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Tycho wrote:

I thought daemons could hang with screamerstar shenanigans.

Right up until SMS and marker lights eliminate the cover saves and/or ignore LOS to Fateweaver and whomever is holding the Grimoire ...

What? Screamerstar will crush Tau. Cover saves are irrelevant, the Grimoire is hidden in the unit, and Fateweaver will be off the table half the time and out of range the other half.

Dante should be EW. Get rid of the lame ass Sanguinor.


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Thud wrote:

Tycho wrote:

I thought daemons could hang with screamerstar shenanigans.

Right up until SMS and marker lights eliminate the cover saves and/or ignore LOS to Fateweaver and whomever is holding the Grimoire ...

What? Screamerstar will crush Tau. Cover saves are irrelevant, the Grimoire is hidden in the unit, and Fateweaver will be off the table half the time and out of range the other half.

That's what I thought, but didn't want to argue it.

Don't get rid of the sang, he is a badass, he just needs a re-work.


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but yes I also agree dante needs EW. if calgar gets it the 1100 yr old master dante should as well :/

Tycho wrote:
Right up until SMS and marker lights eliminate the cover saves and/or ignore LOS to Fateweaver and whomever is holding the Grimoire ...

Its not that easy. The Grimoire holder is usually in the middle of a squad and will LoS the wounds off. Fatey will be spending as much time off the board as possible (since his reroll works when hes not on the board)

 raiden wrote:
Don't get rid of the sang, he is a badass, he just needs a re-work.

Re-work is an understatement.

I took a bunch of rarely seen BA units in a silly hodgepodge army to my local club yesterday, including The Sanguinor, and it was just sad. Really, really sad.

I think BA still have a couple of good builds. The builds will have bad match ups, but hey, it''s an old codex in an edition which doesn't favour MEQ.
Sadly, all of them involve running minimal troops that hide for most of the game (reserves, transports, LOS blocking terrain).

I think the one build that has the most potential is the BA Fear circus. 3x Podded Fear Furioso Librarians, 2x Fear Librarians. When it works, it's broken, lol'ing Riptides of the table turn 1.

Of course, doesn't work vs Fearless opponents. If only GW would get around to FAQ'ing how Iron Arm and Endurance work with Furioso Dreads. In the meantime, there's Telepathy.

Unless, of course, your opponent sets up with enough room to fall back.

One thing that I've found surprises people that only BA can do:

Jump pack units with plasma guns... possibly deep striking!

No other SM army can give their assault marines plasma guns.

It can be very surprising for your enemy especially since BA are rarely used these days so people are unfamiliar with them. Dev Cents will hate you

I also am highly in-favor of deep striking aggressively with BA. As it is this is an army that has the odds stacked against it. Adopting extreme and, as a result, unexpected manoeuvres through large scale DSing can tip the scale tactically. It just means that you'll either win big through the element of surprise or lose big. But if you are likely to lose anyways then why not go for a hail mary?

Deep striking wasn't good for the BA in 5th and probably isn't good now. BA just don't deliver enough firepower to make it effective.

Martel732 wrote:
Deep striking wasn't good for the BA in 5th and probably isn't good now. BA just don't deliver enough firepower to make it effective.

Probably = Didn't try it.

Try it. Use mass plasma. Have multiple units supporting each other. Above all else: go balls deep. Act like a coward using DS and you'll die like a coward.


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The core concept is that you're outclassing the enemy so strongly in one phase of the game, the movement phase, that it will spill over into other parts.

It is the same concept utilized by Tau armies except they do so in the shooting phase.

There are units in the BA book that can be hidden easily enough that are also tough enough to ensure T1 survival (eg. Mephiston).

Again - this is BA. They necessitate a balls-to-the-wall approach to overcome the disadvantaged state of their codex. Play Tau if you want something calmer.

I personally haven't tried it, but I've had it used against me. The sounds of plasma honor guard dying to my generic old ASM is like old 5th ed music to my ears.

BA have model count problems out the wazoo. Fielding a bunch of plasma goobers is not the solution. Too many lists can just accept your damage and then crush you on the subsequent turn.

 raiden wrote:
Here are some changes I would like to see

DC jump packs down to 3-5 pts per model,

for a chapter tactics- BA FnP saves are always made on a 4+ like back when.
and
all BA chain CC weapons have the rending special quality.

price reduction all around to about the price of C:SM pts/model, and a MAJOR price reduction on sang guard. and I would be quite happy, (also 5-10 pt reduction on jumppacks for priests maybe)

Agree with most of this but the rending. 3 st5 rending on pretty much all our assault marines would be pretty broken if we also got a price reduction... then again, shuriken weaponary...


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EW on dante, extra 2w on sanguinor and EITHER a 4++ or ap 2 strike at initiative weapon for mephy. Oh and the option of taking astorath and lemartes without packs...


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Dc tycho actually being able to join the dc would be nice too...

How is HTH rending broken, but the Eldar get to have ranged rending on everything?

Ninjaed I see.

Going out on a limb here: you'd have to have so pimpin HTH tropos for them to even begin to breach the "broken" event horizon in 6th.


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Get rid of Sanguinor. He's stupid and useless.

It'd be broken if you spam it. 40-60 guys with rending and a point reduction. So say 1k points for 60guys (16pts each plus 4 vet sarge upgrades for 10pts) with rending (running naked). Rending would mean they can deal with anything without support. Rending is what makes necron wraiths so fearsome in combat, without it they would be meh, plus you can only get 18 wraiths in a single FOC. We would be able to get 60 in troops, 30 in elites, 30 in fast attack, and 10 in HQ. That would be crazy amount of rending!


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Yeh - Sanguinor is pants. But more wounds would definitely help him out, either that or IC status.

Rending wouldn't make any change in the meta, as marines can already suplex Tau and Eldar in HTH. But they can't get there. It wouldn't do that much to Daemons, either. Marines need more survivability, not new fancy attacks that cost more points but accomplish nothing.

after playing some space wolves... I want instead of the rending, or added to that all ASM squads to have counter-attack ....

Martel732 wrote:
Rending wouldn't make any change in the meta, as marines can already suplex Tau and Eldar in HTH. But they can't get there. It wouldn't do that much to Daemons, either. Marines need more survivability, not new fancy attacks that cost more points but accomplish nothing.

There are more armies than just Eldar, Tau and Deamons. Rending would make marines insane against TEQ, MEQ, MCs, and tanks with a rear av of 11+, hell - they could glance raiders and monoliths to death rather than simply relying on a sarges mbs.
But yes - more survivability is the first port of call not fancy new attacks, which is why I don't agree with rending. Whether you believe it would give little advantage or not, GW would still see it as a big upgrade and fail to drop the points! I agree that 4+ fnp is key, as well as a point reduction. It would also help if BA got +1I on the charge (like we used to with fc). Counter attack to jp models would definitely help too, especially the dc.
So CH BA:
When assaulting all BA recieve +1 Initiative. Furthermore all models equipped with a jp recieve the counter attack USR.
All BA models who are affected by the Feel No Pain USR, whether inbuilt into their rules, or provided by a piece of equipment, recieve a 4+ Feel No Pain save.

TBF I think the above would go a long way to solving the issue and would be a temporary 'fix', if used now.

We already pay extra for the privilage of fast tanks and for the equipment that givea fnp so these have nothing to do with CT as CT are free, so if GW therefore say 'well you have fast tanks and fnp to make up for a lack of CT', I think I will rage quit the game.

It was one of the best Codexes in 5th Ed. It just didn't make the transition into 6th Ed all that well.

It's this edition, not the Codex that is at fault. The BA will get a new Codex soon enough.

By the end of 5th, the Necron, IG, GK, and Space Wolves were all better than BA. Of the armies that actually GOT 5th edition codices, the BA were actually one of the worst. It's just that they were up against a lot of 3rd and 4th codices as well. Now that those are being purged out, we see how poorly written the codex is. Yeah, 6th edition didn't help at all, but the transition to hard core shooting codices with competitively costed Xenos is what really did it.


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Poly Ranger wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Rending wouldn't make any change in the meta, as marines can already suplex Tau and Eldar in HTH. But they can't get there. It wouldn't do that much to Daemons, either. Marines need more survivability, not new fancy attacks that cost more points but accomplish nothing.

There are more armies than just Eldar, Tau and Deamons. Rending would make marines insane against TEQ, MEQ, MCs, and tanks with a rear av of 11+, hell - they could glance raiders and monoliths to death rather than simply relying on a sarges mbs.
But yes - more survivability is the first port of call not fancy new attacks, which is why I don't agree with rending. Whether you believe it would give little advantage or not, GW would still see it as a big upgrade and fail to drop the points! I agree that 4+ fnp is key, as well as a point reduction. It would also help if BA got +1I on the charge (like we used to with fc). Counter attack to jp models would definitely help too, especially the dc.
So CH BA:
When assaulting all BA recieve +1 Initiative. Furthermore all models equipped with a jp recieve the counter attack USR.
All BA models who are affected by the Feel No Pain USR, whether inbuilt into their rules, or provided by a piece of equipment, recieve a 4+ Feel No Pain save.

TBF I think the above would go a long way to solving the issue and would be a temporary 'fix', if used now.

We already pay extra for the privilage of fast tanks and for the equipment that givea fnp so these have nothing to do with CT as CT are free, so if GW therefore say 'well you have fast tanks and fnp to make up for a lack of CT', I think I will rage quit the game.

Maybe there are other codices, but the BA don't look so wretched against them. Not even the new Marines, because they just don't bring the pain like the big three.

I had a lot of fun in a recent game with an assault squad with 2 plasma guns, sgt with a plasma pistol, and a librarian (epistolary) with prescience and forewarning.

The plague marines had a bad day.

I didn't even need to enter H2H.

I also had a tac squad, devs with PC and a Baal pred.

Martel732 wrote:


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Get rid of Sanguinor. He's stupid and useless.

No chance, he is pretty much my favourite model. Back in 5th I thought he was great, although quite situational as his role is a big mean character killer. I remember the days where he could hand Logan his backside on a silver platter. Not anymore.

Sanguinor has a high pricetag for S5 T4 and buffs for a phase of the game that is not very important.

Martel732 wrote:
Sanguinor has a high pricetag for S5 T4 and buffs for a phase of the game that is not very important.

Tell Chaos Daemons that the assault phase isn't very important. Easy now with those sweeping generalizations.

A significant drop in price, or a serious boost in abilities, could always make the Sanguinor relevant again. I think he needs to be kept. He is one of the coolest characters as far as fluff goes in the dex.


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Martel732 wrote:
I personally haven't tried it, but I've had it used against me. The sounds of plasma honor guard dying to my generic old ASM is like old 5th ed music to my ears.

BA have model count problems out the wazoo. Fielding a bunch of plasma goobers is not the solution. Too many lists can just accept your damage and then crush you on the subsequent turn.

How is trying to make an elite army (low models + solid stats/weapons), which marines (esp. BA) are, less elite by using them with underwhelming weaponry going to help anything?

Every time I've faced Blood Angels I've won. Though they always manage to wreck several of my tanks it's really the Veterans behind them that murder them.

So, Blood Angels aren't too good for rushing Gunlines even if in transports. They'll get there and do damage but they also open themselves up to the angry defenders. I could see Stormraven Spam being a problem if the dice were against me.

Other than that.. they are just marines that suck at shooting. At least to me as an IG player.

Martel732 wrote:
Sanguinor has a high pricetag for S5 T4 and buffs for a phase of the game that is not very important.

In this edition yes, but last edition he was great. Don't forget his 3++ and Eternal Warrior and in last edition also he was ignoring armour saves and stiking at an immense initiative. This edition he is certainly overcosted for what he does, but thats because he is no longer ignoring armour saves and is only AP3. To make him AP2 would require remodelling him with an axe but then he strikes last so loses his intiative advantage.

Martel732 wrote:
By the end of 5th, the Necron, IG, GK, and Space Wolves were all better than BA. Of the armies that actually GOT 5th edition codices, the BA were actually one of the worst. It's just that they were up against a lot of 3rd and 4th codices as well. Now that those are being purged out, we see how poorly written the codex is. Yeah, 6th edition didn't help at all, but the transition to hard core shooting codices with competitively costed Xenos is what really did it.

When BA book came there was lot of whining about how overpowered it was and how gross Mephiston is. Every subsesquent codex then out-competed them...

Well we will probably be the lasf codex this time so prepare for a lot of whining from our opponents

Backfire wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
By the end of 5th, the Necron, IG, GK, and Space Wolves were all better than BA. Of the armies that actually GOT 5th edition codices, the BA were actually one of the worst. It's just that they were up against a lot of 3rd and 4th codices as well. Now that those are being purged out, we see how poorly written the codex is. Yeah, 6th edition didn't help at all, but the transition to hard core shooting codices with competitively costed Xenos is what really did it.

When BA book came there was lot of whining about how overpowered it was and how gross Mephiston is. Every subsesquent codex then out-competed them...

Never heard any whining from SW or IG.


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 DarthOvious wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sanguinor has a high pricetag for S5 T4 and buffs for a phase of the game that is not very important.

In this edition yes, but last edition he was great. Don't forget his 3++ and Eternal Warrior and in last edition also he was ignoring armour saves and stiking at an immense initiative. This edition he is certainly overcosted for what he does, but thats because he is no longer ignoring armour saves and is only AP3. To make him AP2 would require remodelling him with an axe but then he strikes last so loses his intiative advantage.

I thought he was very overcosted even in 5th. He dies to boltguns, or even lasguns.

Sanguinor is, and as always been, utter trash.

I don't want him to disappear though, as he's not only one of my favourite models in the game, but also far and away the best paint job I've ever done.

I've had great luck against every Daemon list but Screamer Star. Mephiston is an absolute beast in that matchup.

I agree with everything that has been said about the codex - its the sad, painful truth.

There are very few competitive builds at all for BA, and those that are usually don't work in a TAC environment.

Lucarikx