood Angels would become amazing deep strikers and would actually make it into close combat as intended.

You would still have to take ranged fire support or fliers of your own to crack transports and fight enemy flyer spam, but against any conventional list, it would at least be fun to play, an interesting game and would give you a much better chance at denting or wiping out your opponent

I don't think this will come to pass, its too broken to happen. I know that GW have produced some broken units but this would just take the biscuit way too much.

 bocatt wrote:
This could be really broken or not at all effective, but I'd like to see everything stay the same, but drop the prices and take the Vanguard Vets Heroic Intervention rule (minus the part about not having ICs attached) and make it our "chapter tactic" or just an army wide special rule.

Combined with DOA, Blood Angels would become amazing deep strikers and would actually make it into close combat as intended.

You would still have to take ranged fire support or fliers of your own to crack transports and fight enemy flyer spam, but against any conventional list, it would at least be fun to play, an interesting game and would give you a much better chance at denting or wiping out your opponent

So all BAs would take inq with servo skulls and get -2d6 on scater as long as they have jump packs ?

I don't want BA to be broken. But what rules could BA possibly get to even get into 2nd tier? They aren't giving marines a seer council/screamerstar, so BA will never be able to HTH those armies. So we are back to being SW and vanilla marines gimped brothers.

I still like my ideas :3. FnP on a 4+ would save me sooo many troops in my games. rending would be nice for our assault squads. the 4+ FnP helps them get into combat with fewer casualties, the rending helps them take out most things. ofc. I would perhaps like to see the option that crusader squads get of a hidden powerfist instead :3 with another CT equivalent of being fast (extra D6 on runs anyone? +3 to the run roll for jump pack units? OOO ignore terrain tests for jump pack units!) like something along the lines of WS CT,

I still remember my facepounder BA list in 5th. 5 melta sternguard in a pod, a storm raven with Lemartes, 5 DC with power weapons and jump packs and a ginsu-dread in the SR, a DS land raider with termies and a Libby in it, and two 5 man assault squads in pods (maybe it was 1). The sternguard podded in if my opponent had a strong unit on the table to kill, and the ASM pod came in if they didn't. The storm raven, LR and remaining pod came in from reserve. It was points denial until my army called the shots. I rarely lost with it (never, in fact, worst was draws) and won a few tournaments. Felt bad for a kid when ALL my stuff refused to come in and he spent three turns doing nothing except holding one objective and all my stuff arrived at the end of the game and mopped his stuff up, contesting his point (he had nothing to reach mine) as my sterns had already blown up his fast stuff. The game was over in twenty minutes with a victory for me from point denial/overkill on turn 6. It was abusive, and it wasn't how I wanted the game to go, just that nothing came in. Kid was a fantastic general though, usually beating most other players in the shop. Just couldn't compare to that dirty list. And yes, it was filthy. This was pre-Coteaz expecting me, so it had a time frame of awesomeness. Everything that dropped killed things quickly and efficiently. Again, guilty towards him having a boring game. Took second due to a tie against Orks though (would have had a win except lucky 6's against my LR with a missile launcher. That tie kept me from 1st, I had to take second in the tourney. Anyone thinking BA weren't top tier in 5th played poorly. That book WAS busted. Sad to see how it's failed against time.

No, it wasn't busted. That list you describe would have been countered by BA razor spam.

Sterns drop in, do their thing die.

Stormraven shows up, shoots once, dies.

Occupants are now on foot. Then they die.

I'm not sure how you avoided mishaping with the DS LR, but that was also a crap tactic with all the melta running around in 5th.

I army swapped in 5th several times and never lost to BA. They were not that great; only when people panicked. BA model count still sucked and your proposed list has the same achilles heel.

Must be great to argue against it on paper when it worked amazingly in practice.

I mainly argue against it because I ripped most lists like that to pieces. They just didn't work. The reserve rules in 5th were garbage and reserving significant points was a good way to get tabled. Which is what I suspect would have happened to that list a lot in my meta for 5th.

I also argue against it because the hordes of lemmings claiming how great the BA were in 5th. I suspect that many of these players were participating in a good deal of baby seal clubbing.

The BA were demonstrably inferior to 5th ed SW, IG, Necrons, and GK. Of the 5th ed codices released, that puts the BA firmly in the bottom half. The fact that they were better than 3rd ed and 4th ed codices is nothing to brag about.

Oh, and the Stormraven was almost unfieldable in 5th. I also demonstrated this for most of my BA and GK opponents. 200 pts is too much for an AV 12 SKIMMER. It eats every lascannon and goes boom.

What I like about BA (yes i have a BA army) is the uniqueness of them for example...
stormravens WERE unique to BA and GK
baal preadators look and are cool
Death company have been buffed due to new rage rule
lots of unique characters
Land raiders are dedicated transports! (i hope they keep this in the 6th edition codex when it is released in about 1-2 years time...probably...)

I'll have to agree here with Martel on the usability of a Storm Raven in 5th. Of course it could have been our meta, too. On top of everything it had a huge footprint.

We know the jump packs are way too expensive. That will change. We will also lose Heroic Intervention the way it is now. Some of the costs also must come down.

Seeing Codex DA and SM, I don't expect us to reach even upper 2nd tier. This edition just does not cater to melee or vehicle oriented armies.

Going with Naw here. I can't imagine the BA getting anything to separate themselves from the DA/vanilla pack at this point. At least with respect to the power codices.

Martel732 wrote:
Going with Naw here. I can't imagine the BA getting anything to separate themselves from the DA/vanilla pack at this point. At least with respect to the power codices.

This is true, anything we get will not be too out of line with the other marine codices. We will get some unique wargear, etc but we will not get anything completely different. So I don't see us getting 2++ on any of our units. The marine codex can only do it on one model for one turn and I bet BA will not even get that. The suggesions made so far are the most likely suggestions. In terms of Invuls, the best we can hope for is a 3++ on an eternal warrior character which I hope can join squads.

I am also unhappy that in order to accomplish anything, my assault elements have to have a very expensive priest, otherwise they'll end up dead pretty quick. That becomes a problem as I would love to field 3 Fragnaughts in pods

I believe this edition is wasted for BA. We get our crappy update and soon afterwards we get 7th edition which changes the rules again. I can only hope it addresses the survivability of vehicles.

Pessimistic, am I?

No, BA being on the back end of the codex cycle bodes very poorly for the future I think. It's not just BA,though, its power armor lists in general.

Martel732 wrote:
No, BA being on the back end of the codex cycle bodes very poorly for the future I think. It's not just BA,though, its power armor lists in general.

Trouble is, we'll get our codex last this edition, it will turn out to be really good and then they will release 7th ed and we'll be rubbish again. I bet you any money.

If that's even true. I honestly don't see how the BA theme is going to work this edition at all.

 DarthOvious wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, BA being on the back end of the codex cycle bodes very poorly for the future I think. It's not just BA,though, its power armor lists in general.

Trouble is, we'll get our codex last this edition, it will turn out to be really good and then they will release 7th ed and we'll be rubbish again. I bet you any money.

no, we will probably get ours before space wolves.

I wouldn't bet on that. We need it a lot more, but that's not really fair to the SW. It's amazing how much better the IG and SW translated to 6th. I may bitch a lot, but that's because I wants things to be fair.

I was unhappy with the new c:sm codex's changes. I would like to have seen the quality of marines come up, not their cost go down. What id like to see for the BAs:

Chapter Tactics
FF needs to be standard. Keep DoA. Heroic intervention for all BAs might be a bit much. Letting Command squads and Sang Guard also have it would I think be enough. So long as BA ICs could benefit from it as well, when they join those units.

HQs
Close combat oriented army's really need big bad ass ICs. For shooty army's a buff-mander is more useful. To that end id like to see master crafted returned as an optional upgrade for ICs. Im not a big fan of the Sanguinor either, and wouldnt be pained to see him go. I second the idea of letting DC Tycho get into a DC unit. Dante and Meph's power weapons may not really need to be changed dramatically from the regular stat line. Just add in shred or fleshbane, etc.

Elites
Sang Priests FNP should be 4+. Instead of FC they should give out Hate. Against csm's it should be upgraded to PE. And make thier personal FNP save 3+.

Terminators should be able to get 2 heavweapons per 5 men. With the two HWs tac termies would actualy be useful again. The sarge should be able to change out to LCs, SS & TH, or SS and relic blade. The SS would let the sarge tank wounds.

Cheaper assault termies. The TH SS upgrade would still cost more but overall a lower price for assault termies. I think they need the price reduction because they cant assault out of reserves anymore and the cost of a LR is huge.

Troops
Tacticals should get the commander trait that gives a unit regular (5+) FNP when within 3" of a objective. They should also get PE against enemy units that are within 3" of an objective. THis would make them good at thier primary task, taking and holding objectives.

Assault Marines should get a new USR I just created called Grenadiers. Grenades were made for assaulting and are important to many aspects of assault. Therefor i think special grenade use would be helpful. This ability allows those units, but not ICs that join the unit, to use double the normal allowance of grenades. They can use up to two krak grenades in hand to hand and 2 MBs for the sarge. When throwing grenades they could also throw two as opposed to the normal one. This would improve their chances against MCs and walkers in hth.

Death Co are adequately priced and deadly as is. Id just say cheaper JPs and weapons. Id say just nocking 5 points off weapons would help, and reducing JPs to 10 would be about right.

Heavy Support
Devastators should get Tank Hunter. Only marines with heavy weapons though.

As for vehicles id say a little cheaper. Keeping them fast is fluffy and unique.

I just hope we get to keep the physic hoods man. Those things are baddass.

 raiden wrote:
I just hope we get to keep the physic hoods man. Those things are baddass.

Why would you think we would lose them? Did C:SM librarians lose them? They are not nearly as badass as they were in 5th.

Psychic hoods do squat against most powers I care about.

Well I completely diened a deamons pink horrors powers and shooting all game long thanks to good ole mephy. So. I think they are rather helpful


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can stop any power (Unless this was changed) that any model passes withing the AoE

That's the old psychic hood. Hoods have a smaller bubble and modify your Deny the Witch roll.

So the BA ones have been changed? Where is it in the BrB?

Its in the FAQ:

Page 46 – Librarians, Psychic Hood.
Ignore this paragraph – refer to the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook.

I really need to print out the FaQs. Heh. Oh well. Didn't do that much in the game XD. As they were out of range half of it

You technically can't legally play the BA without the FAQs on hand for the game.