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 Kain wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Kain wrote:

kingleir wrote:
Defender gets same amount of dice as attacker that way low psychic armies have a chance to both cast and deny any powers.

This is both incredibly silly and ineffective.

Silly because you get more dice just 'cause, ineffective because you need a six for each success they roll.

You'd need twelve dice on average to beat a simple WC 2 power.

Unless it's a withfire then suddenly you can start ignoring rocks being tossed and magical flames like they don't exist

"I reject the reality of this rock and replace it with my own."

*Giant bolder flies at your Carnifex*
*your Carnifex stares down bolder*
*Bolder becomes pebble*
*Pebble dinks of Carnifex*
*Carnifex charges forth and splatters psyker*

 Kain wrote:

kingleir wrote:
Defender gets same amount of dice as attacker that way low psychic armies have a chance to both cast and deny any powers.

This is both incredibly silly and ineffective.

Silly because you get more dice just 'cause, ineffective because you need a six for each success they roll.

You'd need twelve dice on average to beat a simple WC 2 power.

But it would let you shut down some of the enemy powers, which balances out builds based around one or two really good powers. Blocking everything that psykers do is no fun, but blocking one casting of invisibility can turn the game from frustrating to playable and shutting down even a fraction of the conjurations a daemon factory attempts can tilt the balance dramatically.

It also means that one or two psykers facing an army of daemons or something can actually use their powers, instead of getting shut down all the time because the enemy has four times as many warp charges.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Kain wrote:

kingleir wrote:
Defender gets same amount of dice as attacker that way low psychic armies have a chance to both cast and deny any powers.

This is both incredibly silly and ineffective.

Silly because you get more dice just 'cause, ineffective because you need a six for each success they roll.

You'd need twelve dice on average to beat a simple WC 2 power.

But it would let you shut down some of the enemy powers, which balances out builds based around one or two really good powers. Blocking everything that psykers do is no fun, but blocking one casting of invisibility can turn the game from frustrating to playable and shutting down even a fraction of the conjurations a daemon factory attempts can tilt the balance dramatically.

It also means that one or two psykers facing an army of daemons or something can actually use their powers, instead of getting shut down all the time because the enemy has four times as many warp charges.

It is true and I'm hoping that new codexes try to add more psychic defense.

I'm just not sure if it'd really do all that much because of how many god damn dice you need to cancel out even basic powers.

 Kain wrote:

kingleir wrote:
Defender gets same amount of dice as attacker that way low psychic armies have a chance to both cast and deny any powers.

This is both incredibly silly and ineffective.

Silly because you get more dice just 'cause, ineffective because you need a six for each success they roll.

You'd need twelve dice on average to beat a simple WC 2 power.

So if they are coming with a 30 WC daemon army and you have one or no psykers, you just have to take it or refuse a game?
If you get 30 dice to defend against their 30 dice atleast you have a chance to deny 1 or 2 of the 6 or 7 powers even when you need 3 times as many warpcharges.
Also if the daemons only get 3+d6 dice to defend against your 1 psyker, you also have a chance to cast successfully without them throwing 30 dice at your 1 power.

B-but I wanted to excessively throw dice like only an ork could (couldn't resist)

kingleir wrote:

 Kain wrote:

kingleir wrote:
Defender gets same amount of dice as attacker that way low psychic armies have a chance to both cast and deny any powers.

This is both incredibly silly and ineffective.

Silly because you get more dice just 'cause, ineffective because you need a six for each success they roll.

You'd need twelve dice on average to beat a simple WC 2 power.

So if they are coming with a 30 WC daemon army and you have one or no psykers, you just have to take it or refuse a game?
If you get 30 dice to defend against their 30 dice atleast you have a chance to deny 1 or 2 of the 6 or 7 powers even when you need 3 times as many warpcharges.
Also if the daemons only get 3+d6 dice to defend against your 1 psyker, you also have a chance to cast successfully without them throwing 30 dice at your 1 power.

I mean I can't really figure out a justification as to why you'd get the dice other than "game mechanics."

What about Tau and their Marker Light SPAM, do we limit the Number of Marker Lights?
Guard and their Artillery Pie SPAM, do we limit how many peices of Artillery they can bring.
Space Marines, de we limit how many Thunderfire Cannons they can bring?
Eldar and their Wave Serpent SPAM, do we limit how many they can bring?
Space Wolves and Long Fangs, do we Limit how many they can bring?

If we are going to limit War Charges, we need to do all of this to.

Once you start to put Caps on things it cascades.

Simple Limits like:
>Enforcing WYSIWYG
>Talking about the game before hand about possible limits. [I think this one will solve a lot of problems in the long run for most issues]. Don’t tell him that he cant play is “Daemon Factory” Army, but afterwords find out if he enjoyed the game. Odds are the first few times he will, but if he is a good player he soon won’t. This form of “Peer-Pressure”, but you might be surprised at how many players will only take out “Auto-Win” Armies Less and Less over time unless you are in an “Ultra Competitive Group”. If it TFG, then you will find that out quickly.

Borderline:
>Summoned Creatures Cant Summon more creatures.

Note: I belive in minimal house rules and I don’t think “Daemon Factories” will not be an issue with us, most of us are “Non-Competative Fluffy Players” and at least two were TFG at one time, including myself.

 Kain wrote:
I mean I can't really figure out a justification as to why you'd get the dice other than "game mechanics."

More psykers on the battlefield means more warp power available for everyone? Seems to make at least as much sense as having more power available for one psyker because there happen to be some other psykers from a totally different species fighting for the same side.

You could easily say that the more psykers there are in an area, the weaker the boundaries between the warp and reality are and the more power is available to draw on. It's not supported by the current background material, but neither is the shared power-pool thing.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I mean I can't really figure out a justification as to why you'd get the dice other than "game mechanics."

More psykers on the battlefield means more warp power available for everyone? Seems to make at least as much sense as having more power available for one psyker because there happen to be some other psykers from a totally different species fighting for the same side.

You could easily say that the more psykers there are in an area, the weaker the boundaries between the warp and reality are and the more power is available to draw on. It's not supported by the current background material, but neither is the shared power-pool thing.

Is it wrong if I miss when it was just ld tests on an individual model for their own spells?

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I mean I can't really figure out a justification as to why you'd get the dice other than "game mechanics."

More psykers on the battlefield means more warp power available for everyone? Seems to make at least as much sense as having more power available for one psyker because there happen to be some other psykers from a totally different species fighting for the same side.

You could easily say that the more psykers there are in an area, the weaker the boundaries between the warp and reality are and the more power is available to draw on. It's not supported by the current background material, but neither is the shared power-pool thing.

Oh I can justify the power dice, that system makes sense.

But where are the dispel dice coming from and why do the instantly scale to the amount of power dice used?

 Lobukia wrote:
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/warhammer-40k-7th-ed-video-bat-rep-daemons-vs-imperials/

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/26/warhammer-40k-video-bat-rep-7th-ed-eldar-vs-necrons/

Educate yourselves... see it at work... then tell me if the psychic phase is fine out of the box

2 games does not a decisive argument make, no matter who is playing them.

I think more games of 7th should be played before people decide to propose alterations to the rules.

That said, we have a precedent for limiting warp charges found in Warhammer Fantasy. All the major comp packets limit magic dice, and the tournaments that do not - from what I am told by the very experienced fantasy crowd around here - were just utterly dominated by armies with obscene levels of magic.

With the limit in place, those armies can still rock the magic phase, but don't just auto-win with it.

I'd be most happy to toss out Demonology as a whole and call it a day.

 Kain wrote:

kingleir wrote:

 Kain wrote:

kingleir wrote:
Defender gets same amount of dice as attacker that way low psychic armies have a chance to both cast and deny any powers.

This is both incredibly silly and ineffective.

Silly because you get more dice just 'cause, ineffective because you need a six for each success they roll.

You'd need twelve dice on average to beat a simple WC 2 power.

So if they are coming with a 30 WC daemon army and you have one or no psykers, you just have to take it or refuse a game?
If you get 30 dice to defend against their 30 dice atleast you have a chance to deny 1 or 2 of the 6 or 7 powers even when you need 3 times as many warpcharges.
Also if the daemons only get 3+d6 dice to defend against your 1 psyker, you also have a chance to cast successfully without them throwing 30 dice at your 1 power.

I mean I can't really figure out a justification as to why you'd get the dice other than "game mechanics."

Why would armies with no psykers get an extra D6?

The other thing to think about in the WH40k vs WHFB is from I Recall there are not a lot of S8+ AP3/2/1 avalible in WHFB.
Think about how much Rail-Guns/Las-Cannons/Pie is going to come the Summoner's or the Summoned Creature(s) way.

 Anpu42 wrote:
The other thing to think about in the WH40k vs WHFB is from I Recall there are not a lot of S8+ AP3/2/1 avalible in WHFB.
Think about how much Rail-Guns/Las-Cannons/Pie is going to come the Summoner's or the Summoned Creature(s) way.

In fantasy AP is modified by strength, so in practical terms there is actually A LOT of AP2 flying around.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
The other thing to think about in the WH40k vs WHFB is from I Recall there are not a lot of S8+ AP3/2/1 avalible in WHFB.
Think about how much Rail-Guns/Las-Cannons/Pie is going to come the Summoner's or the Summoned Creature(s) way.

In fantasy AP is modified by strength, so in practical terms there is actually A LOT of AP2 flying around.

I was talking about how easy it is to pull off Long Range [36"-48"] there is also Deep Striking units. Some armies can make sure every unit can have that.

I have come up with two basic ways to deal with them:
Space Maries: Sternguard with Plasma
Space Wolves with either 5x Plasma Cannons or 5x Las-Cannons.
Either one lead by an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor 93 pts (Psyocculum [BS 10 vs Psychic Powers], Power Armour; Null Rod [Squad Immune to Psychic Powers]; Plasma Pistol)

The reason the summoned daemon army is not really a factor, and didn't win that batrep isn't that hard to figure out, if you are using all your WC as daemons to summon more daemons your daemons aren't doing anything else.

So sure you get +200 points a turn but when you are removing 0 points from your opponents army the first two turns of the game, and they are likely dropping a few hundred points of yours a turn, are you really gaining anything?

The army list in the frontline report was 4 heralds with ML 3 and like 6 11 man horror squads, and some daemon princes. The daemon princes could assault stuff unsupported but the heralds and horrors are not assaulting, and are not shooting if they are just summoning, so you are looking at 3 models that are doing anything other than moving /summoning which means you are not affecting your opponents models at all.

In essence you get more points than your opponent, but your opponent goes untouched for a few turns. If you look at it as how many points is on the table for both sides each turn I do not think the daemon army is really seeing much of a gain when it will most likely be losing models and causing 0 casualties in return for 2 turns or so.

That and my Tactics would be to take out the 4 Herals Summoners.
Looking at unless I am missing something concentrated Firepower should make that realivly easy, yes the have relativly low T and and best and 3 ot the m have a 5++ save and 2 wounds each, unless I am reading it wrong.

Well the heralds will have a 2+ LoS. However armies fighting a daemon factory essentially get to "alpha" strike the daemon list for 2+ turns.

Has anyone noticed that 40+ WC lists have not been mentioned as a problem outside daemon factory? So why do people want to nerf something that is not the problem. It is EXACTLY like nerfing the shooting phase because the transcendent C'Tan hellstorm D weapons were broken...except the shooting phase was not new and so people didn't try doing that.

Can't see the forest for the trees? Eldar, Inquisition and maybe grey knights could even get close to 40 WC. Imagine 3 vortexs of doom in your deployment zone first turn or multiple invisible wave serpants and wraithknights.

kingleir wrote:
Can't see the forest for the trees? Eldar, Inquisition and maybe grey knights could even get close to 40 WC. Imagine 3 vortexs of doom in your deployment zone first turn or multiple invisible wave serpants and wraithknights.

even more reasons to cap them

Exactly, or atleast even out defending a bit. You won't block 1 spell with only d6 warp charges.

kingleir wrote:Can't see the forest for the trees? Eldar, Inquisition and maybe grey knights could even get close to 40 WC. Imagine 3 vortexs of doom in your deployment zone first turn or multiple invisible wave serpants and wraithknights.

xxvaderxx wrote:even more reasons to cap them

First, how exactly does limiting WC stop 1-2 invisibility from getting onto something? 2 invisibilities BTW are 12 WC dice for a 90% (6 dice) each...you are going to limit the pool to less than 12 WC dice?

Second, how exactly do you plan to roll up, deliver, and make me actually care about 3 vortex of doom? It is not the signature in a list that most of the units don't even roll on the table. You then have to somehow deliver the caster within 12" of a part of my deployment zone I would actually care if a small blast marker is in. Then a small blast marker will bounce around delivering a few wounds which I get to make cover saves against. Not to mention you need 15 WC to have a 50% each (and I get to butcher your casters as they are within rapid fire range or tarpit them in melee) or 27 WC to have 90% chance each. Honestly prescience is scarier on a manticore or a deathstrike missile launcher. Vortex of doom is actually kind of bad against anything not a parking lot and even then is easy to counter.

If you are talking about single FOC battleforged armies then;
Eldar will seriously struggle to break 20 WC with a full seer council they get 16+d6 WC. They will also find it unreliable to get even 1 invisibility in their list, 2 invisibility would be a serious difficulty. A single serpent or wraithknight with invisibility is not a huge deal as you just don't shoot the tough target to kill (you know there is the psyker to shoot right?) What is broken however is invisibility+fortune on a seer council, which a WC cap has no effect on and in fact promotes by limiting the deny the witch dice the other player has to chuck at it.

Inquisition will be lucky to break 5+d6 WC if single FOC.

GK are the only army you listed that might manage enough WC for a cap to matter. They will probably be ~20 WC though the reason GK are "good" in the psychic phase is that their psykers are good at shooting and/or melee and they can apply their WC where it matters. The sanctic chart is actually not great but not bad. There is nothing on it that even compares to a Tau or IG gunline and they have to get extremely close to use their very unreliable powers.

All of the psyker based lists could have put out vastly more damage and been more resilient if they had focused on ranged damage dealers than maxing out their WC pool. The only exceptions are chaos daemons and a very lucky seer council player rolling both fortune and invisibility which BTW will not be affected by a WC cap as they can use both under 12 WC very comfortably. What a WC cap does do is assure that a psyker based list can only ever manage the 2-3 broken abilities it has and witchfires will be meaningless powers you regret rolling up.