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xxvaderxx wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Here are a few reasons why I think it would be bad to put a limit on the max number of Warp Charges.
1] What would be a fair number?
2] Wound this be with or without the d6?
3] Lots of Warp Charges in an Army already have a bad side affect: Perils of the Warp!
4] Some of the Powers people are afraid of are going to quickly dain Warp Charges.
5] It punishes Psyker Armies just for showing up.
>Eldar
>Grey Knights
>Tzeentch Armies

Something will need to be done, Fantasy had the same issue, and even with power dice cap, it still sucked and VC dominated.

I agree we need a change. I think a cap would be fine. For those of you that say it would hurt the other non-summoning armies I would like to see how? Would a cap of 20 (or whatever) really be that bad? I remember 7th ed fantasy demon lists with over 30 casting dice that were so broken. I think the limit in 8th really toned that down. Yes magic is still super powerful but it doesnt make 500+ points of models a turn!

No warp charge cap! I earned those warp charges. I should be able to keep them. If there was a warp charge cap, what would be the motivation to go out and innovate and earn more warp charges?

No warp charge cap, I don't even play with psykers.

-IF- there is a problem with psychic powers its not warp charge, its just 1 power. Summoning. Maybe limit how many times it can be used, or how many models it makes, or change its cost. Give it a scaling cost so its 1 WC the first time its cast a round, 2 the second, 3 the third etc. Summoning more daemons makes the warp less stable in the area, something silly.

I thought malefic powers already had bonus chances of periling?

it's also worth noting that the frontline gaming report posted

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/warhammer-40k-7th-ed-video-bat-rep-daemons-vs-imperials/

the demon player did not win, it was a draw and the marine list was pretty mediocre.

Also, the guy rolled ridiculously well, someone mathed out what his rolls were and his first turn summoning rolls only had a 7% chance of getting those good of rolls, or in other words he rolled in the upper 93% of what he could roll, that's well above average.

i fail to see how this is broken in any way honestly.

blaktoof wrote:
No warp charge cap, I don't even play with psykers.

-IF- there is a problem with psychic powers its not warp charge, its just 1 power. Summoning. Maybe limit how many times it can be used, or how many models it makes, or change its cost. Give it a scaling cost so its 1 WC the first time its cast a round, 2 the second, 3 the third etc. Summoning more daemons makes the warp less stable in the area, something silly.

I thought malefic powers already had bonus chances of periling?

it's also worth noting that the frontline gaming report posted

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/warhammer-40k-7th-ed-video-bat-rep-daemons-vs-imperials/

the demon player did not win, it was a draw and the marine list was pretty mediocre.

Also, the guy rolled ridiculously well, someone mathed out what his rolls were and his first turn summoning rolls only had a 7% chance of getting those good of rolls, or in other words he rolled in the upper 93% of what he could roll, that's well above average.

i fail to see how this is broken in any way honestly.

The demon player did not win because he draw terrible objective mission, which is on it self testament of how broken objective cards are, they could just as easily have swung the game and made it even more one sided in the other direction.

Malefic does not have 1 but 3 summoning powers.

 Icelord wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Here are a few reasons why I think it would be bad to put a limit on the max number of Warp Charges.
1] What would be a fair number?
2] Wound this be with or without the d6?
3] Lots of Warp Charges in an Army already have a bad side affect: Perils of the Warp!
4] Some of the Powers people are afraid of are going to quickly dain Warp Charges.
5] It punishes Psyker Armies just for showing up.
>Eldar
>Grey Knights
>Tzeentch Armies

Something will need to be done, Fantasy had the same issue, and even with power dice cap, it still sucked and VC dominated.

I agree we need a change. I think a cap would be fine. For those of you that say it would hurt the other non-summoning armies I would like to see how? Would a cap of 20 (or whatever) really be that bad? I remember 7th ed fantasy demon lists with over 30 casting dice that were so broken. I think the limit in 8th really toned that down. Yes magic is still super powerful but it doesnt make 500+ points of models a turn!

So if you go with 20 you are saying summoning 30 daemons a turn is ok, but no more than that?

As for what it hurts, I already told you daemon shooting which is almost entirely psychic. SO I can if I made a tzeentch heavy army shoot only 7 times with minimal effect, unless I want a very good chance of failing every shot, and I can get denied.

Like I said limit copies of powers if you want to do it not amount of dice. Fantasy has a different system which makes it easier to cast most powers than the 40k equivalent.

and the demon player could have just as easily rolled average, and had more perils and less demons summoned the table so lets not talk about what could be in the realm of randomness.

obviously what was "the omg summoning is going to destroy the meta" power did not determine the outcome of the game.

 Icelord wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Here are a few reasons why I think it would be bad to put a limit on the max number of Warp Charges.
1] What would be a fair number?
2] Wound this be with or without the d6?
3] Lots of Warp Charges in an Army already have a bad side affect: Perils of the Warp!
4] Some of the Powers people are afraid of are going to quickly dain Warp Charges.
5] It punishes Psyker Armies just for showing up.
>Eldar
>Grey Knights
>Tzeentch Armies

Something will need to be done, Fantasy had the same issue, and even with power dice cap, it still sucked and VC dominated.

I agree we need a change. I think a cap would be fine. For those of you that say it would hurt the other non-summoning armies I would like to see how? Would a cap of 20 (or whatever) really be that bad? I remember 7th ed fantasy demon lists with over 30 casting dice that were so broken. I think the limit in 8th really toned that down. Yes magic is still super powerful but it doesnt make 500+ points of models a turn!

It will, particularly for Tzeentch armies that rely on spells for shooting. It now requires 6 dice to cast the spell that Pink Horrors used to fire. 6 and it already wasn't great! Besides that, I still am doubtful of the power level of these guys. Let's say I have about 36 casting dice, that's a total of 6 summonings. That is, at most, 600 points of daemons (although probably not because that's bloodletters and they suck). That is also not involving the 2 on perils which, rolling this many dice is very prone to happening, and, more importantly, even rolling 6 dice is still what, a 75% chance of success if memory serves me? That's far less than last edition and it also means that unit isn't shooting or doing much of anything. Heck, even in several of the videos the spawner starts well with great rolls and then loses. I'm not saying it might be OP I'm just saying not quite so sure if it even needs a nerf.

Oh and aren't Horrors still only ML1 so everybody is playing them wrong? It's a massive nerf that makes horrors worthless but technically their rule to get extra charges is meaningless now.

.

 Random Dude wrote:
If you are a friendly gamer I think it would be perfectly acceptable to impose restrictions. Competitive games will most likely use the exact BRB rules.

Unlikely, they will either be comping it like its been done forever with fantasy or drop 40k entirely.

I'm still not convinced that Summoning is really that broken.

It takes an average of nine dice to conjure one unit.

Nine dice put into WC 1 witchfire powers will get you maybe 4 shooting attacks. There are plenty of witchfire powers which can kill 2-3 lesser daemons every time they go off, so witchfire can generally kill daemons almost as fast as conjuration can make them.

And witchfire isn't the most efficient way of getting shooting attacks by a long shot. Any competitive army should be able to wipe out daemons faster than the daemon factory can make them. It will destroy casual lists, but any nasty build will.

As far as I'm concerned, the major issue with the new psychic phase is that it's another rock-paper-scissors game at army selection. If you take loads of psykers you beat an army with a few psykers, but probably lose out to an army who decided to avoid psykers altogether, who would be at a disadvantage against a small number of psykers... the only 'safe' way to take psykers in a really competitive environment is to make your entire army psykers, which only gives you two armies to choose from.

I think a better solution is to make lots of psykers result in your opponent getting more warp charges as well. That's how it was rumoured to work before 7th edition came out and I think it actually makes more sense. Just total up all the mastery levels on the field and use that for both player's warp charge pools.

If they changed the wording in the daemon codex for generating psychic powers from "may generate up to half", to "must generate up to half" of their powers from their gods tree the daemon factory would be dead.

If Warp Charges couldn't be used to create (fairly powerful and/or decently sized units), I don't think there would be any talk of limiting Warp Charges.

As is, as long as you can use Psychic Powers to effectively make your army bigger (i.e. turn a 1500pt army into a 2200pt army by turn 4 fairly reliably), people are going to want a cap on warp charges.

The other alternative being to do something about Summoning powers directly.

which is a better solution because it doesn't screw everything else as well.

Like I said limiting copies of powers in general would be better.

OR changing how the summoning powers work (make the units non-scoring/non-denial units, make the number summoned random, don't allow them to generate warp charges for the army, require them to roll on a specific psychic tree if psychic) there are plenty of possible fixes.

As I mentioned in another thread, i think the best way to fix deamon-factory is an warpcharge upkeep for summoned units. Let it be a fixed number or maybe you have to roll 3 successes again (without perils) to keep them in the game. If they also cant generate new warp-charges everything is fine.

Another thing to nerf psychic heavy armies a little bit is to give every army the opportunity to buy a one-use item which automatically dispells a psychic power of your choice (like in fantasy). Lets say one costs 15-20 points.

I agree.

Fundamentally, the change to how Psychic Powers work was a nerf to Psychers in general - before, you could cast your powers almost free of any risk with it only being a simple test vs LD 10. Now, you got a real chance to fail the roll plus your enemy can still deny the power.

The problem therefore does not lie within how the system works, the problem are a few vastly overpowered powers, namely:

a) Demon Summoning (mostly when used by Demons).

b) Invisibility

In order to get it balanced again, you would have to nerf these powers or somehow limit their use. Example: change Invisibility to give the unit Shrouded or Stealth instead.

Another issue is being able to spam psykers at low cost.

Get those three main issues fixed and then re-evaluate the state of psykers.

I actually like the change to invisibility, it is super powerful, but the old power started strong in last edition but when many armies blanket ignored cover it simply was not that great. On its own it is perfectly fine, the issue is that it can be used in combination with things like fortune, now perhaps it would have been better if it had been worded something like -3 to WS and BS to a minimum of 1, which has largely the same effect but does not make you invincible to blasts and templates. Which is much fluffier when you think about it, if I fear there being an invisible enemy near by, I'm shooting the area with as many AOE guns as possible.

The old effect perfectly fit the fluff and rules.

Rules-wise, it was good because it gave you a very good bonus on top of a cover save. How could "many armies" ignore cover saves back then? I don't recall denying cover saves being a huge thing in 6th.

Fluff-wisem it was good as well. Invisibility doesn't mean total invisiblity. You would still be able to see footsteps, dust shoved aside, you could still hear the enemies, smell them, etc. And in the grim future of 40k, noone uses Heat Vision!

Invisibility has to be nerfed and it's one of our top bulleting points in regards to the psychic phase. In this case, however, solutions are easy to find, as suggested above. Demon summoning is a lot more difficult to balance out.

it is a bad thing...

people are over reacting, and nerfing all psykers after all psykers just got a huge nerf.


summoning is NOT the big deal people are complaining it is, and most people are basing their assumptions off of one bat rep that isnt even a fair test of the list, and didnt even result in a demon win.

even IF summoning was the be all end all 9(its not), then you need to put a limit on summoned units,

not nerf every other psyker yet again after we just got hit with the nerf bat, kicked in the nerf balls, buried in the nerf forest, and visited by nerf family members crying nerf tears as they place nerf flowers on the grave of our psykers.

I can run a grey knight army with psyrazorbacks and 3 man inquisitor groups in them, for 1016 points, that gives me 28 warp charges. Then I can run deamons who since they start off the table dont have to worry about the 12 inch rule, for 984 points that grant me another 12 dice. Thats 40 warp charge tokens, which I can then use to summon an average of 4 or 5 squads of deamons a turn, with all the trimmings free, which then add even more dice to my warp charge pool. All I have to do is what GW wants me to do, buy their models. And its not even unbound. Now tell me with a straight face "warp charges dont need caps"

 koooaei wrote:
The system is good and reasonable. The problem is codex ballance. Cause previously written casters in codexes were not oriented towards the warpcharge common pool.

The moment henchmen stop generating charges, heralds get limited to ML2 and horrors need 10 models minimum to generate a single WC the problem will be solved. Houserule it. Or wait till new codexes - i'm sure, gw will go that route.

You're attributing competence and intelligence to a company that has none.

 Orock wrote:
I can run a grey knight army with psyrazorbacks and 3 man inquisitor groups in them, for 1016 points, that gives me 28 warp charges. Then I can run deamons who since they start off the table dont have to worry about the 12 inch rule, for 984 points that grant me another 12 dice. Thats 40 warp charge tokens, which I can then use to summon an average of 4 or 5 squads of deamons a turn, with all the trimmings free, which then add even more dice to my warp charge pool. All I have to do is what GW wants me to do, buy their models. And its not even unbound. Now tell me with a straight face "warp charges dont need caps"

This.

Capping it is NOT a bad thing, people. Fantasy has a cap, why shouldn't this? And to the armies to which the cap would matter, you're probably playing Daemons and using the new ultra-cheese list, in which case, should be limited. And if you're playing anyone else, you're probably not even gonna hit it, much less would it hinder you. Unless you spam Primaris psykers or Warlocks or whatever, but then, same point, there needs to be a limit. 12 Warp Charge dice, which includes whatever you roll on the d6, should be a fine limit.

One other thing though, this is coming from the point of view from someone who primarily plays a NON-psychic army. Is it fun to sit there and watch you throw dice around and hope that our measly d6 can roll enough 6s to stop you? No, it's not fun.

 Orock wrote:
I can run a grey knight army with psyrazorbacks and 3 man inquisitor groups in them, for 1016 points, that gives me 28 warp charges. Then I can run deamons who since they start off the table dont have to worry about the 12 inch rule, for 984 points that grant me another 12 dice. Thats 40 warp charge tokens, which I can then use to summon an average of 4 or 5 squads of deamons a turn, with all the trimmings free, which then add even more dice to my warp charge pool. All I have to do is what GW wants me to do, buy their models. And its not even unbound. Now tell me with a straight face "warp charges dont need caps"

I don't think Caps are the salution.
Take away the "Deamon Factory" and you are a just very powerful Psychic Army.

Now without the "Deamon Factory" a 20 point cap hurts your army just for showing up becouse somebody is scared of the Deamon Factory".

No, screw Warp Charge cap. Just because some armies aren't psychic centred like some others why should they be penalised? On top of that they probably pay in excess of 300pts for some of their strong psykers so should they now just be limited?

By the same token we can simply say "I dont like that Tau can shoot more shots and roll more dice in the shooting phase - there should be a cap on how many shots you can fire per turn." Or how about "get rid of Deamon Weapons because my army has no IC that can get more than 5A"

Stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

krodarklorr wrote:
Capping it is NOT a bad thing, people. Fantasy has a cap, why shouldn't this? And to the armies to which the cap would matter, you're probably playing Daemons and using the new ultra-cheese list, in which case, should be limited. And if you're playing anyone else, you're probably not even gonna hit it, much less would it hinder you. Unless you spam Primaris psykers or Warlocks or whatever, but then, same point, there needs to be a limit. 12 Warp Charge dice, which includes whatever you roll on the d6, should be a fine limit.

One other thing though, this is coming from the point of view from someone who primarily plays a NON-psychic army. Is it fun to sit there and watch you throw dice around and hope that our measly d6 can roll enough 6s to stop you? No, it's not fun.

How about armies that have no proper counter to cheese like Triptide and Taudar with all their ignores cover, twinlinked masses of fire or the players who spam all those undercosted T6 FNP double S9AP2 blasts MCs? Do you think it's fun for armies to play against crap like that? Or would you want Tau to rule the Psychic Phase the same way they've ruled the shooting phase for most of 6th? I dont know what armies you play, but Tau (as a good example) need to feel the heat for a change as well....so what if they have pretty much zero Psychic defence/offence? Many other armies will go through another edition without being able to compete against them in the Shooting phase.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The old effect perfectly fit the fluff and rules.

Rules-wise, it was good because it gave you a very good bonus on top of a cover save. How could "many armies" ignore cover saves back then? I don't recall denying cover saves being a huge thing in 6th.

Fluff-wisem it was good as well. Invisibility doesn't mean total invisiblity. You would still be able to see footsteps, dust shoved aside, you could still hear the enemies, smell them, etc. And in the grim future of 40k, noone uses Heat Vision!

Invisibility has to be nerfed and it's one of our top bulleting points in regards to the psychic phase. In this case, however, solutions are easy to find, as suggested above. Demon summoning is a lot more difficult to balance out.

Really you don't recall denying cover saves being a huge thing in 6th? Were we playing the same edition?

Heldrakes = Ignores Cover
Tau = markerlights, and Buff commander (who joined tons of armies giving out ignores cover.)
Eldar = Serpent spam, and possibly perfect timing from a far seer.
Any army with divination had the ability to ignore cover through powers
IG was given ignores cover as an order, and had multiple barrage weapons that gave ignores cover prior to that.

Many armies especially the top armies had ignores cover by the end of the edition. So it was much worse, toward the end. Not bad but situational.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

krodarklorr wrote:
Capping it is NOT a bad thing, people. Fantasy has a cap, why shouldn't this? And to the armies to which the cap would matter, you're probably playing Daemons and using the new ultra-cheese list, in which case, should be limited. And if you're playing anyone else, you're probably not even gonna hit it, much less would it hinder you. Unless you spam Primaris psykers or Warlocks or whatever, but then, same point, there needs to be a limit. 12 Warp Charge dice, which includes whatever you roll on the d6, should be a fine limit.

One other thing though, this is coming from the point of view from someone who primarily plays a NON-psychic army. Is it fun to sit there and watch you throw dice around and hope that our measly d6 can roll enough 6s to stop you? No, it's not fun.

So from someone who runs Daemons and has no thought to spamming Summoning, I still need more than 12 WCs to make a decent army. My shooting is minimal otherwise, so if we cap to 12 Warp Charges can we cap all other armies to shooting with a maximum of 28 shots? Because you know thats about what I'll get out of 12 warp charges. And as someone playing a mostly non-shooting army, is it fun to sit there and watch you throw dice arround, hoping that I can get enough 5+ rolls to stop you from murdering me? No, it's not fun. I mean the only people that this would matter to are the cheese Eldar and Tau players running ultra cheese lists right?

12 including the D6 is an extremely hard nerf. It also if I have high warp charges penalizes me for rolling well on the D6, because say I have 11 Warp charges in my list, rolling anything but a 1 only helps my opponent. SO if we institue this cap can I elect not to roll and give my opponent dtw dice. So I can get 12 WC and against a non-psychic army give them no chance to stop my powers.

Daemon armies that cannot function under that rule
Anything Tzeentch
FMC armies
Screamer star
basically any army that uses psychic buffs at all.

So I'm then left running assault only armies, in a heavy shooting game.

 easysauce wrote:


summoning is NOT the big deal people are complaining it is, and most people are basing their assumptions off of one bat rep that isnt even a fair test of the list, and didnt even result in a demon win.

You do realize that they used a house rule that horrors can't summon? If they hadn't and if the mission cards weren't so silly random, and if their multi-teered terrain wasn't used (which almost no-one has), this would have been a crazy victory for the Daemon player. Even with cards literally stacked against it and with an arm tied behind its back, and on a board that was very hostile... they still almost won.

Defender gets same amount of dice as attacker that way low psychic armies have a chance to both cast and deny any powers.

kingleir wrote:
Defender gets same amount of dice as attacker that way low psychic armies have a chance to both cast and deny any powers.

This is both incredibly silly and ineffective.

Silly because you get more dice just 'cause, ineffective because you need a six for each success they roll.

You'd need twelve dice on average to beat a simple WC 2 power.

 Kain wrote:

kingleir wrote:
Defender gets same amount of dice as attacker that way low psychic armies have a chance to both cast and deny any powers.

This is both incredibly silly and ineffective.

Silly because you get more dice just 'cause, ineffective because you need a six for each success they roll.

You'd need twelve dice on average to beat a simple WC 2 power.

Unless it's a withfire then suddenly you can start ignoring rocks being tossed and magical flames like they don't exist

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Kain wrote:

kingleir wrote:
Defender gets same amount of dice as attacker that way low psychic armies have a chance to both cast and deny any powers.

This is both incredibly silly and ineffective.

Silly because you get more dice just 'cause, ineffective because you need a six for each success they roll.

You'd need twelve dice on average to beat a simple WC 2 power.

Unless it's a withfire then suddenly you can start ignoring rocks being tossed and magical flames like they don't exist

"I reject the reality of this rock and replace it with my own."