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Bullockist wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


I don't see the logic here. If this reasoning held, can you imagine what football would be like?

This is why in all forms of football there are things like huddles, scrums and groups of 4 men standing in front of a goal holding their balls.

And don't forget the tight ends and wide receivers.

 AesSedai wrote:
I don't know how constructive it is to to compare the modelling/painting miniature hobby to drinking and drugs. It just seems like a ridiculously bad argument, so I'm unsure why it has come up again and again in this thread. Obviously his parents would be thinking more along the lines of an instrument, a foreign language, exercise/ a sport, traditional art, etc.

Drinking to excess comes up a lot because it's the only thing the 'average' person spends a similar amount of time and money on... especially a young 'average' person. And once you start talking about one chemically altered state, it seems to make sense to bring up other chemically altered states.

Musical instruments and traditional art are nice... IF you have the talent. A foreign language? That's what classes (or going abroad) is for; that's not a hobby, that's a chore. Sports... well, some of us aren't that fit. Drinking... that's something everyone can do.

If they don't mind being chemically altered. I do mind.

Let me just put it out there: traditional art is never about talent. It's about practice and dedication. Drawing and painting are skills. Some learn it faster than others but you have to learn it still. So if you want to take up drawing or painting, don't use the excuse "I have no talent for such thing".

This is me speaking as an art teacher. Frustrates me how people using having no talent as an excuse to pick up something they're interested in, when I have taught people who never knew how to draw in their life and saw vast improvement after 10 sessions.

Anyway, my parents never bothered me with wargaming, but they never supported it. Sure, they're amazed by what I can make with a few scrap materials and that I can paint really REALLY small details, but they haven't been like "hey I want to buy you new miniatures to paint" or whatever.

Now that I took up archery and boxing, they're casually hinting on how much is a bow or boxing gloves or a heavybag.

 Vulcan wrote:
Sports... well, some of us aren't that fit. Drinking... that's something everyone can do.

There's a ton of people who do sports that aren't that fit.. I personally play rugby. Of course, that means that I also do quite a bit of the second bit there

I always spout this little number whenever someone remarks that my hobby is childish/purile:

Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.

-C S Lewis

 heartserenade wrote:
Let me just put it out there: traditional art is never about talent. It's about practice and dedication. Drawing and painting are skills. Some learn it faster than others but you have to learn it still. So if you want to take up drawing or painting, don't use the excuse "I have no talent for such thing".

This is me speaking as an art teacher. Frustrates me how people using having no talent as an excuse to pick up something they're interested in, when I have taught people who never knew how to draw in their life and saw vast improvement after 10 sessions.

This with guitar, too. Practice makes players, not talent.

And painting wargaming miniatures, for that matter :-p

 slowthar wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Let me just put it out there: traditional art is never about talent. It's about practice and dedication. Drawing and painting are skills. Some learn it faster than others but you have to learn it still. So if you want to take up drawing or painting, don't use the excuse "I have no talent for such thing".

This is me speaking as an art teacher. Frustrates me how people using having no talent as an excuse to pick up something they're interested in, when I have taught people who never knew how to draw in their life and saw vast improvement after 10 sessions.

This with guitar, too. Practice makes players, not talent.

And painting wargaming miniatures, for that matter :-p

I don't know, I'd say predisposition does add some element to a person's ability at a particular activity, in my opinion a person needs a particular set of 'brain wiring' that can't be gained by practice, to truly excel at something. I find it quite difficult to explain so bear with me.

Example
I can practise for years to become a very skilled pianist, but there is a certain mindset you need to compose a really inspiring piano concerto. So while I might be a very good pianist, who can, given sheet music, perfectly reproduce most concertos, without that special ' musical mindset' my own compositions would be rather lacklustre, although technically very good, creatively they might lack that 'pizazz'.

 Leigen_Zero wrote:
I always spout this little number whenever someone remarks that my hobby is childish/purile:

Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.

-Lewis Carrol

I thought it was C. S. Lewis who said that?

 Hordini wrote:

 Leigen_Zero wrote:
I always spout this little number whenever someone remarks that my hobby is childish/purile:

Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.

-Lewis Carrol

I thought it was C. S. Lewis who said that?

It was, but I always get the two mixed up, there's a 'C' and a 'Lewis' in both names

 Leigen_Zero wrote:

 slowthar wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Let me just put it out there: traditional art is never about talent. It's about practice and dedication. Drawing and painting are skills. Some learn it faster than others but you have to learn it still. So if you want to take up drawing or painting, don't use the excuse "I have no talent for such thing".

This is me speaking as an art teacher. Frustrates me how people using having no talent as an excuse to pick up something they're interested in, when I have taught people who never knew how to draw in their life and saw vast improvement after 10 sessions.

This with guitar, too. Practice makes players, not talent.

And painting wargaming miniatures, for that matter :-p

I don't know, I'd say predisposition does add some element to a person's ability at a particular activity, in my opinion a person needs a particular set of 'brain wiring' that can't be gained by practice, to truly excel at something. I find it quite difficult to explain so bear with me.

Example
I can practise for years to become a very skilled pianist, but there is a certain mindset you need to compose a really inspiring piano concerto. So while I might be a very good pianist, who can, given sheet music, perfectly reproduce most concertos, without that special ' musical mindset' my own compositions would be rather lacklustre, although technically very good, creatively they might lack that 'pizazz'.

It'snot that I don't agree with you, but having skills as a pianist while not being able to make compositions of your own is not something that should be looked down upon. As opposed to people "born" with "talent" of creativity and they do not want to increase their skill because creativity is enough. That's how we get bs art.

"Oh, the splashes on this painting represents the suffering of my eternal soul. That's why it's called paaaainting."

The next time they come round, have all your gaming stuff gone from sight and set up a meth lab.

Be proud to tell them it's already turning a profit.

 heartserenade wrote:

 Leigen_Zero wrote:

 slowthar wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Let me just put it out there: traditional art is never about talent. It's about practice and dedication. Drawing and painting are skills. Some learn it faster than others but you have to learn it still. So if you want to take up drawing or painting, don't use the excuse "I have no talent for such thing".

This is me speaking as an art teacher. Frustrates me how people using having no talent as an excuse to pick up something they're interested in, when I have taught people who never knew how to draw in their life and saw vast improvement after 10 sessions.

This with guitar, too. Practice makes players, not talent.

And painting wargaming miniatures, for that matter :-p

I don't know, I'd say predisposition does add some element to a person's ability at a particular activity, in my opinion a person needs a particular set of 'brain wiring' that can't be gained by practice, to truly excel at something. I find it quite difficult to explain so bear with me.

Example
I can practise for years to become a very skilled pianist, but there is a certain mindset you need to compose a really inspiring piano concerto. So while I might be a very good pianist, who can, given sheet music, perfectly reproduce most concertos, without that special ' musical mindset' my own compositions would be rather lacklustre, although technically very good, creatively they might lack that 'pizazz'.

It'snot that I don't agree with you, but having skills as a pianist while not being able to make compositions of your own is not something that should be looked down upon. As opposed to people "born" with "talent" of creativity and they do not want to increase their skill because creativity is enough. That's how we get bs art.

"Oh, the splashes on this painting represents the suffering of my eternal soul. That's why it's called paaaainting."

Oh no, I'm not saying that being very skilled at piano, but unable to compose your own works, is a bad thing, all I'm saying is that of the 100 people who could paint just as well as michaelangelo, only one had that spark that made him michaelangelo

I also agree that creativity without skill can also be bad, but I guess it's one of those subjective things as to what is considered 'bad' art.
Mark Rothko's stuff sells for serious money, in my opinion it looks like someone couldn't decide what colour to paint the kitchen wall,

 Leigen_Zero wrote:

 slowthar wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Let me just put it out there: traditional art is never about talent. It's about practice and dedication. Drawing and painting are skills. Some learn it faster than others but you have to learn it still. So if you want to take up drawing or painting, don't use the excuse "I have no talent for such thing".

This is me speaking as an art teacher. Frustrates me how people using having no talent as an excuse to pick up something they're interested in, when I have taught people who never knew how to draw in their life and saw vast improvement after 10 sessions.

This with guitar, too. Practice makes players, not talent.

And painting wargaming miniatures, for that matter :-p

I don't know, I'd say predisposition does add some element to a person's ability at a particular activity, in my opinion a person needs a particular set of 'brain wiring' that can't be gained by practice, to truly excel at something. I find it quite difficult to explain so bear with me.

Example
I can practise for years to become a very skilled pianist, but there is a certain mindset you need to compose a really inspiring piano concerto. So while I might be a very good pianist, who can, given sheet music, perfectly reproduce most concertos, without that special ' musical mindset' my own compositions would be rather lacklustre, although technically very good, creatively they might lack that 'pizazz'.

A little from column A, and a little from column B, I think. Some people can hear a piece of music and just play it. Some people need sheet music, but can play it flawlessly. Both spend lots of time at the piano, though, and perform well. I took 3 years of piano as a child and just never "got it", despite practicing every day. I just couldn't read music and make the keys magically sound out the notes. In the end, I just started memorizing the keys for each song in order to play it. My sister, however, could look at the sheet music and play it without error. I was so glad to not have to take lessons anymore.

 Leigen_Zero wrote:

I also agree that creativity without skill can also be bad, but I guess it's one of those subjective things as to what is considered 'bad' art.

Yeah..have you seen "modern art" lately?? Many times it seems as if some of these guys have no skill AND no creativity (except in creating a BS story for the "meaning" of the piece)

My parents were glad I was wargaming because that meant I wasn't getting anyone knocked up.

My ex-girlfriend hated my hobby and was always like
"Why do you waste so much money on stupid toys."


She is now my ex-girlfriend.

 Lockark wrote:
I recently came out of the closest, and my Father blames it on my Wargameing because I was spending to much time around men.

People get weird ideas. In the end just do what's best for you. As long as you aren't putting yourself in finically trouble with your wargameing or the such, then you are alright.

This made me laugh, not at you or your situation, I think it's terrible that people can't be accepted for who they are, but for someone to blame wargaming for their kids sexuality is kind of drop dead hilarious. It must have been having to paint all those curvy Eldar butts hey?

you do this because it is fun for you,everybody needs a hobby or a place they can go and it is there own world,so guys collect cars,women collect shoes or clothes lol,just tell people thank you for your jab at me and this is something i love and enjoy,i had alot of stress in my life for a while,i went to see a head doctors lol,they said that having a hobby is very important,because we all need alone time and space to ourselves,to get away from the stress,you are fine,and find a group of people that love and enjoy what you do,that makes is more the better,you are fine i am 40 and i love to play so you are ok.

I know I'm coming in late to the discussion, but I wanted to put my $.02 in.

I have never found the old "it's cheaper than drugs" analogy to win over anyone opposed to gaming. You'll probably be best off just comparing it to model aircraft/ships or trains, combined with a strategy element like Risk or Chess. Or don't bother explaining it at all, and just ask them to accept your hobby for what it is. I have never personally understood why people are so afraid of games like wargames and RPGs. They inspire art, creativity, imagination and social skills. After all, you can't play Warhammer by yourself (or, not as easily I guess).

A caveat, however. When I was in college my situation closely mirrored yours. I was getting interested in wargaming and RPGs at the time (specifically Warzone/Chronopia, and Alternity), and my mom did not approve. She thought I spent way too much time playing games with "toys" and to this day she still doesn't really approve. Thing is, she was right. I spent most of my free time watching movies, painting miniatures, and playing Chronopia and/or video games. I wasn't doing my homework and my grades suffered. Eventually I stopped going to classes and finally dropped out. Things came to a head when she implied that I was having an "inappropriate relationship" with one of my brother's friends (he was 15 at the time, and we were playing Battletech on a weekly-ish schedule) and asked about another friendship, again implying that our relationship was somehow inappropriate. That was the breaking point, and we had it out in the family car while I was driving. She didn't talk to me for a couple of weeks at all, and I moved out of the house shortly after. The distance helped mend our relationship, but to this day she blames a lot on my "toys". Today I have a job and a family, and lots of responsibilities that keep me away from the table. That all has to come first, and I didn't understand that back then.

That being said, if you've got your life together the way you want it to be, and you're happy with it then let them know that this is your life. Just be prepared for the fallout. If you're still living with them be prepared for the "my house my rules" speech. If you can afford to move out on your own, then that might be an option. If you can show them that you're successfully living on your own without drowning in debt and/or living in squalor, they will be more likely to at least leave you alone regarding your strange little hobby with the tiny little men.

I tell 'em to stick it. Your out on your own (I think) and it's your life to live the way you want. My mother is very supportive of the hobby. She sees it as a creative outlet. And way to get me off the computer

Take a break. Put your stuff in a box. Several boxes. Explore something new. Photography. Weight Lifting. Triathlon. Mountain Biking. Whatever. Don't let your parents get you down.

The older you get, the more you realise that nobody knows what the hell they're doing or cares what you do anyway. I know it's hard to see from where you are atm with parents breathing down your neck, however..

Most people see this hobby as 'toys' as they can only relate it to their childhood when they played with toys.

I have a real issue with people who say we play with toy soldiers. We even joke about it ourselves because we are sometimes embarrassed... why? Screw that! You play with toy soldiers? That means...

They kick a leather sack around some grass and between sticks in the ground (football)
Make up gak in their head reading some ink on paper (books)
Plink strings on a wooden box (guitar/instruments)
Discuss irrelevance whilst inebriated and waste money every weekend (out drinking/partying)
Jump off of high objects (bungee/skydive)
Lift dull iron (weights) or run in aimless directions (running/jogging)
and so forth...

To turn the hobby around...

You game or paint miniatures (toy soldiers). Done, end of story. Most people who are open minded who have no experience in the hobby are generally curious and amazed at what I and others can and have done, and those who critique or mock quickly find themselves out of my environment (or me theirs).

The point is, anything can be made to be childish, it all comes down to what you focus on that makes you feel good whilst doing it. I'm 33, have 2 kids and a partner whilst studying full time. As long as everything else is taken care of, god help anyone who gets in my way during my personal 'free' time!

Advice to the OP, honestly just tell them to mind their own business, its not a bad thing to like wargaming.

I found from past experince that even my non wargaming friends like my paintjobs on my minis and my videos where I talk about wargaming and have even subscribed to my channel, and women don't really mind wargaming, and if they do they are probably just after your money

The only critism I had about the game and hobby was when I was still in school and one person decided to a douche and basically bully me on one of my pics on FB, in which case before I even started typing a reply, half of my school went right into his backside and so he quickly deleted all of his comments..

I suppose I am lucky to have good friends and now the only criticisms I get now is that my mother now thinks that GW prices are too high and that my dad does not like me going every weekend to my FLGS... But then again I could always go and start drinking adding myself as another fine specimen to the collection of binge-drinking/Broken Britain that the press always harp on about

I know's it's been said before, but it isn't like the only option apart from wargaming is getting hammered. Frankly I think it's more approriate to say "Painting and gaming with miniatures is better than sitting on my ass, browsing Netflix because I'm too indecisive to pick a movie, and too much of a commitment-phobe to pick a tv series and stick with it."

Anyway, you guys talk as if occasionally getting drunk and talking absolute horsegak with your good friends is a bad thing. Sure, it is a bad thing if you waste ridiculous amounts of money and damage your health doing it, but a couple of drinks, a couple hours dancing, and a couple good conversations once a week won't do you any harm at all.

The only reason I wargame (not model and paint) is the social aspect. I like the gaming, but I could take it or leave it. But when I game, I get to hang out with and make new friends. I've gone drinking with them a few times, the two are not mutually exclusive.

I wargame (and its affiliated activities), I play sports and work out, I drink, I do ballroom dancing, I go to concerts, music festivals, and cinema quite frequently, and in the last two years I've spent about eight months traveling. You're not defined by any one hobby.

feeder wrote:
Does your hobby interfere with your "real" life?

Probably way too much.

That hobby indirectly got me a job. That job made me meet many people (including my fiancée) and add 3 foreign languages to my curriculum...


Anyway... Wargaming is just a hobby among others : it's just like playing violin, golf, painting or collecting stamps.

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I know's it's been said before, but it isn't like the only option apart from wargaming is getting hammered. ...

It's just a rhetorical device, not to be taken literally. It's basically just giving critics some perspective. instead of seeing wargaming as negative, it's pointing them to something that might actually be potentially negative and allowing them to give it some further thought.

Balance is always hard to achieve, but always worth trying to achieve. I dropped out of wargames and painting models completely for about 20 years to devote more time to my family, work, and graduate studies. Now I have a Ph.D. from Columbia, two children, and a good marriage. My family is great, but I have to say, after all the bs involved in getting my degree, I'm seriously considering switching careers and shelving it.

When I got my doctorate, I decided to reward myself by buying a good paint set and some miniatures again. I still don't know exactly what career I'll be pursuing, other than my current role of Mr. Mom, but I've been very, very happy with the decision to go back to miniature painting / gaming. Perhaps if I'd kept more of my hobbies alive while I was working the grad school grind I wouldn't be so burned out with academia now?

What's the significance of a Columbian PhD?

It's one of the eight Ivy League universities in the United States? And New York's oldest university? And a phd is a graduate degree?

If you are doing something you enjoy and it is not interfering with the rest of your life and not effecting them in anyway then there shouldn't be any problem. It's your choice what you do at the end of the day. If you are earning money yourself, have your own place or are paying for your keep if you still live with them and are pulling your weight there isn't an issue. There are possibly things that they do that you do not agree with.

The problems arise if they are funding you, you aren't holding down a job or looking after yourself and it's the hobby that is getting in the way of these things. Then they are in a sound frame of mind to say, it's not doing you any good. Despite of how it makes you feel I can imagine, as a parent my self, they only have your best interest at heart.